People here use the word Communism too lightly..
Its sad that most who use the term have no clue what it actually means.. Dennis Kucinich is NOT a communist..
From Wikipedia..
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production.
No where is DK advocating this.. SO JUST STOP this Partisan labeling.. it is not productive. You may disagree how to help the unfortunate and or most vulnerable in our sociity but you should not label him lilke people lable Ron Pauls supporters Terrorists..
So dont Glenn Beck him...
P.S. Next you will be calling the First century Christians Communists.. Read Acts.. everyone sold thier possessions and divided it equally.. That is more akin to the definition of Communisim than DK is.. So just stop already.. its sad that people just label people.. i.e. DK is a communist, Democrates are communists.. Jesus is a Communist, Ron paul supporters are terrorists.. blah blah.. its all ingorant speak..sad.
All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Acts 2:44-45)
There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
(Acts 4:34-37)
Sorry I am so Critical but how can you expect to stay above the tactics of the likes of Gleen Beck when your ooing it...
According to Panarchy/Anarchy
According to an Anarchist the word Communism can never be used too lightly.
If we must have a ruler over our country it should be Ron Paul because nobody else will do!
Men can govern themselves better than they can govern one another!
Self Government is peaceful because it is based on Love the highest motivator!
The Revolution Continues at http://nationbuilder.org
educational cartoon
If you haven't seen this yet, it's an old cartoon with a valuable lesson about freedom...despite the fact that our country is made of people who lean left and right and so forth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhDgnzEAmvY
First time Ive seen that.
Cant wait till my son is old enough to watch.
This link should clear things up
World Ideologies As Explained By Reference To Cows
http://www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/misc/world_ideolo...
very fun
This was a very fun link!
Better To Use Clearer Terms
The proper polar opposites are Liberty vs Slavery or politically Freedom vs Statism. When using the term Communist to apply to a person this just screws things up. Today the proper term would be Socialist as this term applies to GWB, Hillary, Rudy, Obama ........ Stalin, Hitler.
Ron Paul is NOT a socialist.
Jim ODonnell
Jim ODonnell
Am I in America
Is this conversation really taking place in my country? Am i actually hearing Americans fight over which is better Communism Socialism or Fascism? Have you guys lost your mind? What happend to Capitalism Has the ladder been broken so long that you all forget what it is. In any of these other system the government holds the power over people. The ladder has a top rung and a bottom rung. In Capitalism at least you have a ladder with all the rungs. Sure it might be hard to break through barriers, but at least you have a chance at changing your social class. In all these other systems where your born is where you'll stay. Come on people you claim to be so awake. WAKE UP! No matter how much you distrust Corp. they are not near as strong if they don't have government helping them. I don't care who you like Democrat or Republican. To talk about any of these systems being better than capitalism in my book is treason, un-American, plain madness. An america that is not 100% Capitalist is not America. Where do you people get this garbage. At school (drop out), from parents (move out or run away), at work (quit), from spouse (get a divorce). I've voted for Dems. and Rep. And can't stand either. And the liberatarians need to get their act together and choose a stinking platform that doesn't range from anarchy to Corp. tyranny. Capitalism has to have some regulation, but I agree with RP that property rights take care of a large part of these regulations. The only reason they are trying to kill Capitalism is when America has it up and running there is no one that can compete with us in the world. Look at china folks their industry is capitalist based. Everyone in this chat that lives in the United States is living a good life because of Capitalism. It has taken the Federal Reserve almost 100 years to deplete or wealth. You mean to tell me you are going to fall for the Federal Reserves trick of trying to make you believe it is because of capitalism your lives are getting harder. Come on I thought Americans were smarter than that. The elite (which are elite because of Capitalism) always knew that they could never have a world dominion as long as the US was capitalist. They either have to raise every other country up to our level or tare us down to theirs. Their doing both folks. I promise you once there is a world government and a world economy and a world religion It will be fascist (government and Corp. working together) and it will be socialist (They will give you food and clothing and tools to work with and maybe a place to sleep) but their economy of coice will be Capitalist (and you will not be part of it because only the elite class will be aloud to buy and sell and geuss what they will want to both, have low prices and at the same time make lots of money doing absolutly no work). You are getting ready to see the largest slave trade in the history of this planet, while you set here and fight about whos evil thinking is better. As for religion You'll worship the one that holds your life and Identity in his hand Your master. Come on WAKE THE HELL UP PEOPLE! This is not me against you. This is us against them.
This is about people vs monsters (madmen).
Communism
My wife grew up under communism.
