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Respectful rebuttal to Mr. Nystrom in the Freedom of speech/censorship/facist debate

Dear Mr. Nystrom,

I have been an almost-daily visitor to your Bull!Not Bull website and it's previous encarnation for over four years. The wide-ranging and insightful articles you post have greatly expanded my worldview and educated me on an immense range of topics over that time. Your website and kindred others first introduced me to Ron Paul and his thinking several months ago. I sincerely want to thank you for that - it has forever changed my life for the better.

My wife and I are libertarian-souled, 30-something, college educated, former non-voting (jaded)Democrats. For months now, DailyPaul has allowed us to follow the grassroots growth of a revolution that has a chance at being remembered forever in american history. Our apathy has been cured, we have changed parties and are actively spreading the Ron Paul message to all who will listen. Again, I want to thank you for your tireless passion and creative work here on Daily Paul.

Unfortunately, this morning I unintentionally became the "seed" of discontent and dischord in a few Forums/topics that has spread to the current arguements raging regarding the DailyPaul structure/freedom of speech/censorship/hints of facism/negativity police. Upon recently coming back to the site today I have read these new posts with great concern. If you would allow me to briefly revisit the facts of what happened this morning, I feel a CRUCIAL distinction between these areas of disagreement and what I feel is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING Ron Paul stands for can be illuminated for all of us to reflect upon.

To recap: in the wee hours of the morning here in Arizona, I stopped by the site and read several posts regarding the campaign email requesting money earlier and more consistently than "money bombs" and before the Tea Party of 12/16/07. I posted a new Forum topic called "New Hampshire not worth a 100 Tea Parties" that I felt was a reasoned, if somewhat critical view on the debate. These comments are still to be read under the same heading in the "Paul needs $ NOW" blog post for anyone who wishes to.

I was trying to bring up important campaign strategy that I sincerely felt would ultimately achieve the dual goals of a HISTORIC Tea Party sucess AND a WIN in New Hampshire, Iowa, etc. I fully expected disagreement and debate, in fact was eagerly looking forward to hearing other valued points of view.

The first response was from "bigjohn12" who accused me of being either "a traitor or and idiot". I was subsequently accused of being not a "Real Ron Paul supporter". Fine by me, hardly hurting words. Replies went out. Soon enough, more reasoned responses and thoughts began to trickle in. The debate was engaged! I read a couple of other Forums and posted another response similar in vein. Upon returning to the main page I found that the ENTIRE Forum had been deleted! I certainly did not "flag" it, even though I guess I would be the only one offended. I was a bit frustrated, because I was sure that something constructive and uniting could come from discussing an important topic. I could not believe that the "baby" had been thrown out with the "bathwater". I quickly found that my other response had been removed from the other Forum. I began to think I was being selectively deleted from the discussions due to my somewhat negative and critical view on the official campaign funds useage. I used courtesy and NO PROFANITY - simply brought up some uncomfortable ideas.

So why was I censored? It was clearly done by Mr. Nystrom, someone hosting for him, or the site operating system in place. Someone else posted a Forum "Flagged as Offensive?", and a couple of us (ironically including both myself and bigjohn12) began a discussion of the flagging occuring recently on this site of all things negative or critical. Someone else posted a comment that was intended as a response to my forum but was deleted that suggested in very thoughtful language that censorship of negativity is a tool of a facist/totalitarian organization. I left the site with my enthusiasm somewhat dampened, not by what was said in response to my post, but to the "unseen hand" deciding WHAT was to be discussed.

To return later today and find "bigjohn12" "banned" by Mr. Nystrom and to read the reasoning he and several others came up with in comments has me deeply concerned. The train of thought followed by Mr. Nystrom under "Redcoats - AKA Neo-Rons" forum is disturbing. If we are all not very careful we are destined to become those we wish to replace in this revolution. Please let me explain.

To censor a discussion between people by removing from the table any uncomfortable or "negative" topics limits the range of ideas and conclusions available to all present. Knowledge and wisdom are almost always gained through a complex and often violent dance between opposing forces/facts/opinions.

To actively censor/restrict/eliminate someones opinions from a discussion because of their mannerisms or because the MAJORITY PRESENT DOES NOT AGREE also limits possible wisdom and knowledge to be gained by all. This includes "keeping the negative comments in another section of the site" and "flagging" a post as offensive. Is it not this EXACT censorship almost all of us believe mainstream media practice with Dr. Paul, or for that matter mainstream AMERICA? Paid-for polls, two party systems, etc. His message is deeply offensive to established bureacracies, institutions and people currently in power and they are ACTIVELY seeking to restrict his voice at every opportunity. Must we do the same to our fellow revolutionaries? Or worse, to POTENTIAL allies?

