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I need help with a debate...

I have been trying to teach my friend about how the US foreign policy has caused hatred for us, leading up to the 9/11 attacks. I have read a lot about the issue, but I can't remember where. I need specifics.

here is his question:
"What did we do? that caused them to fly airplanes into civilian buildings murdering thousands? I'm looking for specifics not generalities; you have an opportunity here to sway me."

and I will need references



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Start with what Bin Laden said about his motives.

The perp himself said he attacked the WTC because he was enraged at the idea of US troops being stationed in Saudi Arabia.

-jcr

"The problem with trying to child-proof the world, is that it makes people neglect the far more important task of world-proofing the child." -- Hugh Daniel

Look up the Shah of Iran...

Look up OPEC.
Look at the creation of Israel.
Look at our support of US friendly tyrants like Saddam Hussein.
Look at how we fund and arms both sides.
Look at the middle east and see our fingerprints everywhere.

The fact that your friend is arguing at all make me question his intelligence. I think, short of drilling a hole in his noggin and pouring truth in, you will be wasting your time.

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

Use this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

Bin Laden's Letter To America

"(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us...."

Read on.

Michael Scheuer Video

Here is a good video for you...would post more but am in a rush!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOEj0_cOWR8

*****
"I truly wish that real life would no longer surpass the worst excesses of my nightmarish imaginings... Arthur Silber **

"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd

Read "The Revolution a Manifesto"...

Don't remember who wrote it but, his initials start with Ron Paul!

agreed

more than enough arguments and talking points

Start with

- The occupation of their homeland and the "westernization" taking place.

- The embargo on Iraq that caused children to die of preventable ailments.

- Our unwavering support for Israel as they kill and take land.

However, 9-11 was an inside job...had to do it.

Trick question, right?

Trick question, right?

Ron Paul mentions a book and author that ...

researched every single suicide attack ...

This book will have your answer in it ...

But I do not recall the name or the author.

WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994

They percieve us as a threat to their way of life.

We overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in the 50s.

We have armed oppressive states such as Iran, and Iraq.

We supported Sadam Hussein, and helped him rise to power.

Here is one of the juicier tidbits.
"Hussein's first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qassim.[3]"

Basically we've been screwing with them ever since World War II ended, and some of them are sick of it. Power hungry war mongers, religious zealots and other idiots point to what we've done over there and use it to unify their people. Most of it is done (in my opinion) out of political convenience, its always easier to blame 'the Jews' or the 'greedy capitalists' than it is to own up to the fact that your country sucks because you've mad some really dumb decisions. Sadly though some weak minded/crazy/extremely vengeful individuals get caught up in the propaganda and then come over and blow up buildings.

If we want to delegitimize their version of collective punishment (Terrorist bombings), then we need to stop practicing our version of collective punishment (Aggressive wars aimed at effecting regime change in countries that have nothing to do with our terrorist enemies, and indiscriminant areal bombardments that inflict civilian casualties.)

Terrorism is perpetrated by small groups of criminals. If we do not treat it as a criminal issue then we A. will be inefficient when it comes to tracking them down, and B. will simply provide our foes with more propaganda to use against us.

Keep it Simple

We built oil refineries over there on U.S taxpayers dollar and then gifted them over to the Saudi Princes. Remember 90% of the Al Qaeda were Saudi. #1

When the Princes rose to ever higher power many of the Mullahs (spiritual leaders) saw an opportunity to increase their congregation and got on the Saudi "dole." At this time we also decided to back the Khazar Jews (white 15th century jewish converts) in their hostile take over of Palestine #2

Mullahs (like Congressman being subsidized by lobbyist) began in-fighting amongst each other -- religious factions grew by quite a bit by the mid-70's -- a few rebel groups came out of this. #3

We replaced the Shah of Iran with the Ayetollah and ushered in Radical Islam (as he purged Iran and threw it back into the 9th century). #4

The CIA trained Afghans against Russia (bin Laden was part of this group) -- CIA also backed and trained Hussein to take over Iraq and to fight Iran (the Ayetollah broke his deal with Jimmy Carter so this was pay back). #5 and #6

After years of "secret alliance" with Hussein we turned on him when he went after Kuwait (he was building a monopoly oil position and trying to get ownership of what would later become a huge pipe line). #7

We turned on bin Laden and on Hussein -- trying to assassinate the former and villify the later. We also tried to cut Hussein (disproportionately) out of oil profits -- We created a military dictatorship with a penache for cruelty and sexual perversion (who knew?). #8

Continued backing of Wahhabi Muslims in Africa and Saudi Arabia as they push for one-world Islam. Additionally giving 3B per year in direct cash to Israel and then giving $30B per year spread over all Islamic factions -- double-tripple-quadruple dealings. Israel gets way more than both of these numbers if you add in military or industrial contracts, patent protection, and market penetration. #9

The biggest and un-spoken one is forcing Arab nations to trade oil in U.S Fiat Currency. Not letting them develop an oil backed currency -- and thus we get a free interest rate ride (our real source of wealth and advantage). The Bankers only care about interest and fiat credit -- this is how they control the world. #10

Lastly the Wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the continuel arming of Israel (ad infinitum). #11

I think that sums it up and it is so generalized that no one could really argue against it.

You don't need specifics -- this is all common knowledge.

OctoBox needs a little more reading of History..

1st "We" didn't develop the Saudi Oil Fields... Standard Oil did, through contracts w/ the Saudi King. When the Oil profits became large enough to purchase the infastructure those Fields were "Nationalised" by the Saudi King and Standard Oil was paid off (unlike Chavez version of Nationalising. which means take).

2nd The Internal Politics of Saudi Princess and Mullahs had very little to do w/ the US except the fact we purchased their Oil. BTW...Israel became a nation all on it's own, most notably begining w/ the 2nd Jewish Migration begining in 1850..again, nothing to do w/ the US.

3rd.. Again please don't confuse a Nations internal politics w/ the US. Internal infighting of the Mullahs had little to do w/ the US, spare the point of our oil purchases.

4th "We replaced the Elected Government of Iran with the Shah and ushered in Radical Islam (as he purged Iran and threw it back into the 9th century)." << kinda/sorta
Yes we did through, Military coup install the Shah of Iran. However the Idea that he threw Iran back to the 9th Century doesn't even pass the Giggle Test. The Modernasation of Iran and expansion of their economy is actually what took place over the next 3 decades. Tehran became a becon of Universities, Business and personal freedoms we generally assoicate w/ the West. Not that the Shah was perfect, but he did do many things that brought Iran into the 20th Century. It wasn't until the Islamic Revolution in '79 that Iran was thrown back to the 9th Century.

#5 & 6 Yes, the US supplied, trained and funded the Mudjahadeen organisation of which Bin Laden was a 2 bit player. Not exactly the same as funding and training Bin Laden or Al Queda. However, we had NOTHING to do w/ Saddams rise to power in the '70s. Saddam took over power from his Uncle who raised him. Saddam didn't need one bit of US help to accomplish that.

#7 I have no real problem with.

#8 We turned on Saddam and Bin Laden. Yes, we flipped on Saddam to protect BP in Kuwait (ultimately to protect European supply lines). No we didn't turn on Bin Laden, because we were never Allied w/. Bin Laden. As I said earlier Bin Laden was a 2 bit player of Mujhadeen and had next to no direct contact w/ the US Aid or CIA support. Bin Laden like Hussein was a creature of his own creation.

#9 to this point, I agree Muslims are mad because we fund Israel, even though we fund them as well.

#10 No one forces Arab Nations to trade their Oil in US Dollars. This is something they choose to do and are choosing to undo currently (see Gulf Dinar or GCC Dinar)

#11 Again I agree, and could have been your entire post. They are mad because we are bombing 2 Muslim Countries and we also give funding and aid to their eternal enemy the Nation of Israel.

I would like to say I am not a big supporter of the US foreign policy, quite the opposite. I do like to understand history though. I feel it's important to be accurate when trying to understand where we are today. While the US is certainly not with out responsiblilty, often times tyrants, dictators and terrorist do actually come to power with out any help for Uncle Sam at all. Remembering this is also important.

This goes back hundreds of

This goes back hundreds of years... its just not the US but what the europeans did before us. If you really want this answered I suggest you buy the book called the 1000 year war by Richard Maybury.
www.chaostan.com you will understand exactly what Ron Paul and Richard are talking about..
The Thousand Year War
in the Mideast
by Richard J. Maybury

The Thousand Year War in the Mideast has been the cause of great shocks to our economy and investment markets, including the oil embargoes, the Iranian hostage crisis, the Iraq-Kuwait war, and the Caucasus Wars over the Caspian Sea oil basin. It is likely to remain so for decades to come. Forewarned is forearmed. To successfully manage your career, business and investments you must understand this war.

Ages 14 to 94. 271 pages, quality paperback. $17.95
ISBN 0-942617-32-0

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"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson

I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain

Bin Laden

said he was upset that we had military base in Saudi Arabia. He cited this a reason to attack us on 9/11. Note that most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Even the neo-conservative Wolfowitz acknowledged this, as immediately after 9/11 he succesfully persuaded the President to close down that base and bring the troops home. It's not necessarily they we were doing anything evil over there, but simply that we were there. For a variety of reasons, the presence of American troops over there on their "holy land" inflames them. Dr. Paul's position is that we don't have any good reason to be over there in the first place. It's just a waste of money. So we might as well close all the military bases over there and bring all the troops home. It's a lot cheaper way, in terms of money and lives, and more effective to stop terrorism than to have wars. Sending troops over there just perpetuates it, needlessly.

-------
The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul

RP Reading List

Ron Paul Reading List on YouTube lead for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhjfuBYw8Ko

Dying to Win
Blowback
911 Commission Report
Empirial Hubris

Helped overthrow democratic

Helped overthrow democratic government in Iran and put in place a vicious dictator. This led to a rebirth of radical Islam with the Iranian Revolution years later.

Supported Saddam's massacre of Iranians in Iran/Iraq war w/ weapons of mass destruction.

Built bases and stationed troops in Saudi Arabia.

Put embargo on Iraq that led to the deaths of 500,000 children

Support Israel(unfairly? I dont know)

Ventura 2012

That person needs to get a computer with the Google

he could type "us foreign policy leads to terrorism" and get all kinds of information. I'm not sure where you buy the Google, but it's real nice.

wow!

you're in A MOOD today!!

You noticed huh.

I have an 88 inch tall van to wrap and a 80 inch tall bay door to get it in. I can't get in touch with the guy with the keys to the 120 inch door. grrrr.

Republicae's picture

That may prove to be the

That may prove to be the ultimate tight squeeze wouldn't you say?

http://www.1776solution.blogspot.com

"The Truth is not always comfortable, but it is always safe" - H. W. Johnstone

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"We are not a nation, but a union, a confederacy of equal and sovereign States" John C. Calhoun