All of you are being stupid. I've lived in many former soviet countries and can tell you that their medicine is just as good as ours and at least 1/10th or less the cost.
A couple of times I went to the hospital and there was never a set charge. You kinda just paid the doctor what you thought. Usually about 10 -50 grivnes. (2-10 dollars) . This was not socialized medicine, but after the fall and totally free market.
No regulation at all. I was on dialysis at the time and the cost was 30 bucks a treatment with better equipment than we use here. Here it is 400 plus a treatment and they re-use the artificial kidney.
Not everything is black and white. Communism is a different beast than socialism / facism. The problem is that many communist states turned socialist / facist. Just as our republic is turning socialist / facist.
Facism is the merger of corporate and government power according to Mussolini.
Too Bad
The only consideration is not the point of service price for the consumer of healthcare.
Indeed
The money you hand over the counter is not the cost of the health care and anecdotes about cheap services don't do anything to prove the merits of one form of government over another, though as long as we're at it, here's one:
http://dailypaul.com/node/8776
Labels
Communist, Socialist, Liberal, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Conservative - all labels, and all meaningless.
--"You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream -- the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order -- or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. Regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would sacrifice freedom for security have embarked on this downward path. Plutarch warned, "The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits."--
Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils. - General John Stark
Draw not your strength from government, but from the voices they abuse. - Dave King
Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst of Evils.
Handing out the USA Today ad in the mall.
I made fifty copies of the USA Today ad on legal size paper and took them to our local shopping mall. At first I left a few on the tables by benchs where people come and rest.
Then I noticed that a lot of men were sitting around waiting for other family members. So I just started going up to them and asking if they wanted something to read while they waited. The response was very positive and I handed out all fifty in less than an hour.
When I wandered back though the mall I saw many of the handouts being read. I think Trevor Lyman is correct, we just need to get more people aware of Ron Paul by going out and beating the bushes. (No pun intended.:-)
Tom
Kucinich's definition
The point is that this is a Ron Paul site dedicated to Ron Paul. This is a site where we discuss Ron Paul and his ideas of liberty and Constitutional Government.
Kucinich wants to take away our right to keep and bear arms. Just that one ideology of his is enough.
Now, I hope I don't read any more posts about Mr. K.
Go Ron Paul.
Go buy a couple of window chalk at the local 5&10 and make your vehicle a roving media outlet for Ron Paul.
In Liberty's Cause
What does it take to have a communist state?
Why don't we ask the men that defined communism, Marx and Engels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto
They were asked, "If you started from a blank slate, what are the things you would need to construct a communist society?" They came up with 10 things you would need. Those are the 10 Planks of Communism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#10_Plan...
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Texas is the only state that allows people to own land in allodial title, and very few do. If you "own land" in any other state, you don't "own land"--you go to a real estate agent and you own real estate. You pay property taxes--rent--on that land. Those taxes go to the state to be redistributed for public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Read your tax return.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
Estate tax.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Try to leave the country with more than $10,000. See if they let you.
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Federal Reserve Bank: a private bank (like Federal Express) that meets in secret and has never been audited--and controls the value of your dollar. They were established and operate unconstitutionally. Competing currencies? Read about the recent raids on the Liberty Dollar.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
Interstate highway system. FCC. DOT. TSA. Telecom duopoly.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Department of Agriculture. Farm subsidies. Corporate welfare. Military-Industrial complex.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Department of Agriculture. Farm subsidies. Selective Services.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
Suburban sprawl. The interstate highway system. Oil subsidies. Auto industry subsidies. Factory farms.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Department of Education. No Child Left Behind. Child labor laws. Public schools.
Now certainly, not all of those things in all of their manifestations are by themselves inherently evil. And certainly, there are degrees to which a country can be classified as communist. But communism was defined by Marx and Engels. The above is the concise definition. There is no denying that the United States is communist to some degree, and arguably to a great degree.
Just because a term has been abused in the past to smear some person, party, or policy, does not mean that you can't ever use that term to accurately describe actual instances of the thing in question. You have to call a spade a spade. And it behooves everyone, particularly people who are partial to airing their thoughts in lively discourse, particularly in those media published instantly to the world, particularly in those venues that have an association, official or otherwise, with someone devoting their lives to the patriot's task, to know the meanings of the words they use.
