The other side of the Beck Debate
Submitted by glassman on Thu, 03/26/2009 - 09:56I think this deserves it's own Post and don't know if it will make it to the front page, but it is something I think everyone in the freedom movement needs to read.
I disagree with all of this anti-beck division and I think it hurts us more than it helps us. We may be turning away hundreds of people a day if we keep it up. There are still things I disagree with Beck about (foreign policy being the big one) but I have no problem with him spreading ideas of freedom and having Dr Paul, Gerald Celente, and Judge Napolitano on his show.
In fact I just heard an interview with Gerald Celente and he seemed to think Glen Beck was sincere and asking good questions.
Remember, many of us were stuck in the Rep/Dem paradigm ourselves. But we entered the "rabbit hole" It doesn't take long to realize that the hole is deeper than we first thought. It takes some of us a little longer to go down it. I think this is the case with Beck and maybe you disagree. But the things Beck and others are doing, will lead more people down into the rabbit hole and closer to the ideas of liberty and freedom. If what we say is true, and when it comes to liberty, I think it is, then as people enter that rabbit hole, the truth will become more clear to them.
Even if the media says negative things about the movement, it is good for the movement. (But maybe some here like it more when the media is negative about us. It helps them feel more right somehow.) Everything the media says about us will bring in more freedom lovers. So lets be ready for the Glenn Beck followers and not make them feel like outcasts when they come!
THIS IS THE KEY!
If we keep railing on Glenn Beck, when his listeners do come to us, they will simply walk out the door as soon as they come. We need to be ready to greet them, not chastise them.
I understand where many of you are coming from. Beck implied some pretty nasty things about Ron Paul's supporters during the elections. Anytime someone takes over what you've been working on (and especially if they miss some important aspects of it) you feel your efforts are being trampled on. You want an apology and you want them to at least recognize your efforts. But I don't see the freedom movement as being about me.
It seems that many people see this as a competition and their pride gets in the way of reason.
I don't need an apology to forgive Beck for anything he's said in the past. I'll take all the attention, good or bad, about the message of freedom, because I believe the message of freedom is right and in the end, the truth is more powerful than lies or any misunderstandings.
Please know that this is how almost every movement happens.
1. Everyone calls us crazy
2. Then the mainstream starts to accept it
3. They say, they thought of it.
This is the progression of the movement. Perhaps some day, the talking radio/tv heads will say they were always against our wars. That will be fine with me even though they will probably not give us any credit. But in the end, I don't deserve the credit. Our founding fathers knew it long before I did.
I'm learning every day more and more about how freedom works and solves our problems so I can better answer questions and have conversations about it. We need to understand other's perspective to spread this message. So lets not attack people that are going through the same process. The freedom movement isn't about attacking people with the things we disagree on. This is a logical and historical debate where we can accept people from where they are, and trust that the truth will win their mind in the end.
If there's one thing I've learned, as I've shared new ideas with people, is that building on commonality always wins out to pointing out differences. Focusing on differences is always divisive.
I'm sure that those that want to keep bashing on Beck will find other people here that will applaud them on their hatred and distrust for him but I don't know what that accomplishes except turning his listeners away from us. I think they fear that Beck will lead us away from the truth. (which doesn't seem likely to me)
But wouldn't our time be better spent becoming part of what Beck is doing and helping to educate it from within? Isn't that more productive than spending time trying to lead people away from Beck?
Many of them are mostly there already! We just need to get through that last 20% and help them understand how our founding fathers felt about aggressive wars and entangling alliances.
In the end, it doesn't matter whether you trust or not Glenn Beck. Division and hatred never help! It's always best to turn the other cheek. Otherwise, we lose more than we gain as those listening to Glenn Beck come here looking to learn more about Freedom, Ron Paul, and what we are really about.
I don't want them to come and have the perception that we are about hatred and division and distrusting of someone they respect because I don't think that is what the freedom movement is about.
Well said.
Lets not do to them what was done to us. That would be hypocritical and defeat our purpose.
I don't hate him
But I do distrust Glenn Beck, and I want nothing to do with him.
What's important to remember
What's important to remember is that even if Glen Beck is a Judas Goat, he can still be of use to us as he helps spread the truth. To worry about the potential for a "Cult of Personality" developing which he could then exploit is irrelevant right now.
Be skeptical of him, for sure. Hold him to a high standard, help to convince him of the rightness of our ideas and, most importantly, use his influence to our advantage.
I'm thrilled to see him doing the things he's doing. Do I trust him? No. Do I appreciate the help he's giving us? Yes.
