Why on earth is Ron OK with drug criminalization at the state level?
Submitted by atrickpay on Sat, 03/14/2009 - 15:00
Just watching Joy Behar interview....What a cop-out. Just throw natural-rights out the window?
update: In response to one of Joy's questions Ron asserts that "the states have every right to regulate" drugs.
Um, according to which theory of rights Ron? The statist theory of rights (rights are granted by the State)?
Pathetic.
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Ron Paul is a
Ron Paul is a Constitutionalist. Amendments 9 & 10 basically give you your answer. The federal government does not have constitutional authority to regulate upon this issue. As per the Constitution, these issues are either State issues or issues for people to decide upon themselves.
Regarding whether or not the States or the Individuals decide, that all depends on the constitution and laws of each State. Also depends on what the people of that State decide as well.
Basically, the federal government should have nothing to do with it. That's Ron Paul's stance.
And think of it from another point of view, if we ever get the federal government out of State business - then the States will be in competition with each other. The best States will earn the support of the people. Taking your dollars elsewhere will truly make a difference when the States decide on most everything, or decide not to decide.
...
Think about how federalism would work in practice.
Different states would end up being governed quite differently and individuals would be free to move between them.
Taking a purely cultural view of US, I would imagine that New York would end up with very different laws from Alabama. Don't you think?
Also, if one state decided unilaterally to impose a bunch of crazy draconian laws on its citizens, don't you think there would be a strong incentive to just sell your property and move the hell away?
http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/
http://lpuk.blogspot.com/
http://northwestlibertarians.blogspot.com/
Exactly, but I contend that ....
States Law over rules federal law when that fed law violates the constitution.
County or city law over rules state law when stat law violates state constitution or federal constitution...
I'd be living in the Socialist Republic of Maryland...
Yes, Brit4RonPaul, your perception of the differences between states is correct...but if I'm not mistaken, it is exactly this point that RP makes in his book. In my home state I feel very alone in my love for liberty and the Constitution. The lawns here mostly sprout Obama signs, and a few friends were shocked when they heard I was an independent (they got suspicious when I was SO quiet during the election...). Here hyperregulation and big spending are the order of the day.
If it bothers me enough, I'll move. In the meantime, I live in hope. I've found a few Democrats who have libertarian leanings; maybe a few can be convinced...
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. ("I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude"). Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 30 January 1787.
I like Ron Paul's pragmatism.
Atrickpay started this thread talking about "natural rights".
He doesn't seem to understand that if no-one (himself or someone else) will defend his natural rights with the threat of force, then his "natural rights" don't mean diddly squat in practice.
http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/
http://lpuk.blogspot.com/
http://northwestlibertarians.blogspot.com/
Just Chiming in
Ron Paul works in Federal Gov't -- so, he wants that power out of the Fed. 300M competing voices to try to overthrow 550 federal gov't officials (who all agree to disagree) plus 100's of lobbyist -OR- 35M compete to overthrow 1 (governor) -- referring to state of California.
Get the power out of central gov't and the people will overthrow the states.
If Ron was a govenor he'd fight to keep the Fed Gov out and probably argue to allow "cities or counties" to make the decision -- pushing the argument more and more onto the individual or community -- where it belongs.
If you get it down to the city then people will vote with there feet.
Imagine you live in Marin County where its legal yet it is illegal in all other bay area counties -- how much money would that county make in sales tax (even if marijuana went un-taxed) -- people would eat there, they'd shop there, they'd move there. The competition would force all other counties to legalize it.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
What?!?
It is to do AWAY w/ BIG GOV'T. & the steps to Globalization! Ron Paul is all about SMALL GOV'T. (i.e. state level).
(Keep in mind, people are lumping pot in w/ heroin, X, meth, etc.)
Dr. Paul is obviously not about governing your life & what you do with it. He just wants the Federal Gov't to stay the hell out of it.
The useless Drug War is a Fed run operation. FEDERAL-NOT-STATE. Every state should have it's own law & allocate their part of their state budget on enforcing it. Big Fed Gov't. should stay the f*ck out.
That means that millions-upon-millions of Federal (Not State) tax monies should NOT be used to fight the idiotic War On Drugs.
In addition; people are going to use whether or not you want them to. It is a useless fight to try to govern or stop them. Using the FBI & Fed to fight drugs in every single state is ridiculous & expensive. Punishing people at state level is a lot less expensive & keeps the Fed out.
Is this not an agreeable step?
I'm confused - was Ron Paul not clear about his platform??
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
Ron Paul is always right-the
Ron Paul is always right-the man is a genius! Letting the states decide would be allowing the people to decide better for themselves, and sometimes with some of these issues, the better way would be gradual instead of drastic changes, too quick a turnabout on some of this would make many panic. and cause chaos.
Ron Paul speaks
Ron Paul speaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJz81lAwY0M
.
i think states should have the right to regulate drugs for kids and also for driving under the influence and basic public safety issues.
