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I am somewhat amazed you are still pushing this to the front page after how many days. At this point I can only say this;

And this ( I wonder if you are old enough to remember the issue)

And finally this

The Plumber

The Plumber


Thank you so much for the reminder of what a great man he was. A genius. He would have been With us. Where are his children? I miss him.

Colchester, New London County, Connecticut

Blot out the Creator from the Declaration of Independence then..

And run the Constitution that was ratified "In The Year of Our Lord" [Christ] through the shredder as our masters want to as well!

Thank You for your support of a BETTER, self-restraining morality!

John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski


The Liberty the God-less will "secure" temporarily WILL NOT LAST - the Liberty I am advocating will last.

The only common ground we can have is COMPROMISE - and I will NOT compromise and consent to those who HATE the Word of God, and give up ANY of my FREEDOM for SECURITY - you want the Christians SILENCED; you do not want the history of our Republic, and your objections are NOT intellectual they are moral!

"Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them.; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet". — Robert Winthrop, 22nd U.S. Speaker of House

John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski

What exactly are you trying

What exactly are you trying to say, and to whom are you responding with this:

you want the Christians SILENCED; you do not want the history of our Republic, and your objections are NOT intellectual they are moral!

And what does it mean that you will not compromise or consent? What is it then that you would intend to do?

I intend to PREACH!

Somebody of importance is READING this thread; other Christians are REVIEWING their "commitment" to the movement of their time, talent, and treasure - versus growing and maturing in God's Word, and searching through it to discover their spiritual gifts and move towards getting on with God's Will for their lives!

(this reply was supposed to be placed under the "Fortunes Favors" post - I was directing this response to the one with the OTHER motive)

John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski

Fortune Favors the Bold "If

Fortune Favors the Bold

"If that is NOT the America you want to live in, I no longer want to strive with you, I do not wish to fight along side of you because our MOTIVES are truly different"

For me at least, this is true. My motives are indeed different.

Fortune Favors the Bold

This Nation

This nation was never founded on the morals of a Christian God. It was founded by Freemasons.


Blessings )o(



John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski

The early freemasons and the

The early freemasons and the founding fathers were deists.

But our nation at is

But our nation at it's founding had many God-fearing Christians in its population. This, I believe, is what helped us remain a strong and moral nation for as long as we did.

However, you are right. I grow increasingly concerned with what I see as Americanism -- the worship of America. America has been a blessed nation, but that does not mean that she has always been a righteous one. We need to be careful not to place our country on too high of a pedestal. When the love of country eclipses the love of God, there is no end to the atrocities that can be justified in the name of patriotism.

..and all God's people said...


John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski

Morality > Religion

All religions, and those who evangelize about them claim to maintain the moral high ground. While the spiritual scriptures of all but the most barbaric of these religions are, infact, moral guides to all men, they are not the only path to morality.

We have seen, through the courses of history, that men invoking the "word" of God have committed massive atrocities. The Dark Ages, Crusades and Inquisition are the first that come to mind.

Therefore we must define morality in a religiously neutral way. Our definition of morality must be based upon the initiation of Force.

Please read my reply concerning actual numbers below.

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."


...as in Foxe's Book of Martyrs...where Christians were persecuted and killed by the professing Christian Church?

...and people think that Muslim terrorists are martyrs? They are the severely deceived ATTACKERS on OFFENSE; not those unrepentant to GOVERNMENT, unwilling to recant for believing in an authority higher than Caesar!

John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski

Read This....

If this "revolution" is a secular one, it will be headless and heartless. Similar to the bloody French revolt that resulted in several hundred innocent preachers and business owners being publicly decapitated by the Jacobins. Atheistic revolutions throughout history always erect a power twice as tyrannical. Once the bloody "cleansing" starts, it has no set of laws to determine what Justice is, it becomes subjective. People who don't want to examine history ignore the fact that a deep presupposition of the existence of God was the very backbone of the succession of the United States from king George's empire. We did so under the colour and letter of the law. King George himself called our movement the "Presbyterian Uprising." Today, we live in an amoral society that has been under the thumb of a state sponsored "secularisation" of the people for decades through such tools as public schools (aka state indoctrination camps) and celebrity worship. Selfishness has replaced liberty and the Evangelicals have all but ruined the name of the real church by trying to legislate morality (an act that completely defies Biblical Laws concerning the role of the state.) All that you can do as a Christian is to shine like a lighthouse of truth in pitch-black sea of shit. I would spend allot more energy if I where you studying apologetics so that you can intelligently defend your faith and "close the mouths of fools." Here is a link to a full presuppositional apologetics course on youtube. The relativistic world-view of atheistic empiricism collapses into absurdity quite easily if you understand eschatology and what the nature of reality is in it's self.


"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."


Witch hunts and the inquisition were very moral. Religion has plenty of blood on its hands. In fact, I think it would be arguable that over the history of our civilization organized religion has killed more people then organized atheism.
I don't argue that the founders were religious men. I just get nervous around zealots. And because I've met very few non-religious zealots...well, perhaps you understand?

OK, thanks for biting.....

Do you even know how many "witches" died in the US? I am assuming not. It seams you have partaken in the dangerous act of parroting sound-bites without researching. The total number is 12. Not to mention that it was the lawyers who championed execution during the witch trials. The pastors spoke out virulently against it. The Spanish inquisition started because the state took control of the church and used it for political means. Guess how many lives that took? 3000 in 334 years. Now lets examine the death toll of Atheism in the 20th century alone.

Stalin - 9,000,000
Hitler - 11,000,000
Lenin - 8,000,000
Mao - 60.000,000
Pol Pot - 1,000,000
Young Turks -1,500,000
Mussolini - 300,000

of course these are just the "mainstream" tyrants. It's estimated that the total number of deaths in the 20th century at the hands of atheists is around 200 million. When humans are just animals and men define morality, killing men, women and children becomes act as trivial as slaughtering diseased chickens in order to preserve the health of the flock.

I understand public sentiment concerning zealots, I feel the same way. But your acting like one when you mock somebody's personal beliefs. Especially when your facts are so incredibly off.

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

I would never

contend that there haven't been tyrants that have killed a lot of people. And in the last century we've seen some truly horrific numbers. It may be true that more people have died from non-religious tyrants than religious ones. As far as I know atheism as a form of government is a relatively new idea. Religion has been stepping on humans for a long time. I wonder how the numbers stack up as a function of the percent of the population. I also wonder how much technology would have changed the number if the Crusaders had had cruise missiles? Or the Inquisition black SUVs and dubbing equipment?

And yes, I was mocking, gleefully so. I will mock anyone who goes ranting in crazy circles.

As for men defining morality, please give me a break. Man created most religions as a way to make himself feel better about death, bad luck and thunderstorms and/or as a way to give him power over other men. Just because a large number of people believe something doesn't make it true ( the world is not flat and women are not chattel) . A lot of people believe in Islam, does that mean its the "right" religion?

The truth of the matter is that man has never needed an excuse to do horrible things to other men, but religion has been used as one many times. As an atheist I don't find myself compelled to condemn anyone to punishment except where a crime has been committed against someone else. Coveting thy neighbor's wife, while in poor taste and sometimes a dangerous thing to do, doesn't warrant "criminal" in my mores. I believe that all individuals are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as harm isn't visited upon another individual.

I can tell that you mean well, but....

Your reasoning is fallacious. For instance, in Russia starvation was the biggest tool of death, not SUV's or whatever. I am not defending religion as a whole, but the Christian Faith of the Old and New Testament. You state:

"Man created most religions as a way to make himself feel better about death, bad luck and thunderstorms and/or as a way to give him power over other men."

Can you demonstrate this as a fact? Even if you really were convinced of this, then please explain to me where morality comes from. Does it grow on a tree in Virginia? Is it the subjective consensus of a body of people? Well, we know the former is ridiculous, but if the latter is true, then wasn't Hitler acting on the common relative morality of his people? This is the thing, an atheist can't have his cake and eat it too. The empirical world view makes objectivity impossible, therefore appealing to universal abstract entities such as "truth" or "morality" is to presuppose the existence of a self proclaiming God of the universe. This is because if reality is merely the perception of a collection of particulars, then how one mind perceives them has no logical or universal relation to how another mind perceives them. This is the problem with the "one and the many" and is what sent Plato straight into mysticism as well as the derivation of "Hume's Fork" and so forth.

Furthermore, coveting was never punishable by the state even in the times during Mosaic law.

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."


the catholic church is tallying in somewhere at 10 million + people its been responsible for killing sooooo... i say religion sucks. and well ... tyrants in general suck.

First off, I don't view the catholic church as valid.

Where are you getting these numbers from? If you are talking about the crusades, which was a war for territory, then you are wrong by about 9 million. We have no real numbers, only guesses. The current estimate is 1 million over the span of all 11 crusades and half of those where Christians. If you are speaking of the inquisition, then that number, as I stated before, was 3000 over a period of 334 years. Face it, you just don't want to be judged. I don't blame you for this. Sin is pretty fun. Except for that whole "leading to death" part. All tyrants do suck, but my point here is that they are almost always atheistic or into the occult. It's just a fact, you need a new reason to hate God, because you current excuse is easily refuted.