If he continues on the path he's embarked on so far, he will be a near-indispensable ally. If he deviates, we cut him loose.
Ta,
Blog: The Present in Plain Text
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Thank you!
I guess my question is do we want freedom & liberty, do we want our country and government back or do we want name recognition and have our ego stroked for our accomplishment......
Since coming to Ron Paul I've learned more than I wish I knew some days. One thing is "Markets".... the people dermine the market. Except here in America where our government determines who stays and who plays.
It's pretty obvious that the market is eating up the we surround them & the faux news. Are we perhaps trying to prop up a market ?
Please understand, I'm as puritan as most sold out, committed and passionate Paulaholics.
But if "markets" actually SPEAK... this one is shouting. Anything that becomes popular needs the RIGHT TIMING, the RIGHT MARKETING, and the RIGHT ENDORSEMENTS. Time to face the facts, our movement was only popular to a very small percent of people, most of us were already aware and doing something about it before the primaries. It was easy for us to jump on. But we did not sell it to the average Joe... Timing, marketing and endorsements... mmmm coulda, shoulda, woulda.
There is a fire blazing out there now, we gotta jump on it while it's hot. I'm not asking you to join anything, I'm not. But if the negative talk about Beck et al persists we will sabatoge our selves and our desire for liberty.
How many times were we hurt because Dr Paul was trashed, ignored, spoken ill of... Did we perhaps miss out on good info or strategy simply because we got offended and closed our ears to those people ... Are we now having a hard time listening to peope who for this moment have a national & media platform, and the ear, heatrs and loyalty of hundreds of thousands of angry and energized patriots simply because we were offended...
NEWS FLASH... trash talk cuts both ways.....
I guess I'm a very simple person, do to others as I want them to do to me. We have a huge opportunity... I gave away more F2F dvd's,Republic magaines and info on our r3volution effortlessly at the we surround them thing and they were begging for more... often I pass this info out to skeptical people who seldom look at the info. Not so this time. (TIMING)
The truth is, we were the first responders, when our country was on the verge of imploding we were on the scene sounding the alarm. We've done ALOT in moving this mainstream. We may never get the credit.... Ron Paul may never get the credit he deserves in ths life time.
The r3volution continues and I for one don't care what banner it's under.
I wont be fooled and I wont be sucked in to following any MAN.
I'm doing this for my grandchildren and that's enough for me.
I posted this on another forum and thought it might apply here
I agree with what you are saying -- I'm just saying America (Rush's people - Savages people - Olberman's people - Bill Mauer's people - Obama's people) -- You know the 97% who didn't vote for Ron Paul.
They all think Beck is an absolute idiot and have said so many times.
Last night Bill Mauer and Co (who we applauded last year - by-the-by) slammed the living hell out of Beck.
Olberman (who I believe "believes" everything he says -- he's just a little off on the vehicles of change thing) said Beck and Hanity (whom he knows personally) think all of this is a media "game" -- it's ratings to them. He called them posers and insincere.
And we want to make this guy our "guy."
In the last 4 months I've seen more possitive Beck posts then in the past two years of the RP movement.
Mauer and Co said Beck was "faking his tears and emotions" during that one rediculous show of his -- I saw it and he was faking it.
Glenn Beck (debunking Maher and also debunking FEMA concentration campes): http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Glenn Beck calls Bernie Sanders a socialist -- We called Bush a socialist and Beck supported the $3Trillion War and Everything Bush!!
Glenn Beck's "phony tears" Video -- Wow watch this Act!! He's an embarrassment:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Why can't you guys "see this" it's so obvious?
HE'S FAKING IT PEOPLE!!!
Remember when we "ripped" Hillary and her Fake Tears?
Wow People!
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Again....I'll say
Again I'll say it. It doesn't matter if you or I believe his sincerity or not. I'm not ashamed and will not be ashamed to say that I do. I admit that I could be wrong. I hope you can admit the same. I don't agree with him on some things like foreign policy but I think he is coming along.
What matters is that this will help us and whether you like it or not, it's here. But I'd hate to see people turned off by Ron Paul because his supporters are so quick to bash and discredit Beck.
People will come here because they watch Beck. Again, like it or not. Lets follow the doctor's lead and not be so quick to assume everyone is part of the NWO.
Lets be ready for those who will come here after watching Beck or seeing Ron Paul on his show. Lets educate them on what freedom means and how it can work. Lets embrace them despite the fact that they only agree with us on 80% of what we believe. (Accepting others despite their differences doesn't mean we are giving up our positions)
Like the previous comment stated, those who are joining Beck as part of the912project and the nationalteaparties, are ripe and ready to hear our message. Lets be good messages and focus on what makes us similar instead of what makes us different.