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“A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement” - Thomas Jefferson
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul
I think Dr. Pauls point was
I think Dr. Pauls point was if the states wanted to legislate it, that would be up to the people of the states, the Fed govt. has (or is suppose to have) NO power to regulate drug use. They are there for Post Offices, Military bases, and ports only. They are suppose to deal with treason, counterfitting, and piracy not drugs!
please
please try not to be offended or to take it personally when Ron Paul tries to appeal to a larger crowd - this is a good thing
Ron Paul is not a libertarian.
He is a constitutionalist.
Libertarians do so much harm to their cause when they insist on a top-down imposition of their beliefs. Another example is Ron Paul not attacking welfare for the neediest. He says that is the LAST area where he would cut government. On the contrary, the agents who control the Libertarian Party spend so much time attacking these relatively small government programs.
Ron Paul promotes decentralization - a very popular idea. Libertarian bozos promote universal capitalist extremism.
I'm pretty sure Paul is talking about...
regulating the rights of Minors-- a venerated tradition in this country. ;)
I'm not going to get drawn into a long philosophical debate about whether or not it makes sense to allow states to arbitrarily restrict rights based on age. I'm just going to point out that it is a far more reasonable solution than outright prohibition for all.
Ron Paul may not like drugs, but he absolutely hates corruption, violence, and hypocrisy. That is why he want's to repeal prohibition, and allow states to handle regulation.
Could states attempt to pass their own 'prohibitions'? Of course.
Would they be successful? I don't know, but I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't be successful everywhere. In the end there would be some regions of the country where drugs were legalized. These regions provide people living in more conservative states (and the court system) with concrete evidence that life will go on after the end of prohibition.
In short: Paul's in this for the long haul. His position is a compromise. He allows that the states should be left to their own devices when regulating the use of narcotics in order to pacify those living in 'Real America,' and give people living in 'Fake America' a little breathing room.
Paul knows that social costs and economic burden associated with the War on Drugs still operate at the state level, and they too will eventually come to their senses.
Ladies and gentlemen, time is on our side.
At the state level
You have more control as a citizen. Get involved in state gov. Change your world.
Watch freedomtofascism.com
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Move back to Kalifornia
If you want to smoke your dope.
Kalifornians wanted everything legalized: cheap labor, dope, gay marriage, crack whores on every corner etc. Now the state is trashed, bankrupted and Ex-Kalifornians want every other state they moved into to legalize everything they had before.
People say its a totalitarian idea that some people want to live in a state without legalized pot, but the only way your going to accomplish that is to have the federal goverment legalize it for every state, instead of letting the states decide the issue.
Let the states decide the issue, so you can live in a state and deal with the consequences of what ever citzens choose to legalize, and others who don't want it legal can live in a more conservative state.
YOU WANT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR YOURSELF AND SO DO I
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"Take hold of the future or the future will take hold of you." -- Patrick Dixon
As a Kalifornian...
I say to you sir that the state is not 'trashed.'
It's simply broke because the ninnies up in Sacramento like paying for things they cant afford. (That and unfunded mandates + undocumented workers = unsustainable budgets.)
And I've no clue what you mean when you say that we want to 'legalize cheap labor.' The Californian minimum wage is higher than the federal minimum wage, and most folks are vehemently opposed to illegal immigration.
The Constitution represents...
a lengthy and terrible battle between the Federalists and the anti-Federalists. We may seek individual sovereignty, but in practical matters there needs to be a governing body, or set of regulations at some level. The colonies had individual charters and enough problems joining together to fight against the English for their common defense, how could they agree to come together for anything less. But, in the end, they came together; through persuasion, threat of economic sanction, and coercion to all sign the Constitution. Now one can see the fractal nature of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Individual rights found communities, communities of sovereign individuals found regions, regions...and so on to States, and ultimately nations. That's why the federal government rules only by the consent of the goverened. Since the federal government is the end of the line, in essence riding ultimately on the shoulders of sovereign individuals, it can only represent us in a limited fashion as described in the Constitution. The real jostle and bustle should be found at the State level. That is where competition should lie under the dictates of the Constitution. States are the voice of their people. That is where sovereign individuals make their stand. By the Constitution, the State is the jurisdiction of highest power, unless you are talking about interstate trade or a raising a national military. If you don't like the rules in your state it is easier to change them that to change federal law. You've also got choices at the state level to vote with your feet. Yes, I think true Liberty is properly whittled down to individual citizens, or individuals if you wish to discard nationalism, is the aim of Freedom. But, while we work toward that goal we must first whittle down this federal government to its proper size and return to the States their proper "rights" as regulated in the Constitution. It is the first step in regaining and returning to some semblance of sovereignty both nationally and individually. Then maybe we could revisit the Constitution and the Articles of the Confederacy with an eye toward clearly denoting individual sovereignty and it's relation to the State.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
A well reasoned explanation.
A well reasoned explanation. Our country's varied interests have always threatened too strong a pull to one direction or the other, and indeed the Federal government has overstepped it's bounds for too long. The pendulum cannot stop swinging, or the imbalance will surely destroy all that we cherish as separate, yet united states.
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
One size does not fit all.
