The Zeitgeist Movement: Orientation
Submitted by zapatista on Mon, 03/30/2009 - 18:14
Here is a presentation from Peter Joseph on a resource based economy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261
I thought it was very good. Here is someone with positive solutions for the problems facing the world today. I must admit that the more I hear Peter talk, the more I begin to think that he is right. I know many here are skeptical of Peter Joseph and I would like to know how they counter Peter's arguments against a monetary system. Please let's limit this discussion to logical arguments and stay away from name calling or accusations with no logical backing.
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Zeitgeist = false solution
The 2nd Zeitgeist movie provided solutions that were exactly the same as the NWO objectives. His solution to not be controlled by a select elite is to be controlled by a technological elite and computers which is precisely what the NWO want.
The 2nd half of the movie was all about the Venus Project. Venus is the morning star, which is also known as Lucifer. That is exactly what the Venus Project is; a Luciferean system.
Why else would Peter Joseph get such a nice piece in the NYT?
Zeitgeist was good at waking a lot of people up, hopefully they are awake enough to question the solutions proposed by such a con artist.
He may be a con-artist, but
He may be a con-artist, but so could anyone! Maybe even Dr. Paul! Who knows, they could all be in the hands of the NWO!! Oooh, scary! Trust no one! OH NO, the Morning star!!
But seriously, if you listened carefully without bias, you'd learn that using computers to analyze available resources would be no different than we are already doing today on a smaller scale. If people were allowed to manipulate the computers and therefore in some way create laws that takes away peoples' freedom - that's a different matter, and not what Joseph advocates.
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Compatible with anarchism
I'm not sure this is "anti-capitalist" as some say. The admonition of profit is not necessarily anti-capitalist. I say this because capitalism is is about creating capital, which is not the same as profit. From Joseph's view, profit is not about a fair exchange of labor for capital, but instead the extraction of capital from others. And this is how a monetary system works: by people competing for a limited amount of money to pay for things that are deliberately kept scarce, in the effort to compete for a limited amount of money to pay for things that are deliberately kept scarce... a vicious cycle that necessitates there being losers.
If you believe in social-Darwinism, that's great! This is how we can cleanse our society of the weak, right?
The underlying point of Zeitgeist is that we can do better than that. Everyone can win because we have technology to allow us to do so (if only it wasn't restrained for the sake of profit). People could and would VOLUNTARILY contribute to the advancement of technology and society, as opposed to being forced to in order to survive - which is what we suffer today.
In our current system, people who work several jobs and have nothing produce more for society than the richest people who do very little.
But of course, if we had a true anarcho-capitalist system, it would be more fair. But nevertheless, I'm sure it wouldn't last forever because some individuals and groups will eventually find a way to take-over, just like the central bankers have done over the past two centuries.
Obviously there are a lot of technical points about how we get from A to B. I just think these ideas are worthwhile to learn consider, and people's name-calling it "NWO" and "Marxist" is presumptuous and unfounded.
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"From Joseph's view, profit
"From Joseph's view, profit is not about a --=fair=-- exchange of labor for capital, but instead the extraction of capital from others."
-For Marx, profit is not about a --=fair=-- exchange of labor for capital, but instead the extraction of capital from others i.e. exploitation.
"Everyone can win because we have technology to allow us to do so (if only it wasn't restrained for the sake of profit)."
-Scarcity is a product of capitalist exploitation. See Marx and Keynes.
"In our current system, people who work several jobs and have nothing produce more for society than the richest people who do very little."
- In our current system, the proletariat does all of the work while the bourgeois capitalists exploit them. After all, real value comes from labor not consumer demand.- Karl Marx
This is classic Marxism. Just because that word has bad connotations doesn't mean it cant be applied accurately to something you like. Marx is the #1 read economist in Canada, its not like his is a dead ideology. It's like Obama balking at being called a socialist/fascist because it sounds bad. If it looks like a duck and quacks like one...
Ventura 2012
Well done
You're right, the Marxist analysis of capitalism is similar to Joseph's. But then again, probably all critical analysis of capitalism are about the same. I'm not a Marxist, but I don't disagree with the criticisms of exploitation - which there was in the 19th century, and which there is (in a different way) today.
I DO NOT however agree with the Marxist solution. And this is what distinguishes Joseph's views. As opposed to Marx, Joseph does not advocate central planning or government solutions. And this is precisely why I disagree with the "it is Marxist" comments and why I do find Joseph's ideas intriguing.
The bottom line is: Peter Joseph/Zeitgeist does not advocate central government, elite rulers, totalitarianism, or anything of the like. Rather, it is a pro-freedom alternative to monetarism/modern capitalism (as I see it). In practice, who knows?
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Who Is This "Peter Joseph"
Pops up out of the blue and says he, "has the answers".
Sounds like a cult!
He's startin' to look a little like Charles Mansion.
An hour and thirty-seven minutes?
That's asking a bit much. I've already watched Zeitgeist and the Zeitgeist Adendum, and I posted several objections here. So did others. You can google them up. Truth is, I've got to where I can't take the sound of his voice. I thoroughly dislike the disgust in his voice when he says "profit." His basic premises are antithetical to libertarianism.
We can agree with him that "Fed bad." Beyond that...what?
I think you're fishing in the wrong pond for converts to that's guy's particular flavor of central planning. Utopia. Plato thought of it first, and look how far he got with it. Oracle of Delphi, my foot.
Wait a minute. Central planning by computer. I'm a computer programmer. I could rule you all. Yes. YES! Bwahahahaha.
I understand
that the maker of this movie, Peter Joseph has stepped away from the 911 truth movement. First reign them (truthers) all in and then step away? Is he perhaps unknowingly from the other side?
I have to add that Zeitgeist in my mind never deserved all the attention it was given, but again, that is my personal opinion.
Joseph was misquoted on 9/11
in the New York Times article you are referring to. He said that he has gone away from talking about 9/11 because he said his piece on false flag terrorism in Zeitgeist and wanted to talk more about positive solutions. He posted the correction on his website. If this board has shown me anything it is that talking about 9/11 can at times be very counter-productive. The evidence is there for anyone who really wants to take the time and look at it. If someone does this and still believes the government's story, then they are using a different line of logic than I am and I have to respectfully disagree.
I have already watched this.
I have already watched this. I appreciate what Peter Joseph is doing. Despite being anarcho-capitalist myself, I am not afraid to admit that he has a point which I understood long ago - that corruption is inevitable. Doesn't matter how good your constitution or rule of law is, there will always be a few who gain enough power to take over.
I don't suppose that he provides the right solution. It's the analysis that I agree with most. Overall, I find it compelling, and not threatening. It is anti-government, anti-elitist, and freedom minded. That's what matters most. It is a very unique idea for our technological age, and I don't think comparable to pro-government Marxism as some wish to believe. If anything, it is too advanced for our age, and presents very long-term goals.
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What is inevitable is the
What is inevitable is the potential for corruption.
That a few bad apples will completely take over is not inevitable, it is merely less probable under some systems, and more probable under others.
Free-market capitalism and Constitutional law provide an excellent system of defense from corruption, even if American society has allowed itself to become extremely corrupt over the last couple of hundred years, as a result of its own ignorance.
If the United States has started out under a collectivist model, then the corruption would be far greater than what we have today, and there would not even be any hope for a restoration of freedom.
Zeitgeist Addendum is clearly on the side of the collectivist elite, because it claims that Capitalism is evil, and it also prescribes the same solutions that the collectivist elite have always prescribed.
www.exposetheilluminati.com
How do you have a free
Market in a forced tax system? You don't.
America did not start out
America did not start out having any income tax, and that had a lot to do with why it was so prosperous in the past.
Since it has devolved into such an empire, we are now teetering upon collectively realizing that we are bankrupt.
A revolution will ensue, and it will be up to us to make sure that it heads towards our limited government roots, and not any sort of collectivist NWO garbage such as Zeitgeist Addendum.
Zeitgeist is propaganda....
Beware of NWO propaganda and a gradual progression into demanding globalism.
The globalist zioncons desire to solve the problem by eradicating capitalism, which is the opposite of a "Free Market". The towers had to fall in their estimation, because the way to freedom is to make way for a one world patriotism system where we torture and imprison our enemies.
We are our own worst enemy....they knew this. Only through us demanding it can a World Government become reality...
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Important small bacteria
Never said give up individuality. You saying people for world peace and unity of goals to make all life equal and important isn't smart?
Like I said.. Illuminati or not the people as a whole control the reality.. empowering people is what Zeitgeist is about, who's to say that the Marxist ideology can't be hijacked for the people if they are all smart enough.
Just like when bacteria reach a critical mass they release proteins to signal their numbers and their toxins if not corrected kill the host..
Relative size and thinking out of the box is what I'm going for.
You want to make a difference.. Educate everyone on the planet to a 5 grade reading level and control the media with your message.
Arguing political points of view is becoming redundant to me. Maybe I'm thinking too big as of late.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Maybe everyone trying to
Maybe everyone trying to defend Zeitgeist sounds high as a kite because you'd have to be to believe this utopian fantasy. Sorry to be so harsh because you are a great poster, but I know people in RL as well who were dazed by Zeitgeist, and even after they stopped arguing with me they still don't want to admit that they were deceived.