I don't want to turn people off before they get a chance to see how freedom works and why we might disagree with Beck on things like foreign policy. I think in the end, the logic will win but not if we create emotional barriers for people.
A previous DPer said this and I totally agree. As we share this message, if it turns into an emotional argument, we have failed. It's up to us to learn how to more effectively share this message with the world. If we don't want that responsibility, sometimes it's better not to say anything at all.
Again....this isn't about Glenn Beck, it's about being able to harness what he is doing and furthering the cause for freedom. Yes, he is using what we've said all along. And yes, we will use the following that has taken him years to build up to propel the ideas of freedom.
(Come to think of it, if he had not been who he was 6 months ago, he may have never gotten to where he is today to be able to bring these things to the american people.)
Agreed with the OP.
Good points made.
"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." - Ron Paul
Shopenhauer quote
As Schopenhauer said, all truth goes through three phases. First it is ridiculed. Then it is violently opposed. Finally it is accepted as self evident.
Why isn't it just that Beck has finally accepted what is self evident? First he ridiculed and opposed Ron, and now everything he said has become self evident.
Maybe Beck has seen the light. Let's not forget that Fox also has the Judge on their network. Is the Judge also not to be trusted?
It's not Beck. It's not Beck. It's not Beck.
It's why Beck? Why now? To what end? I said it yesterday, if you have not been fully immersed in the fight against the "New World Order" for at least 2 years, you don't understand how dangerous ________ (insert whatever commentator you want that is just waking up) can be to the fabric of our movement. I have also said that I am thrilled Beck is waking people up, but it is up to us to be constantly vigilant and aware that he is still working for Fox and the CFR has not given up. The enemy we face is a body of the most brilliant minds on earth, don't think for one second that you can't be fooled.
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Yes the enemy is formidable
I agree that the enemy is formidable. That is why we need people on our side. And those listening to and watching Glenn Beck are almost there. Lets not scare them away with Anti-Beck rhetoric.
Lets welcome them and I think they will eventually see the points that Glenn is mistaken on and that it isn't what our founding fathers taught (which I believe Glenn wants to get back to. At the very least, those following him do).
Exposure is what we need.....and media is the tool...
You USE a tool, you don't turn your brain over to it. Nothing wrong with getting overjoyed that our guys are getting exposure. This increases the number of AWAKE people. We just have to make sure that we promote "leaders" for them to latch on to. So TRUSTING that the media figures are solid in their new-found philosophy is foolish. But USING them and being happy that they are exposing the philosophy to the masses is fine.
_______________________________________________________
"Not armies, not nations, have advanced the race; but here and there, in the course of ages, an individual has stood up and cast his shadow over the world." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6pAcBXt2j8
Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."
Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs
I have watched GB for 2+ years & also listened to his radio show
He's exactly the same, he just adjusted himself to the market and audience to make more money.
You might as well say Bush has turned around now that he isn't President.
See the links below to de-brainwash yourself.
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Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/86643
Glen Beck -- RP Supporters are "Domestic Terrorists":
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/86000
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Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/90198
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/86643
You are right
1. Everyone calls us crazy
2. Then the mainstream starts to accept it
3. They say, they thought of it.
Look at the Tea Parties! We were first a year and a half ago.
Give us clear vision, that we may know where to stand and what to stand for - because unless we stand for something, we shall fall for anything.
~ Peter Marshall, US Senate Chaplain 1947
We use too much inflamatory language
I've posted similar messages over and over again and it wasn't 'till I used "inflamatory language" did my post and the kernel of the "wisdom" I was trying to pass "get a fair look."
My point regarding Beck is that Beck works for Fox, Fox is controlled by News Corp and News Corp is owned by Murdoch.
All last year (at least 1000 times) we said "Faux" News and lambasted Murdoch as being a CFR-Goon (one the biggest Neoconservative CFR agents -- was what we said for nearly 2 years).
Napolitano - Paul - Schiff have all been preaching Austrian Economics and Constitutional Analysis for years -- over ten for Napolitano an Schiff and over 30 for Paul.
Beck is a huge media personality and worked very hard his whole career (up 'till a few months ago -- less than a year) to destroy the principals of Austrian Economics and uphold the CFR-Neoconservative agenda.
Here's a wiki-page covering the 120 News Corp Subsidiaries -- this is not a complete list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:News_Corporation_subsi...