Diversity is a human trait. The more we are different, the more the survival of the fittest can operate. Actually world travel and intermarriage of different nationalities ended human evolution, and homonigized us. One world government would stop all political diversity and advance. Human evolution requires isolated groups. So one state where drugs are legal would compete with other states where drugs are illegal and there would be possibility for evolution to find which state would survive better. If you are against the NWO, you should be in favor of the reassertion of States as the more powerful political units as compared to the federal government; decentralization as opposed to centralization, freedom versus centralized control.
As a practical matter, I have much more influence on my State Representative and Senator, so the mores of the local population are more represented in the State laws than in the federal laws, where only lobbyist are really heard.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence." Thomas H. Huxley
Touch. One size does not fit
Touch.
One size does not fit all.
A One World Libertarian Government
would be horrible, indeed.
We must allow diversity of governments as long as people have the right to emigrate. We learn from our mistakes.
In my opinion I believe Dr. Paul
was saying this so that you and I would have a greater chance in getting laws changed at a state and local level rather that at a federal level.
we just have to get more libertarian minded people elected in our state and local governments.
"Ask not what your country can do
for you, Ask what you can do for
your country."
John F. Kennedy 1961
"Freedom is a right that can never be won in war,only by each individual "
Different groups of people have different
values. Its normal and natural to have laws that reflect the differences.
Why do some countries have Sharia law, while others don't?
The countries of the old Christendom developed the Doctrine of Just War, trial by jury, and lex rex. Common law and case law came from the precepts of the Mosaic Law, which is in the Holy Bible. That was the way they the people wanted to live. Laws grow out of the fundamental religious beliefs of a group of people, as well they should. When a people change religions, like America is doing (moving from Christianity to secular humanism) the laws will eventually change to accommodate that, but some states change faster than others, or don't change at all. So be it.
Since there are 50 states, you have a choice of 50 different set of laws to abide by. Take your pick, and move to where it suits you. Let Mississippi forbid abortions if the people there want it that way, and let the abortion states die out if they've a mind to. California ought to permit medical marijuana if the Californians want it that way.
There are many reasons why I would never move to Nevada, or California, or New York. New Hampshire is the freest state, but Idaho is the 8th freest, and there are overriding reasons why I remain there instead of moving to New Hampshire.
Ron Paul is right about state's rights.
perfect topic
for a lot of newbs to learn that it's not going to be a bed of roses if we turn back to states rights.
but we have no choice.....the alternative is not functional.
there are certain things that states will want to regulate, and it's up to the people to decide whether they want their state regulating those things, or if they desire to have some of those things unregulated or lightly regulated.
I believe Ron's push for
I believe Ron's push for state's rights is mainly to make abortion illegal at the state level, and now it sounds like he'd want to create some kind of panacea without drugs also. He delivers a freedom message that cuts out some pretty big freedoms at times.
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
ron paul wants to make
ron paul wants to make abortion legal at the state level?
preposterous.
he wants the states to decide for themselves what they want.
I think Ron Paul thinks that states rights are just about on their last legs, to be gone in less then 20 years, already having been diluted for the last 145 years.
And abortion is just a distraction.
and then your vague intimation that there are other things that Ron Paul isn't so libertarian on...
like what?
It's no secret that RP is
It's no secret that RP is against abortion personally, is this a surprise? He's mentioned this numerous times, in addition, he did not carelessly throw his support behind Chuck Baldwin for the presidency. I hear the cry "wake up" here so often, yet the obvious is right there. Ron would prefer a Christian state that would eliminate abortion (see link) ---
http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php#Sancity%...
AND the failed policies of attempting to restrict illicit drugs would be maintained (see quote below, and link) ---
"The Constitution Party will uphold the right of states and localities to restrict access to drugs and to enforce such restrictions. We support legislation to stop the flow of illegal drugs into these United States from foreign sources. As a matter of self-defense, retaliatory policies including embargoes, sanctions, and tariffs, should be considered."
(link)
http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php#Drug%20A...
These views correlate with Ron's views as a doctor and a Christian. Ron still aligns with Republicans rather than Libertarians and this is no accident. If he could not stomach the Republican Party, he would quit it based on philosophical differences alone. Can anyone seriously believe that he continues to vote his conscience year after year the way he does, then suddenly votes for Chuck Baldwin to spite Republicans and Libertarians? No, sir.
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
I think that we all are under the lesser evils paradigm...
as is Ron Paul. There is no one more "anti-drug war" than me, and I voted for Baldwin. It is all a matter of incrementalization...first things first,,,and the first step in my book is the abandonment of the Republicrats and a change to the control paradigm...after that, I'll worry about the trivialies of the New Powers That Be. All I know is that what we have ain't working and ain't gonna bite the hands that feed them.
**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **
"...there is no doubt that it (socialism) could not possibly have affected us so widely and so deeply as it has, had it not been heavily financed". - B. Carroll Reece
Why did you vote for Baldwin
Why did you vote for Baldwin if you are pro-liberty? The Constitution Party is anathema to individual choice.
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
What is wrong with the states deciding ?
FYI
Not everyone wants to raise kids and/or live in a state where drugs are legal.
To each his own.
____
"Take hold of the future or the future will take hold of you." -- Patrick Dixon