The analogy of DailyPaul as the private "living room" of Mr. Nystrom is simply wrong, and limits the potential of all we can do. This is NOT a small gathering of close personal friends and relatives personally invited by Mr. Nystrom. This site has been advertised, promoted and hyped hugely, without discression, in hopes of attracting NEW RON PAUL supporters. That is a GOOD thing, but a more accurate image for this site is of renting out a convention center and welcoming in all who walk by. To then mill around from conversation to conversation and "referee" based not on common courtesy, but CONTENT and STYLE is overstepping the "promoters" rights.....if they wish to hold themselves as different than the established system and an example of the MOST IMPORTANT THING RON PAUL COULD STAND FOR - A DIFFERENT WAY FORWARD FOR THIS COUNTRY! Something dreamed about by the founding fathers and hinted at in our history books. Is this not what we ALL want? What we ALL know our country NEEDS?

To practice on a local level what is at the very heart of our national "disease"....we shall reap what we sow.

This is NOT a First Ammendment arguement, for freedom of speech is at it's essence simply "proper procedure" in the national conversation. The fundamental distinction is this: Can we, as a people, at any level of organization or size of gathering, AFFORD TO practice censorship by limiting the TOPICS, TONE, or OPINOINS in a discussion, provided it is being undertaken without threat of violence or hate? To repeat: this is NOT "freedom of speech"...it is FREEDOM OF POSSIBLE KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM, CHOICES, CONCLUSIONS, and SUCESSES we wish for ourselves to have access to. THAT is the FREEDOM of Ron Paul.

SO....Mr. Nystrom, I very sincerely and respectfully ask you ...as I and every Ron Paul supporter here at DailyPaul should ASK OURSELVES....

What do WE WANT DailyPaul to be? Is it indeed simply a "house party" for those in the agreed-upon majority already; for those "positive" enough to let everyone sleep well at night; for those unquestioning in their beliefs; for those whom wish to "cheer" for their home team while being poite enough to not ruffle feathers?........Or do we want it to be an INTERNATIONAL focus point for "ALL things Ron Paul"....the BIGGEST tent in the land, welcoming conflict, discussion and growth in our individual conversations as we would welcome the same process in our countries' leadership and direction.

So, let me/us/ourselves know. The goal is still the same - get Ron Paul and WHAT HE REPRESENTS elected as President. I like our chances better as a ragtag buch of misfit heroes united not behind a figure, slogan or flag, but bound together by common beliefs, goals, agreements and understandings that have EVOLved from previous skirmishes and quarrels WITHIN our ranks.....BATTLE TESTED. Convincing a stranger to support Ron Paul will be infinitely easier if we have all answered each others questions and resolved our disagreements BEFORE hand.

"To really taste the sweet, one must KNOW the bitter".

Sincerely,

Bradley and Amber Moore




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Getting Ron Paul Elected should be our number one concern

The site is called Daily Paul not Daily Bradly nor Daily Amber. It should serve to get Ron Pauls message out, motivate support, donations and hopefully get Ron Paul elected.
The content should highlight the above goals. Ron Paul's message is not racist, it is not combative, and it is not offensive. If there are a few bruised egos on the way then it is a price we need to pay to get him elected.
As it was set up before, it was too easy for a troll to enter and post whatever offensive headline and let the thread form a life of its own. To lose even one potential supporter because of such a thread is not in our interest. Even worse would be someone in the media later using the troll's thread to combat Ron Paul being elected.
Lets get Ron Paul elected and focus on that!

Right! Some STILL miss the point...

But obviously some people would rather argue over who has authority to do what here, when the point is, which they miss, why call attention to negative stuff that's been dealt with?

To me this whole thread is inappropriate. This site is to share info about RP, period, not add fuel to the detractors by putting their headlines in the search engines FOR THEM. D'uh.

Time is running out

I have read all of the posters on here about censorship, freedom of speech etc, etc. IMHO, this site is Mike's site and extremely important to Ron Paul's campaign. The posts from dailypaul are at the TOP of the list of Google searches. Therefore, Mike and Mike only has the responsibility to make sure that people who are searching for Ron Paul information see information that shows Dr Paul as he is, a true patriot and our only hope.