Ventura 2012
I'm not talking about Addendum
I'm talking about Zeitgeist. I don't see how a movie that points out the FED, 9/11 False flag, and False Religions used to control minds is a bad thing.
Yes Addendum is far fetched.. Zeitgeist isn't.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
I learned alot from the original zeitgeist
never had an interest in addendum.
"It's just one big club... and WE ain't in it!"
"Tyrants fear nothing more than insubordination"
"It's just one big club... and WE ain't in it!"
Oh yeah, well there is some
Oh yeah, well there is some misinfo(not disinfo, there isnt any malicious intent) in that one too, but I agree with you. It was addendum that talked about the "resource-based" economy which was totally wack.
Ventura 2012
nwo loves that movement
no religion
Loves it? They came up with it.
Bill Clinton spoke at Zeitgeist one year.
Explore Orthodox Christianity
What?
please explain.. I'm curious.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
I too believe
and worship the flying spaghetti monster.
http://www.venganza.org/
Spirituality is good. Organized religions used to control people = bad.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Okay
Zeitgeist.. going against one world government is somehow showing that they are Marxists? I see a world that defines it's economic laws by thought or number.. Austrian vs Neoclassical mathematics... to deduct pricing for goods services etc..
Truth is we are all just energy formed by certain frequencies.
You step away from this planet an realize we are but bacteria on the surface in comparison to the sheer physical size of the planet then things come into perspective.
I like to refer to Carl Sagan.. The pale blue dot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
Every message can be hijacked.. It up to us to choose between fear or love to guide our thought process.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Carl Marx himself argued
Carl Marx himself argued that Communism would lead to a stateless, moneyless, utopia.
Also, the original Bavarian Illuminati called for the exact same things as well (it was a precursor to Marxism).
Yes, people use numbers to keep track of things that they are trading, do you have a problem with that?
What does energy frequency have to do with the fact that the most powerful people in the world are trying to make us their slaves through collectivism?
You just want us to feel like "small little bacteria" so that we will not mind it so much when we are asked to give up our individuality.
"Fear" VS "Love" is another false dichotomy in this case.
Those who are against Zeitgeist are smart.
Those who are for Zeitgeist are not.
www.exposetheilluminati.com
Important Small Bacteria
Never said give up individuality. You saying people for world peace and unity of goals to make all life equal and important isn't smart?
Like I said.. Illuminati or not the people as a whole control the reality.. empowering people is what Zeitgeist is about, who's to say that the Marxist ideology can't be hijacked for the people if they are all smart enough.
Just like when bacteria reach a critical mass they release proteins to signal their numbers and their toxins if not corrected kill the host..
Relative size and thinking out of the box is what I'm going for.
You want to make a difference.. Educate everyone on the planet to a 5 grade reading level and control the media with your message.
Arguing political points of view is becoming redundant to me. Maybe I'm thinking too big as of late. For future reference and personal reflection. Telling someone they are not smart for deciphering parts of zeitgeist and accepting that as truth is not a good way to support your side.
I don't support Zeitgeist any more than I support Collectivism. I'm arguing Ideologies. Zeitgeist points out some important truth you wont here other places.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
"Important small bacteria"
"Important small bacteria" sounds pretty ridiculous.
I am saying that people who believe that Marxism, veiled or otherwise, is going to create a fair and balanced society, are extremely naive.
The international banksters who financed the Bolshevik Revolution did not choose collectivism as their modus-operandi because it offered something that even resembled an even playing field for the masses.
Collectivism was chosen because it requires a strong central government to administer, and that is what will always give the rich and the powerful and easy way to dominate everyone, as long as human beings continue to be human.
People who argue that human nature, or even reality itself, are somehow just a simple matter of perception, are in fact often times used to sell the whole irrational idea of collectivism.
That is why the "New Age" movement focuses on such tripe, while the elite continuously attempt to mold us all into one New World Order collective.
www.exposetheilluminati.com
Relative size
Watch this and say all that again to yourself. We outnumber them.. as soon as we are smart enough to band together peacefully we will control the NWO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPumskk1dGk
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
I watched your video about
I watched your video about the relative size of things, ranging from sub-atomic particles, to the Milky Way galaxy, but the simple fact of the matter is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not collectivism on a large scale could actually function in an equitable manner for those involved.
Propagandists who sell any irrational concept such as this one, will often present their subjects with mind blowing information, as they attempt to induce them into accepting concepts which are utterly improbable.
I do not need to think about quarks and galaxies to understand that collectivism does not in fact work well for human beings.
www.exposetheilluminati.com