Discussion for military and former military personnel
I have noticed that there are a significant number of people on the dp who have a military background. And I know many such people personally, though I have no military background. I have noticed two things about military people...at least those who tend to be supportive of the military.
1. They tend to feel that the US military enlisted men will not execute aggression against the population, and
2. They tend to think that the military is generally a force which acts in the interests of freedom, n.b., all the military bumper stickers: freedom is not free, jet noise, sound of freedom, etc.
There is, of course, an opposing viewpoint which says that having a professional standing army is always a threat to freedom. This viewpoint also points out that it was the domestic army in Germany which executed the greatest atrocities. There was a little discussion of this point on another thread (some nonsense about Glenn Beck), and it was suggested there by loyaltothecrazyuncle (with the support of tessie) that the army was somehow different from other federal forces (e.g., IRS, FBI, BATF) which have executed domestic atrocities. However, it should be pointed out that there has not been widescale domestic deployment of the army, airforce, etc. in domestic "police enforcement" activities. This appears to be changing.
I guess what I'm trying to get to is that when Jefferson said "banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies" he had in mind that having a standing army was undesirable...that an army should only be constituted in the republic in time of war. I am of that opinion myself, and I think a lot of "military thinking" on the issue stems simply from the fact that we have had a well established standing army which is heavily supported by governmental propaganda since the time of the so called civil war. And I wonder if you all are at all likely to change your views on the matter. Or are you really offended at such ideas?
I do respect military training (at least its principle and goals), but we really need to eliminate the professional army and return to the much better idea of defense by the citizenry. We need you guys to drop your loyalty to the crazy uncle, and develop some loyalty to the deeper ideas of the founders. I'll leave the discussion to you all with one last quote:
The country that draws a broad line between its fighting men and its thinking men will find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards. ---Wiliiam F. Butler
handy-spionage-man
handyspy
Armies do fire on their own.
Armies do fire on their own. The British army and navy fired on their fellow citizens here in America.
American military operations against Americans on American soil: Kent State, Waco, Katrina, during the LA riots and I'm sure there have been plenty of others.
The only difference between a military organization and the paramilitary police and law enforcement here in America is in color of their uniforms and organizational names.
Our Constitution has been shredded.
What is an army or military organization? Would anyone fumble words and say the hordes of thousands of federal agents attacking Americans in their homes and business do not constitute an armed force in attack mode? The IRS, DEA, FDA, NEA, Congress, federal courts, FBI and who knows how many other armed raids on Americans happen every day. They raid us, imprison us, seize our property (which includes our rights), brain-dead our children and destroy our businesses whether directly or through nasty legislation as if that makes it all better and for our own good.
And I think they also fired on
veterans after the war who were protesting at the White House. But I was hoping to find more recent examples to demonstrate that even today's soldiers will do what they are ordered. I have no doubts they would shoot people that are armed or not.
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check this
"There is a huge difference between the military enlisted oath and the officer oath of office."
http://defendourfreedoms.us/2009/02/26/military-officer-oath...
You may want to look up Adam Kokesh
He is a leader among Iraqi Vets Against the War. Slowly the military is waking up to American Imperialism.
R3VOLution
This is one of those questions...
that does not have a clear answer. Some will. Some won't. I think all of us here are just giving our best "guess." I still lean towards the military on a large scale, not pulling down on citizens. There are; however, some who will escalate violence by random shootings to "stir up" the crowd. Those could be people on both sides and should be dealt with quickly. An armed revolution is a bad idea any way you see it. There has to be a better way and I think the economic collapse will be the catalyst.
Would our military fire on us?
Do you remember Kent State? National Guard firing on students.
The answer is yes, they will fire on us. The only question is what kind of crap will they be told to make them do so. But, make no mistake, they will fire when ordered.
Are there other examples?
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Reading a little history right now....
and sad to say...it has happened before...on a much bigger scale than kent state....during the draft riots of 1863 federal troops were called in by Lincoln - fired on rioters, killing and wounding over a Thousand.
“Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without.” - Odin
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
Logic
Did you ever get your base survey completed? Very interested in the results of the opinions of today's soldiers.
No, because nobody showed
No, because nobody showed any interest...I asked in this and another thread and nobody seemed to care so I figured peoples minds were made up...But now that I at least have one other person aside from myself showing an interest, I will get this done...
http://www.lp.org/
http://mises.org/
The gonzos got away with Waco...
because the media brainwashed the public about Koresh and the Davidians. Soldiers in Nam who didn't want to obey officer's genocidal orders simply fragged the officers. Remember, a guy with a gun will point it depending upon what he believes is in his best interests. Our job is convincing him not to point it at us.