My point is Fox is bringing Paul on board because this is where the money is.
In an In-Voluntary Society (which has some percentage of Tax Slavery) the way you make money is in drastic fluctuation (speculation and massive shifts in administrations) -- the wealthy CFR-agents do not care about Neo-Liberals or Neo-Conservatives as long as there is fluctuation and massive shifts in assets -- which they can put their billions on to gain a free interest ride.
Beck and Faux News (owned by one of the biggest CFR-agents - Murdoch) are just buying up the C4L "catch words" (Beck's 912report for example -- the recent use of the terms "liberty" and the pseudo-nod toward free-markets that Rush, Savage, Beck, Dobbs, and the defunct Republican Party are throwing around).
These are the same people (Beck included) who pushed this war ($3Trillion Dollars), agreed with every measure of the Patriot Act, agreed with every measure of Foreign Military Construction, and put Bush in office twice -- they also, ripped the sh** out of the Good Doctor for two years -- with no "real" appology. Now they applaud him and after 80+ years of running assaults on liberty you guys are ready to bend over for them again -- like we did with Reagan BECAUSE they found the right language???????????
Principals that Glenn Beck speaks of are:
1. America is good.
2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.
3. I must always try to be a more honest person than I was yesterday.
4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.
5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.
6. I have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but there is no guarantee of equal results.
7. I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.
8. It is not "un"-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion.
9. The government works for me. I do not answer to them, they answer to me
Beck's "actual record" -- Support of Bush Regime $3Trillion in Debt and the destruction of our dollar.
Can I "forgive" yes -- But they are "obviously so so obviously" hijacking our phrases and our message.
In a Free-Society profit is still "occilation" however, it comes 100% from entrepreneurialism - intrapreneurialism - R&D - Innovation.
Napolitano make Fox money and so they will keep him -- he's the monkey that keeps their organization tied to the libertarian community. He's not a lackey -- he's sincere and his record stands for it. Keep friends close and enemies even closer; Murdoch is no ones fool.
If his show has a Constitutional Analyst then "everything" else they pump "MUST" be true -- right?
Wrong!
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Take the Good Doctors Lead
I understand your concern. I know that you are worried that this movement could be hijacked and we would fall for and follow someone that isn't really a champion for liberty. I don't think anyone here is giving up on the true liberty because they believe that Beck is sincere. I believe he is, and I have no problem admitting that I could be wrong. It's simply what I believe based on my own evolution into the freedom movement and what I know about Beck.
I do think Fox News is mainly interested in making money as most businesses do focus on making money. Freedom is popular and you can make money from anything popular. That is business. Would Fox News sell us out if they could make more money at it. Very possible. I don't really watch Fox News but I do catch Glenn on Youtube and I don't think anyone is telling him what to say. I think he is simply evolving in his understanding of freedom.
Yes, if you look at what Beck said in the past, you could say that he is contradicting himself. So, there are two possibilities. 1. He is changing for devious reasons. 2. He is changing for sincere reasons. I think they are sincere but I could be wrong. You may think number 2, but do you think you could be wrong too? In the end it doesn't really matter which one either of us believe.
I think Ron Paul is very wise in many of these cases.
He doesn't attack specific people and has never stated having a problem with Glenn Beck. He appears on his show often. He hasn't asked for an apology or retraction. I think if you asked Ron Paul today what he thinks about this change in Glenn Beck as compared to some of the past things he's said, I think Ron Paul still wouldn't be negative about Beck and would simply say he's glad to see him coming around. He generally welcomes people that really do seem to be coming around.
Ron Paul is forward looking.
You may argue that this is politically motivated. But I think that is how Ron Paul sees the world. As long as they are with us, lets use the momentum.
My main point is, people will come seeking out what we believe in because of Glenn Beck. Like it or not. The question is, will they see the reason of why we believe what we believe, or will they see us attacking someone they trust.
That is why personal attacks aren't useful. Lets win them over with logic and the idea of freedom.
Fantastic post. I agree
Fantastic post. I agree 100%.
Ventura 2012
I am done "joining" - I simply do my best to live it
What can "joining" Beck do for making me more self-sufficient? Nothing. I work at the county and local level in politics.
Lead by example, only follow if you are lost.
Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.
Not joining
I'm not saying Glenn is the new leader of the Freedom movement. I just think that participating in what he is doing and being a voice of reason on the freedom sides of the equation to the other people joining him is more productive bashing him.
There are a lot of people following him that are so close to being a part of the movement that it is an easier field to harvest from than other groups.
WELL SAID PUAL4WON!!!!!
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality