"Our constitutional principles and
DEMOCRATIC VALUES
are being assaulted at every turn."
in the latest C4L fundraiser letter? or was that what JohnTate's staff wrote, and plunked Ron's file signature on it.
Would not Ron Know the difference between democracy and republican form of government?
Where can I buy a DEMOCRACY SUCKS bumper sticker?
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He is not using the word "Democratic" as a Noun,
referring to a Democrat, but as an adverb (? I don't remember my English too well)) The word democratic, small d, in Webster's dictionary is taken from the Greek words Demos (the people) and kratein, (to rule).
The word 'democracy' is based on conception of the equality of man.
In a Republic, we are all equal, and our government is supposed to be ruling by our consent, but they are also supposed to be bound down by the chains of the Constitution, which is Rule by Law.
yes he spoke correctly
We have a Constitutional democratic republic
We have a constitution that establishes the rule of law and restrains a rule of men or a rule of the mob a/k/a pure democracy.
We have a representational republican form of government that protects the rights of man especially the few from the many
Our representatives are selected in a democratic process rathar than appointed by the head of state or oligarch.
Of course he knows the difference, and he knows ...
( as I perceive it) that most Americans don't. He is doing his job and we need to help him out by teaching everyone we have access to what the difference is between a democracy and what we were intended to be, a true republic.
I found a short, but sweet, explanation that hits the nail on the head at Devvy Kidds's website about the difference between the two and what the founding fathers had to say about that difference.
See if you agree by going to her site and clicking on "A Domocracy or a Republic, Which is it?" @: http://www.devvy.com/
Different republics
you can have a republic where your representatives are appointed by the head of state or where they are selected by the people in a democratic process.
We have a democratic republican form of constitutional government
Here is how the senators were selected in the Ronam Republic:
Members of the Senate were chosen from among eligible equites, and selected by Consuls, Tribunes and later by Censors. Alternatively, they were selected from those who were elected to previous magistracies, such as quaestors. If not previously a member of the Senate, a magistrate ending his year of service in one these offices would then be eligible for an immediate seat. Not all Senators held equal status, however. Those selected by censors or other magistrates to fill seats from among the equites had no right to vote or to speak on the Senate floor. Senators earned the proper dignity and nobility to vote and speak on the floor by virtue of holding various offices such as Consul, Praetor, Aedile, etc., Such dignified offices as the Pontifex Maximus, head of the Roman Religion, or the Flamen Dialis, chief priest of Jupiter, were categorized as non voting and non speaking with the exception of various religious rituals.
The 2 elected consuls alternated monthly as the primary director of the Senate and held the right to propose his own agenda. The Princeps Senatus, who was chosen generally from among ex-censors for a term of 5 years, held the prestigious position of leader of the house. He was in control of such things as opening and closing meetings as well as setting meeting times and places, reading documents before the members, meeting with dignitaries and imposing order on other Senators, including the Consuls. Among the senators with speaking rights, a strict order defining who could speak and when was established, with a patrician always preceding a plebeian of equal rank. The speaking order was similar to that of the seating arrangement, in which the princeps senatus held the first chair, followed by the consuls, censors, praetors, aediles, tribunes and finally, the quaestors. There were no limits to debating and various methods of delay and subversion were employed. Among these, the practice of the filibuster, or speaking at incredible lengths to derail the opposition and delay voting, was a popular one.
Voting in the Senate could be taken by voice or show of hands in unimportant matte
http://www.unrv.com/empire/the-senate.php
Yea sure. Democracy sucks
until you try any other form of government.
The democrastic traditions of our federal government are certainly flawed and abused. But, the local expression of democratic values is just fine. I wouldn't trade it for any other system.
h-daddy
Worthwhile
I suspect it was simply a rhetorical device. He understands that the people have, over multiple generations, been deluded into thinking that democracy is the end in itself, rather than the highly flawed means to certain limited ends within the republic. Understanding that, he points to the undemocratic nature of some government antics to appeal to public consciousness as it is.
However, I feel that it is a very important point for us to generally counter the erroneous belief that democracy is in any way a goal, instead pointing out its corrosive and ultimately self-annihilating nature. It is democracy that should be in chains and the people who should be free.
Thank you all for responding
I feel honored to be slammed and praised by our very elite group.
I think that if we cannot get it correct, then how are the ignorant masses going to fare.
Democracy is not mentioned in the Constitution or the Decl of Ind.
Democracy's definition has been changed over time, by democrats of course, starting with the 1913 Webster dictionary. Before that we had the 1828 dictionary by Noah Webster, that says, "Government by the people; a form of government, in which the supreme power is lodged in the hands of the people collectively, or in which the people exercise the powers of legislation. Such was the government of Athens."
No mention of representatives there right? Well the democrats would have none of that. Lawyer Lincoln was the first democrat, as afr as i am concerned, or better yet he is just like a Bush Republican, because they lie and start wars with lies. Both were responsible for being the only republicans I can recall that started a pre-emptive war.