Personally, I am sick and tired of the people who make stupid comments and start arguments for the sake of their entertainment. There is so little time left because the first primary occurs in less than 6 weeks so I say to all of you, what you say on this website can help or hurt Dr Paul's chances of being elected and I for one will stand by Mike 100% for not allowing all of the negative and destructive posts on dailypaul. I do not envy his responsibility of having to deal with some of these ridiculous posts and constantly having to defend himself for no reason. I say Kudo's to Mike for he is a true patriot and supporter of Dr Paul and with his hard work, Dr Paul will win not only the primaries but the entire election.

All of you have a choice right now and that is either you are supportive of Ron Paul or you have your own personal adjenda. We don't have the time to be arguing about stupid issues or your personal rights because if Dr Paul does NOT win this election, it won't matter because you will lose ALL of your freedoms and you will only have yourselves to blame. I for one like the flagging idea, I am now seeing articles, video's and information about Dr Paul that everyone needs to see in order to pass along to others to keep the revolution going. So get off of Mike's back, he's doing an awesome job and instead of criticizing him, thank him!

If you want to fight for your freedom, then call your Senators about Senate Bill S1959 "Homegrown Terrorism" and get that bill stopped before President Ron Paul takes office. Let's do everything we can to fight for our freedoms before he takes office instead of arguing about foolish things that only hurt him and his true supporters. Fight for Ron Paul and fight for your freedom! United we stand, divided we fall.

Clearly...

Some of us are not as internet savvy as we are made out to be. I read the whole thing as well as ALL the responses.here goes...

Things I think some of you need to repeat to yourself...
1. This is not my site, if I don't like it I may leave.
2. This site is not "public".
3. It's obvious I have not been on many forums and do not know of which I speak.
5. If I don't like it I may create, host, code,promote, and moderate a site of my own.

Welcome to the internet. Any more questions can be answered here....
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/

Note: above link contains crude language, and was my introduction to the internet community's about 8 years ago , after a situation such as this ....

I learned my lesson, Will everyone else?

_____ _____ _____ _____ ______ ______ _____ ___
"The time is near at hand which we must determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves."

George Washington
First President of the USA.
http://digitaldiesel.net/index.php?action=forum

≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈ ≈
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make
violent revolution inevitable."
John F. Kennedy

This is a large and diverse

This is a large and diverse group, and we are bound to get into heated discussions/disagreements. My policy is that if the thread becomes personal, stay away from it for a few days. Our common goal is to get Ron Paul elected, so let's get to it. Everything else is trivial.

I'm not reading all that.

Cliff Notes?

and BEWHEW?

Same here

If a guy can't get to the point in 200 words or less, forget about it.

Without actually reading this forum, I'm guessing it's one of those "you're not playing fair, and I'm taking my ball home" kind of things.

And that's hardly worth the eye strain involved in reading that much.

In the words of...

that great American Rodney King. Can't we all just get along? The flag is something that was needed.The posts that brought it about were probably the profanity laced tirades we have seen in the last 2 weeks. I was the target of some of these as was many of you currently logged in. Healthy debate is good,sharing ideas and information,offering help, or just giving someone a good laugh to bring us together is not the problem. Just my humble opinion.

I didn't read your post, as

I didn't read your post, as it was LONG! Look, if someone sent me a five page letter telling me why they can walk in to my back yard and yell about whatever they wanted, I'd laugh and then have them arrested when they did start yelling in my back yard. This is Michael's back yard. GET OFF THE LAWN, TROUBLEMAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

So,

you failed to read the entire post and you posted against it anyway?

Goose-step much?

Michael Nystrom's picture

How's your little project going?

You said you were flagging posts, then trying to clear your cache, then flag them three more times to get rid of them.

How's that working for you?

'Always be yourself. Everyone else is taken.' - Oscar Wilde

I addressed that issue a few

I addressed that issue a few posts down.

I just hear someone yelling

I just hear someone yelling in the backyard. I don't care what they were yelling about. I was trying to sleep. Someone causing trouble on private property; get them out of here. I don't care if they were screaming "Your candidate is number one!!!," over and over again. I want a peaceful back yard. If I don't want them yelling in my back yard, they are out of there.

I was..

posting a response to an article here and before I could post it the article was gone.