And as long as we're classifying the United States in its current condition, we may as well also note here that it can accurately be described as becoming increasingly fascist as well. Again, this is not hyperbole. Naomi Wolf wrote a great book, The End of America, that describes the 10 steps any would-be despot takes when transforming a free society into a dictatorship. Here's an article that distills it down, though you ought to read the book as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html
1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
Of course we all know what this is: the ever-amorphous Terrorism. It's everywhere. It's nowhere. It's inescapable. It's undefeatable. Be afraid, be very afraid. What is the threat level today? What's your emergency plan?
2. Create a gulag
Guantanamo. Solitary confinement. Cruel and unusual punishment. "Enhanced interrogation methods." Torture. Simulated death. Waterboarding.
3. Develop a thug caste
Blackwater. They're in Iraq. They were in New Orleans. They were in Florida last election. They've got immunity from the law. They're big, they're mean, and they've got the weapons. They just got a contract for a billion dollars to "expand their presence at home."
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
Patriot Act. Military Commissions Act. Wiretaps. Email surveillance. Blanket warrants. Closed-circuit cameras. Telecom immunity.
5. Harass citizens' groups
The Department of Defense Counterintelligence Field Activity Agency. Anti-war organizations are "terroristic."
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
Transportation Security Administration. Airport security. "The list."
7. Target key individuals
The firing of the eight US attorneys. The censure of university professors.
8. Control the press
Valerie Plame. Arrests of journalists. Unembedded journalists being fired upon in Iraq.
9. Dissent equals treason
Military Commissions Act. "Unlawful enemy combatant"--on the president's say-so alone.
10. Suspend the rule of law
Defense Authorization Act. FEMA. Presidential directives concerning the continuance of government in the event of a national emergency--on the president's say-so alone. Suspension of Posse Comitatus. Suspension of Habeas Corpus.
"How dare you call the United States fascist!"
If we continue to shut out all honest discussion of the real issues because our rhetoric prevents us from facing the facts, by the time it becomes undeniable it will be too late in the game. Call a spade a spade.
And if you are going to rail on people for misusing words, at least have the decency to know what they mean yourself. If you're going to tell people that what they're saying is "ignorant speak," you'd better do it in complete sentences with proper spelling and punctuation. Let's raise the level of the discourse, shall we?
http://www.wakingup.us
Thank you
Thank you
Thank
You
ALSO
I would like to know how we are doing the same thing as Beck. There hasnt been one violent act associated with RP supporters. The November 5th V for Vendetta link was apt seeing the plot of the movie was one man spreading an idea of liberty that eventually caught on and overturned a tyrannical government. Becks comments where dishonest at best and slanderous at worse.
We use the term socialist or commie anytime we recognize ideology that seeks to give the state or collective supreme power and ownership over the individual. It really makes no difference to me what you call it. So you see you are wrong. Your whole premise is bullshit. I would much prefer you stay over at kos than come here and try to libel us with these types of comments.
labels
I don't have a sophisticated understanding of all the labels we use for ourselves and our opponents, but I can assure you this:
Some of the people who support Kucinich will turn their attention to Ron Paul because of his strong foreign policy against the occupation of Iraq.
They will turn their attention to Ron Paul, and they will register Republican and vote for him in the primary election. That transition is not easy to make, so we would be wise to make the environment hospitable for these guests.
(Not everyone is as smart as we are...give them a break as they learn.)
Lots of truth here.
Lots of truth here. Elizabeth Kucinich has said plenty of positive things about Ron Paul. That is, after she actually studied up on Paul's stands on issues.
Let's be tolerant.
I agree
Useful idiots, we need them. But I just dont have the personality to say nothing when someone is espousing ideology I despise, is being intellectually dishonest, and otherwise playing semantic games.
In this way TimC is more like Beck than we are.
We do not use it enough.
As a veteran of the cold war we don't use these words enough. these abhorrent political, economic and social parasites swirl around us each day. We must name them for what they are.
I personally like DK. But is he really what the poster is talking about?
Join PyraBang the peoples search engine.
Rude reply follows
TimC I have tracked your comments around this forum and the only logical conclusion Ive been able to come to is this. You are an apologist for socialism and communism. I understand you call yourself progressive? Just another euphanism the left is using for their socialist agenda. Look at the talking points of any democrat. Tax the rich, blame the rich, universal healthcare, save social security. Have you looked at the planks of their platform?
Honestly I dont give a fuck if you call it socialism, communism, progressive, liberal or whatever. It all means the same thing. Slavery. The states owns you and can dispose of your life for whatever means it sees fit. Any person that espouses these ideas needs to be educated, rebutted, reprimanded and finally discounted. Collectivist ideology has no place in the future of a free society. I cant understand why someone like yourself would support RP.