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

Me either

I wish the Catholic Church would end.

Matthew 23 & Revelation 2:6

Would be Jesus' opinion of the Catholic Church, which is MORE of an "EMPIRE" than America is!

You're right - RELIGION does stink! That's why followers of the Lord Jesus Christ have a RELATIONSHIP with the Creator, not a religion of WORKS to follow!

Nancy Pelosi, Newt Gingrich(a reported recent convert), Sean Hannity, those who invited Obama to speak at Notre Dame...it's one big THEATER that capitalizes on their laity heaping more sin to themselves and not falling under conviction for lying, drunkeness, pornography, raw greed, coveteousness, adultery - you name it!

...countless THOUSANDS of others follow Church DOCTRINE, and the writings of dead "saints"; and NOT the text of the Bible...I think we'd better ask THEM(Catholics) where they stand on the unadulterated Word of God and our nation's founding -

The Catholic church was a place that shamed a girl for holding a man's hand and making him sweat while dating only 50 years ago in Long Island, New York...not so strict anymore, are they?

Imagine how strict they were back at our nation's founding?

Why did the Pilgrims LEAVE the state-run Anglican church? Compromise, HYPOCRISY...based on what they read in their Geneva bible's.

Let's divide and CONQUER this sect of Christianity; politically and spiritually - by using the Sword of the Lord!

John E. Eleniewski

John E. Eleniewski

Alrighty then!

It's... ~Checking watch~ 7:52 CST.. I declare this thread officially dead. Although the corpse seems to still be ranting....

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~


In Salem alone at least 25 were killed, as far as witches in the US. The practice of ~vetting~ witches in the United States has ensured that the number is far larger. I also noticed that you only brought up the US and kinda forgot the witch hunts in Ireland, England, Germany, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

The ~Spanish~ Inquisition probably killed around 32,000, yes. That was not the only inquisition, however.

Kinda missed the Crusades as well... 1 to 5 million there....

You may also throw Hitler off of one list and onto the other...

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

Adolf Hitler, 1922 speech.

If you are going to research, don't just pick the facts that support your theory.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

Hitler was an occultist. He lied to gain support.

As we now know, once he gained he executed millions of Christians as well as jews. Your witch numbers are just wrong. It was 12. Many of the deaths that where first thought to be the punishment of witchcraft was later found to be for things such as bestiality and rape. They merely thought witchcraft and possession where the cause of these acts. The Inquisition numbers you give are very wrong. All secular resources agree that it was 3,000 to 5,000 at the most. The crusades were wars over territory and they, like the inquisition, where the result of the merging of the church with the state. The Church has always been corruptible (e.g.. the neocons) but pound for pound the Godless state has been many times more repugnant towards mankind in the eyes of history. This is an obvious fact.

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

"This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave."

Hitler was a Christian according to himself.

Are you, according to you? Make up my mind here...lol

I'm not off on the Salem witch trials, as I am quoting Deodat Lawson, an eyewitness. I'm also being nice to you and not including other burnings, hangings, crushings, etc that have happened since in other countries besides the US and here as well.

The inquisition numbers I'm giving you are referenced by the courts of Spain... guess they were wrong and you were right. The Crusades were a Christian war... to try to fluff that out of the conversation is pure nonsense. I'm also not including the religious purgings in France, Italy, etc.

The simple fact is that a religious viewpoint does not make you moral. A lack of one does not either. So your arguement that christianity is somehow better because they have killed millions, but have killed millions less than another viewpoint is just silly.

What we can say is that religion can be used as a method of control. And it has, oh yes it has. Check out what the Vatican is worth and its influence and then tell me it is all about you being closer to the God you believe in.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

I assert that religion is

I assert that religion is simply a worldview. Humanism or Atheism can be just as much of a religion as Christianity.

I think you could possibly narrow down things to two basic groups: those that feel that there is a universal judge, and those that feel that people must judge one another. As a Christian, I believe the Bible when it says that God alone is the judge -- that he will mete out judgment on the evil and reward the good. But the atrocities throughout history were conducted by those who believed that they wielded the authority -- rather from God, natural selection, or the power of might -- to exert their will upon others by force.

Just looking at the world today, you can see that most religions are divided along these boundaries with some promoting peace and freedom and some forcing their religious agenda.

Now, I do not believe that all of those who do not wish to force their agenda on others are correct either. When you look across all of those religions, you will see that they contradict each other. They simply cannot all be true. But for the sake of studying why men kill men in the name of religion, I think this distinction is helpful. At least in this respect, people like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and Ron Paul have something in common -- they live by example and seek peace with their fellow men.