The military at Waco?...
I was under the impression that had been a BATF/FBI massacre....Federal Police ... where in the constitution does it say the federal government can have its own police force?......
“Let a man never stir on his road a step without his weapons of war; for unsure is the knowing when need shall arise of a spear on the way without.” - Odin
Fellow Veterans, This Is A Call To Arms!
http://www.facebook.com/events/192677970828185/
February 20, 2012 - Veterans For Ron Paul March on D.C.!
Here's
what the Feds admit: (1) The army was involved with the high level planning and had meetings with Janet Reno before the assault. (2) The heavy weapons (including 10 Bradleys and 2 tanks) were from Ft. Hood Texas, which was under the command of Wesley Clark. (3) Elements of the army (as well as other international forces) were observers as a training exercise.
Comments/questions: (1) It is conjectured that the actual planner was Wesley Clark, though that is denied by Clark's spokespeople; they say that lower ranking officers gave the OK to release the equipment. (2) Do you think the army released that kind of equipment for domestic use without the operators and support personnel? (3) Even assuming the army was peripheral, and the BATF/FBI goons were driving the tanks, why was the army standing by and facilitating? AND (4) It has been "proven" in a recent documentary that elements of the army's Delta unit were there operating the equipment and carrying out the mission; they are identified in film long hidden by the government but now released---they have patches covering their names and other identifying marks on their uniforms, but allegedly the identification is solid.
That is a summary, but you can find out all that easily (and more) if you do some research.
Make sure you research prisonplanet,
abovetopsecret,
and don't forget the 'straight from the horse's ass' -
Sorcha Faal !
question
I posted below a response/question for tessie which seems to have been forgotten. I include it here again for the consideration of all posters below giving assurances concerning the commitment of the military to the constitution and its ability to defend it. (I also fixed some spelling mistakes and added one last sentence.)
I would also suggest that anyone wishing the citizens of the united States to take some of the assurances below seriously, will have to address the military involvement at Waco. You can find out about that involvement easily by typing "waco massacre clark" into google.
=======================
response/question for tessie:
"If someone decides they want to wipe out innocent American civilians..."
Bill Clinton and his administration decided they wanted to wipe out some innocent civilians in Waco, and they did it.
No one went after their asses. In fact, those same people in the military who took that same oath to which many of the posters here refer...helped in the massacre. At the very least, they provided ten Bradley fighting vehicles and two Abrams tanks to be used in the massacre. It is also alleged that the Army's leadership helped plan the assault, and that the Delta Force helped carry it out. As far as I can tell, all the accusations are valid.
I'm glad, Tessie, that you are willing to defend the constitution. However, I think there is somehow a difference between your commitment as an individual, and the actual practical response of a standing army as an organization committed to the federal tyranny and directly answerable to it.
This thread is certainly not intended as an attack on individuals in the military. But I think it is fair to recognize that the federal military is unconstitutional in its present form (i.e., when there is no declared war). Now maybe some other posters, e.g., Zak, have a good point when they say that the constitution has been made obsolete by modern techniques of warfare. My view is that the basic principle is still valid. Maybe we need to start with the idea of having the defense of the country dispersed among the citizens rather than concentrated in a professional military as a bedrock assumption. I'm not denying the concerns about having an effective defense, but if private citizens need to own more serious weapons and train to operate them etc., maybe we should think in terms of making that happen, or at least in terms of moving in that direction.
Certainly maintaining the world empire that we maintain with our military is not in the interests of freedom. And when Waco style attacks become commonplace---as seems very likely at some stage, I think we have a good indication of the role that will be played by the military as an organization.
So, can you answer this question: Where were all the military people and their oaths during Waco? Who went after Clinton's ass? What about
Wesley Clark?
Not military myself but have
Not military myself but have lived around the military. My Dad was a WWII Master Sgt. He always said the officers better get their Sergeants behind them because they would make or break the officers. At ground level the sergeants pretty much run things. A good officer listens to them and works hard to earn their trust.
BTW, being an officer does not automatically make a person immune to reason. I am sure that ordered to fire on Americans, many officers will also refuse.
Pat
BOHICA!!
Pat
BOHICA!!
It upsets me to see so many
It upsets me to see so many comments from people saying that we'll follow any orders given like we're robots or don't have the mental capacity to think for ourselves..I can assure you..that in alot of cases yes..orders would surely be followed..but orders to kill our own citizens would not be carried out by most..I'm going to do this place a small favor..I will go around the rest of the week and survey the troops here and see how many of them would fire on their own countrymen if given the order..I'll post my results at the end of the week...
http://www.lp.org/
http://mises.org/
Might read this...this says a lot
http://www.knology.net:80/~bilrum/UN29palms.htm ...still in doubt..?
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master... George Washington
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master... George Washington
The National Guard is the Answer to this Question
Article I Sec 8 of the Constitution allows Congress to train, equip, and discipline a militia (national guard) at all times. This force is supposed to replace the standing army when no declared war is ongoing. I have written extensively about his issue on my campaign website http://www.rjharris2010.com/ because returning to a constitutional military is one of my platform issues.
Comparatively to the Army/Airforce, the Navy and Marines are perpetually funded and always available to the President but if the he/she gets out of line in how he/she is using them then the Congress can reduce their funding.
RJ Harris
Norman, OK
US Congressional Candidate
OK Militia Veteran; Eighteenth Year
OU Law; First Year
Strength and Honor
RJ Harris
Constitutional Libertarian
www.harrisforoklahoma.com
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/RJ-Harris/128692249103
I have a question for military folks...
I am not in, although tried 3 times to join but was always turned away for having an RK surgery back when it was considered experimental. (After 9-11 they wanted me sooo bad...too late).
Back to my question.
What is a LORAN station? There is one on the Cali./NV/Az border:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=...
***What is with the unusual station formation???***
I also found this: http://www.loran.org/
"Indeed, it is the work of the pilots, navigators, and radio-navigation experts whose papers, all positive, have achieved success. I salute this dedicated band of true believers and offer my thanks.
The world - ALL COUNTRIES ON ALL SIDES OF THE POLITICAL DIVISIONS - will soon be a safer place.
Now, in an instant, we are suddenly members of the establishment! We will have to learn how to be respectable. For me, this will require some effort. It’s not in my DNA.
For the future, the opportunities are boundless. We now begin the search for applications. Aviation, maritime, land navigation, military, telecom - almost everywhere GNSS goes LORAN can follow as a complementary companion. LORAN and GNSS - a partnership made in radio-navigation - pardon me - PNT heaven.
The work has already begun. As a dedicated Europhile, I am pleased that the Europeans are leading the way. The Americans have been stalled in recent years. Now our vessel is away from the dock and underway.
The details of the US decision - funding, management, etc. - are still a bit unclear and I won’t attempt to predict the specifics. By the end of the year 2008 we will know more. But we can be certain that all 24 LORSTAS will continue, modernization will continue, several new transmitters will be built, and one or two may be relocated. It is also almost certain that the LORSTAS will be automated and de-manned, as the Europeans have been doing for years. Private companies take notice.'
http://www.loran.org/
>>> I guess I just would like it explained in more laymans terms. The lights in the desert are eerie at night which led me to try to research them.
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
Maybe
some day folks will know...
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
I just love semantics, don’t you?
Alright, I’ll play. I’m former military as well, and yes, I have pondered over many a glass of fine liquor over many evenings. Before we tear into the heart of the matter, it is important to lay out the details in a sort of paint-by-numbers way.
I am an ethical person, but I am not a moral one at all. Are you confused already? I can assure you I am not playing a word game here; I do see a distinct difference between the two. In order to bring an Oath into debate as this thread does, we must first define ethics and morality in context.
Ethics is the personal choosing of principles of conduct as a guiding philosophy. This often results in a personal code of conduct that exceeds the moral standard.
Morality as a concept is agreement and conformation to a socially accepted standard governed by a collective school of thought- be it political, social or religious. Morality has long proven to change with the times and often results in inequity. This creates a problem to me as it paints a broad stroke over conduct rather than dealing with the situational concerns of the moment. One may find it ethical to steal food out of necessity when starving, but morality dictates theft is wrong in any case. So you can have personal choice, or you can conform. Conforming hinders the prime rule of natural law, which is survival.
Now that we have the groundwork, let’s move on to the crux of the matter. Is the oath to defend the constitution still valid? My answer is No.
First, I am no longer under the UCMJ, nor am I still under command of the Commandant of the Marine Corps. I no longer have a ‘duty’ to do a damn thing for either of them.
Furthermore, in the strictest sense, the Constitution as I understood and recognized it no longer exists. They have broken their word and nullified their end of the bargain. They have removed their half of consideration and there is no longer a meeting of the minds. The contract, or Oath, is void.
By this reasoning, I have removed my personal obligation to support and defend the Constitution and I will not honor that oath because the item in question no longer exists. However, I do have an ethical oath and responsibility to RESTORE the Constitution to its rightful place. I am an American citizen, and I have an ethical responsibility to help my fellow countrymen who are being assaulted by the atrocities of a rogue government. It is mere happenstance that I am former military.
So, before everyone gets into a bind over who is doing the right thing and who isn’t, and what service members should or should not do, I would recommend you re-evaluate your true standing before subscribing to an idea.
Typical Military Mind
This is exactly why the population has a right to be worried about the members of the military. The claim to be ethical without being moral is retarded. Your definition of morality is both wrong and frightening and shows that you have a complete lack of understanding of morality or Natural Law. This is what passes for people who are in the military. You should be ashamed of yourself. People who believe this garbage spewed here are capable of any atrocity against anyone. Fear your military, it is well justified!
I side with MW.
And since you can't bring reason as to why he's wrong other than name call and admonishment of what you opinionate to be right then I feel it's time for you to step it up son, you've only been here a week and your argument validity is poor. Bring facts and understanding.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
" adonismhemt "
The attempt to use big words is a bad fit.
Guys..I don't have alot of
Guys..I don't have alot of time this morning, I have to get to work..But I just wanted to respond real quick to some of the posts here..Some of you are way off..Just because the troops are ordered to do something does not mean they will..they still know right from wrong..You will have some that will follw orders no matter what...But I know for a fact that there are many who will not..Also...I just read a post, I think it was tessie? About the oficers having the control and what they say goes and hopefully they will do what's right...Well, not to toot my own horn..But I have...and always have had..more respect from troops that I know than any officer I've been around except maybe a select few...It's the enlisted men who truly run things...without us the military would be screwed..Officers push the pens..we push the boots...Give me 10 men and an officer...by the end of the day 8 of them are with me..the officer can have the other 2...
http://www.lp.org/
http://mises.org/
You're right
about who does the work in the trenches and there's no doubt about the honor of the enlisted men..but it is ultimately the officers who give the orders. It's my observation that enlisted men rarely disobey orders. Are you claiming that you can take a group of 10 enlisted men and convince 8 of them to disobey a commanding officer? Not talking about who they respect, or like more...but who's orders they follow...yours or the officers?
Now that's power.
^^^That is EXACTLY what I'm
^^^That is EXACTLY what I'm saying...I've done it hundreds of times before and over much less important things..Orders and respect go hand in hand..because if I don't respect someone it leads me to question those orders..especially if they make no sense...If I have an E-6 through E-9 give me orders that conflict with an O-6 but make more sense to me..I will follow that E-6..Because it's us that no how to do our jobs..not them....I'm not going to take the word of some kid, in a war zone or anywhere else for that matter, that just got out of college over someone that's been in the military for 15 years...
But..I'm also very persuasive..so I get people to do alot of things that they normally wouldn't..lol
http://www.lp.org/
http://mises.org/
You evidently didn't serve with me then, LOL
I cannot count how many times I politely told an officer to go to hell and did my own thing. I was funny like that. If I thought they were screwed up, I'd acknowledge what they wanted, leave, promptly ignore it, and do what really needed to be done. It's risky as hell to do and can land you in the brig, but if done right it can pay off. We grunts call it 'persuading the management,' and it happens a lot.
It's also unfortunately double-edged. They may give an order that is completely illogical, and done because there is something else going on at the command level or theater level that DOES make sense, and they need you to follow the illogical order to make it work. So, it pays to ask the Gunny, or better yet the grizzled old Sgt Major actually running the show and making it look like the Officer is doing it, what's really going on. Word travels fast in a combat unit and it isn't hard to figure out what's up.
This response
is for both you and Logic. I did not "serve" in the military...I am a female. However I have 4 brothers that have...one in the Air Force, one in the Marines, and two in the Army...it has been about 30-40 years though since they served. If I am understanding the comments made by both of you (Logic can get 8 enlisted men to disobey an officer and to follow him...and you frequently told officers to go to h*** and did your own thing), then apparently, enlisted men do as they please and officers are pointless. Somehow I don't feel comforted knowing this is how our "current"? military is conducted. It is even more concerning if Martial Law was ever called in this country (my original topic below). That scenario was scary enough - but now, it is even more so. Every little platoon of enlisted soldiers would do as "they" so decided among themselves to do because our officers are all idiots? Sheesh