FDR changed the definitions in the military manuals later in the 1930's to get rid of the "mob-rule" definition of democracy. and added the definition of republican form of government into the definition of democracy.
You see thjis country has been going down hill since about the 1830's, jus about the time when the first generation or founders had all finally died, and their children started messing it up.
Lincoln calling this a government of, by, and for the people. He was calling it a democracy, because democracies become dicatorships, and he wanted to be the first dictator, but he died and did not destroy all his speeches and writings and orders, or records of them.
Ron is smart, and that is why I believe he did not write the letter.
And what is wrong with the John Birch society? Nothing!
Democracy is two wolves and sheep deciding what to have for lunch. Democracy is tyranny of the majority.
Democracy is used for small votes.
Democrats are changing that. They gave us the 17th amendment, to take away the US Senate from the state legislatures. States rights gone, 1913. 1913 dictionary definition change to democracy.
Communism was on the rise in the democrat party at that time. Democracy has the term "collectively" in its definition, and communism's definition "a political theory favoring collectivism in a classless society" does to.
We "slam" too much here.
But Democracy is mob rule. That's the easiest way, I have found, to remember to keep it off my tongue.
Votes, without principles or law to control them, are merely a means used to trick others.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Well, Democratically Elected
Well, Democratically Elected Representative, Constitutional Government.
A Republic is a form of Democracy. Just because we have laws that are supposed to bind down the authoritarians hands doesn't change that all other choices are made in a democratic manner as long as it squares with the Law.
Well
we are a democratic Republic.
Where'd you pick that one up?
.
Explore Orthodox Christianity
We're a Constitutional
We're a Constitutional Republic.
no, we aren't
Good lord...
Yes, because we are ignorant
Yes, because we are ignorant we see our system of government as a democracy. The original intent was to have 13 seperate independent republics interally and a unified general representative externally. The general government would also place a check on oppressive State Legislature or quell what Madison calls: "The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States. A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source. A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.
I guess the joke is on us - instead of small degenerating influence in small regions the General Government took on the wicked project of paper money rage, unlawful property distribution, factions and wide spread conflagration. Reading Federalist #10 is like reading tea leaves to the present day. Ah, democracy - I do love my digital brain box.
Sometimes he slips
But he specifically corrected himself many times saying that democracy is NOT a good form of government and that America was not created as such. Ron Paul knows about mob rule and has spoken out about it.
"Greater than the force of mighty armies is the power of an idea whose time has come"
- Victor Hugo
"Greater than the force of mighty armies is the power of an idea whose time has come"
- Victor Hugo
Yes, he did say that!
Ron Paul is not a member of the John Birch Society and he doesn't equate "democracy" with "mob rule".
Although Paul rates Von Mises as a great economist, he doesn't subscribe to all his views on jurisprudence. In fact, I recall one writer on mises.org chastising him for advocating the constitution.
Ron Paul is not a full-blown anti-state anarchist. He's more of a minarchist. He believes in a limited government constrained by the constitution and an armed citizenry.
Recall Ron Paul's "third party" press conference. He complained that the two party system was "not very democratic".
http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/
http://lpuk.blogspot.com/
http://northwestlibertarians.blogspot.com/
Mises and Hayek werent
Mises and Hayek werent anarchists either, its basically only the Rothbardians that are.
Ventura 2012
That's true
And that Rothbardian influence is very strong. I'd say 95+% of the scholars affiliated with the Mises Institute today are anarcho-capitalists!
Interesting!
As atrickpay says, most writers on mises org lampoon limited government advocates, accuse them of being "law & order" socialists, of ignoring the "economic calculation" problem when it suits them, etc.
I naively assumed that Mises himself must share that view. On closer inspection, I can't find any text to support that view!
Ironically, my LPUK forum screen name is "Rothbard_Reader". That was basically a tribute to "The Mystery of Banking". Maybe it should have been "Mises_Reader"?
http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/
http://lpuk.blogspot.com/
http://northwestlibertarians.blogspot.com/
according to the CIA world
according to the CIA world factbook, the united states are "a republic, with a strong democratic tradition"
doesn't say we're a democracy, it merely says we have a tradition.
This is the kind of
This is the kind of obsessiveness that tends to turn libertarians into minority cranks.
Republicanism uses the democratic principle of voting. It is a form of tempered democratic government. It is a representative democracy plus constitutional safeguards. Stop being such a baby.
Ventura 2012
Amen to that.
Trashing other people's statements is easy. Offering a credible alternative is hard.
http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/
http://lpuk.blogspot.com/
http://northwestlibertarians.blogspot.com/
Word
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"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause."
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LMAO.... go get em
LMAO.... go get em brawler!!!
"Would not Ron Know the
"Would not Ron Know the difference between democracy and republican form of government?"
He didn't say we were a democracy. He said our democratic values were being assaulted.
There are none
There are no Democratic values is the point.
Democracy and democratic are not Democrat but close.
Democracy was totally despised by our founders.
Meaning of DEMOCRATIC
Pronunciation: `demu'kratik
Sponsored Links:
WordNet Dictionary
Definition: [adj] representing or appealing to or adapted for the benefit of the people at large; "democratic art forms"; "a democratic or popular movement"; "popular thought"; "popular science"; "popular fiction"
[adj] characterized by or advocating or based upon the principles of democracy or social equality; "democratic government"; "a democratic country"; "a democratic scorn for bloated dukes and lords"- George du Maurier
[adj] belong to or relating to the Democratic Party; "Democratic senator"
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Definition: \Dem`o*crat"ic\, a. [Gr. ?: cf. F. d['e]mocratique.]
1. Pertaining to democracy; favoring democracy, or
constructed upon the principle of government by the
people.
2. Relating to a political party so called.
3. Befitting the common people; -- opposed to aristocratic.
{The Democratic party}, the name of one of the chief
political parties in the United States.
?? 1911 The Devil's Dictionary - by Ambrose Bierce ??
Just for fun...
ALLIANCE, n. In international politics, the union of two thieves with hands so deeply inserted in each others pockets that they cannot separately plunder a third.
DEBT, n. An ingenious substitute for the chain and whip of the slave-driver.
Pressing his nose against the glass that holds him,
Nor ever sees the prison that enfolds him;
So the poor debtor, seeing naught around him,
Yet feels the narrow limits that impound him,
Grieves at his debt and studies to evade it,
And finds at last he might as well have paid it.
Barlow S. Vode
DEGRADATION, n. One of the stages of moral and social progress from private station to political preferment.
RABBLE, n. In a republic, those who exercise a supreme authority tempered by fraudulent elections. The rabble is like the sacred Simurgh, of Arabian fable -- omnipotent on condition that it do nothing. (The word is Aristocratese, and has no exact equivalent in our tongue, but means, as nearly as may be, "soaring swine.")
REPUBLIC, n. A nation in which, the thing governing and the thing governed being the same, there is only a permitted authority to enforce an optional obedience. In a republic, the foundation of public order is the ever lessening habit of submission inherited from ancestors who, being truly governed, submitted because they had to. There are as many kinds of republics as there are graduations between the despotism whence they came and the anarchy whither they lead.
REVOLUTION, n. In politics, an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment. Specifically, in American history, the substitution of the rule of an Administration for that of a Ministry, whereby the welfare and happiness of the people were advanced a full half-inch. Revolutions are usually accompanied by a considerable effusion of blood, but are accounted worth it -- this appraisement being made by beneficiaries whose blood had not the mischance to be shed. The French revolution is of incalculable value to the Socialist of to-day; when he pulls the string actuating its bones its gestures are inexpressibly terrifying to gory tyrants suspected of fomenting law and order.
A Few Quotes to Burst Your Bubble
"Information is the currency of democracy." - Thomas Jefferson
"An informed citizenry is the bulwark of a democracy." - Thomas Jefferson
“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” - Thomas Jefferson
"The effect of a representative democracy is to refine and enlarge the public views, by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of the nation...." - James Madison
The fact of the matter is, our Founders created a federal, constitutional, democratic republic - federal because power was divided between a central government and the states, constitutional because a written constitution defined the government's powers, democratic (as opposed to aristocratic or oligarchic) because of the broad-based electorate, and republic because it was a representative government spread out over a large area.
You need to learn to distinguish between a pure democracy and a democratic republic. You also need to figure out the difference between democracy used as a noun and democratic used as an adjective.
Matters and facts
MamaBear will you please source ALL of the above quotes to Jefferson and Madison directly.
When I looked to authenticate the quotes, they are either misquoted or unsubstantiated.
In fact this quote "Information is the currency of democracy" finds it's first source location in 1971.
"An informed citizenry is the bulwark of a democracy." Is another quote that can not be traced to any of Jefferson's writings. I did find a traceable quote with the word "bulwark" in it however...
March 4, 1801, in Jefferson's First Inaugural Address:
If you are looking for well sourced Thomas Jefferson quotes please go here or here.
Your James Madison quote has some additional wording not found in the original source material; here is the real quote:
The bubble can only be burst when the authority you express has authenticity in its research. Otherwise you are just putting forth fabrications based on second hand knowledge or in other words you spread lies because you don't bother to look for the truth (fact of the matter). I find it to be troublesome...
More Quotes, With Citations
In a letter to P. S. Dupont de Nemours, Apr. 24, 1816:
"We of the United States, you know, are constitutionally and conscientiously democrats." - Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson also wrote a letter to James Madison Dec. 28, 1794 where he talks about the virtues of democratic societies. While there aren't any really great quips, here is a part of a sentence to give you a taste:
"...democratical societies, whose avowed object is the nourishment of the republican principles of our constitution"
The point is, the Founders did not avoid this word like it was the plague. They sometimes used it to denote a society with the backing of the people. They absolutely disparaged pure democracies. I think we all agree on that. At the same time, they did not denounce the people altogether. Rather, they recognized the people as the source of all legitimate power. In this sense, democratic was used in contrast to aristocratic, oligarchic, monarchic, or dictatorial.