DK is advocating a 'nonprofit healthcare system'. Perhaps you would like to explain to us whom is expected to absorb the material losses of such a system.
Next, I dont quite understand what the point of your bible thumping is? Trying to justify looting of the productive class with Christianity? This is no theocracy and we dont want to be. The point in the verses was a voluntary effort, not one where people doors are kicked down if they dont give tribute. Nothing is stopping this sort of system from existing now so what is your complaint?
A libertarian utopia will be hell too.
Anyone with an absolutist/fundamentalist/utopian ideology is, well, fundamentally evil. And that does include utopian libertarians (and communists, and free market fundamentalists, and religious zealots, etc.).
You are all the same if measured by the fruits of your belief systems because you are too pure for the real world where most people actually live. You wreak havoc on the rest of us but we will defeat you--over and over again.
People here use the word Communism too lightly..
Right.
Folks shouldn't exaggerate by using terms like Marxist or Commie.
If you mean pinko, say pinko. ;-)
You have only addressed the
You have only addressed the economic aspects of Communism, though that does include a progressive income tax and central banking, which Kucinich supports--and so do majority of Presidential aspirants. That is the effect of the Communism on down through the ages.
It is the goal of the program Ron Paul embodies to destroy Marxism forever.
Socialism, non-revolutionary Communism, is the popular political program for advancing Communism. It offers to rob Peter and give it to Paul. Have there been good people who were socialists or Communists down through the century? Yes, but that doesn't change the point that it is Socialism that has brought us to the current crisis of a massive Leviathan welfare/warfare state.
That Socialists and Communists have agreed that the people cannot own firearms is a direct threat to our lives and well being as their is a track record of domestic mass murder where ever their policies have gained a foothold, be it at Waco, Serbia, Iraq, or Ukraine.
We welcome Leftists and socialists to join with us for one brief moment, then we can go back to hating each other and fighting tooth and nail, but these attempts to wed two polar opposites serves no purpose.
Missing the point
The point is that communism in ideology would not say that people cannot own guns. It would be a non-issue.
Same with a truly free state. It would be a non-issue.
The gun is only a means to protect your freedom,not a mandate for being free.
This is why they are called 'ideologies'.
Both Communism and Free(dom) require that all people are free,in order to even exist as actual realities. They are voluntary ideals,not coerced states.
Government would then be simply a tool for logistics,if at all.
There would be no need for a Bill of Rights or a Constitution in a truly free state. Nor would there be a need for centralized government in a truly communist state.
Who cares about Cuckoocinich?
This is about Dr. Paul over here. Save the Dennis talk for the UFOs.
After reading all of the
After reading all of the comments below mine, I'm pretty sure that most of you are confusing Socialism with Marxism/Communism.
Communism was the Soviet Russian, Chinese Communism, Castro's Communism, and every other form of Communism on the planet. Communism is not Socialism and Socialism is not Communism. Mind you, Socialism was corrupted and became Communism.
I know that it isn't that simple and cut and dry, but I am also not going to give a socialism/communism lesson. This is the Internet after all and you are more than able to do your own research.
Not exactly
Actually,communism was thought to a be a more pure manifestation of socialism.
Socialism was not corrupted into communism,as socialism has no agreed upon doctrine. It is a diverse movement with many socialist ideals as part of it.
You are correct that technically it is a 'branch' of socialism,or branched out from it.
China,Russia,Cuba,are NOT communism. They are called that by their leaders. But they are not. Not by the definition of the true communist ideology.
Any time you have state coercion,you do not have either socialism or communism. You have a form of authoritarian government. You may find that government utilizing social or communist approaches to implementing his or her rule,including calling their system communism or socialism,but the systems themselves are just that: distribution systems.
Philosophies that are ideological in nature almost never manifest in an actual human society. Kinda like libertarian or free(dom). B/C they require voluntary inclusion; otherwise,coercion is part of the deal,and it ain't that anymore. [Even the constitution and bill of rights are a form of coercion,although they are a helluva lot better for me than an alternative form of coercion.]
He's still a communist/socialist
"If the State takes the power of disposal from the owner piecemeal, by extending its influence over production; if its power to determine what direction production shall take and what kind of production there shall be, is increased, then the owner is left with nothing except the empty name of ownership, and property has passed into the hands of the State." -Ludwig von Mises.
This is what Kucinich wants. He wants government to control businesses and the economy for the "common good," so that each contributes according to their abilities and each recieves according to his needs. What Kucinich wants would amount to state communism or state socialism. That's the case for most Democratic politicians.