I have very little faith in the integrity of ANY online "community".

Anyone can corrupt it just by logging in.

Michael Nystrom's picture

I find that very hard to believe

There hasn't been a post removed via the flagging function this evening. I just checked. What was the title of the thread you were commenting on? I'll check on it.

It takes five votes to remove a comment or thread. So you are wrong that "anyone can corrupt it just by logging in."

Michael

'Always be yourself. Everyone else is taken.' - Oscar Wilde

Actually, Mike

I was commenting on the Alex Jones post and when I hit the submit button, it was gone. Page Not Found and all that. So unless you agreed with one of the people who said that Alex Jones posts and all mention of him on any Ron Paul forum is a bad thing and flat out deleted it, then it was removed through the flag.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Posters can remove their own posts

I didn't take it down, and neither did the flagging system.

'Always be yourself. Everyone else is taken.' - Oscar Wilde

Just as a quick aside

I know the page went down for a few mins around 2-3 EST, it wasn't around then was it?

-James

No, it was about a half an

No, it was about a half an hour ago.

Michael Nystrom's picture

The poster has a false premise

If you read down further, you'll see that the post he talks about was never removed. He just failed to see it because no one commented on it and it fell off the front page. He then builds his entire case around this false premise. I don't think this was intentional. However, it does need to be noted, and I would respectfully ask John Galt to correct his error.

The reason that I added the 'flag as offensive' feature is because:

1) A bunch of people thought it was a good idea and requested it
2) My realization, with the help of the community, that as we get closer to the election, there will be more and more infiltrators and agent provocateurs who will attempt to use this site (and others) as a way to undermine Dr. Paul.

Based on 1 & 2, I decided the time was right to set this up.

Can we, as a people, at any level of organization or size of gathering, AFFORD TO practice censorship by limiting the TOPICS, TONE, or OPINOINS in a discussion, provided it is being undertaken without threat of violence or hate?

My answer is yes. For example, this is not a place to discuss the TOPIC of dog racing. That may or may not sound ridiculous to you, but if I deleted a post on dog racing, could / would the poster then cry censorship? In other words, I have to draw the line somewhere. TONE is important to discussion. As long as the tone remains respectful, any kinds of OPINIONS are welcome here.

The internet is a big place, and you can find a place to discuss most anything you like somewhere. In short, I AM NOT CENSORING YOU! I AM NOT PREVENTING YOU FROM LEARNING ABOUT, OR DISCUSSING DR. PAUL. For pete's sake, have you ever heard of GOOGLE?

Convincing a stranger to support Ron Paul will be infinitely easier if we have all answered each others questions and resolved our disagreements BEFORE hand.

Absolutely. I agree, and I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately, it is not.

We'll try this out for a while, and if it doesn't work out, well, then we'll try something else out. That's what life is all about!

If you find these guidelines out of line, then I am very, very sorry. There are a ton of other forums to go to:

http://futurewithronpaul.blogspot.com/2007/11/yahoo-groups-f...

Best regards,
Michael Nystrom

'Always be yourself. Everyone else is taken.' - Oscar Wilde

Must be working.

I have noticed a vast improvement for supporters of Ron Paul over a couple of weeks ago.

Join PyraBang the peoples search engine.

This paradox has yet to be resolved on this site

This is the public/private paradox in a nutshell. The Commons is the place where people consent to less control in order to meet as equals. Private property is the domain of the proprietor--a place of invitation. It is inherently hierarchical and operates at the owner’s discretion.

Human beings are both private and public. They need both. How? How?

PS: This is one of the best functioning sites I have seen. So thank you Mr. Nystrom for all of the effort.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Thank you

For the observation and the compliment.

Michael

'Always be yourself. Everyone else is taken.' - Oscar Wilde

I agree with the orginal

I agree with the orginal poster on most points, in principle. As to the details of this case, I am wholly unfamiliar.

There has been a trend here and on other unofficial RP websites towards asserting that a person can do whatever they want with their property, and then extrapolating that to unusual lengths.

There is, however, a serious difference between 'could' and 'should'. It is, in essence, the reciprocal of Hume's famous 'is from an ought' problem in ethics.

Many regulars to RP sites are deriving an 'ought' from an 'is'. Simply because a website 'is' yours does not mean that you 'ought' to do whatever you want. This applies to me as the owner of WWRPD.org and Paulunteer.com as much as it does to Michael Nystrom, Trevor Lyman, or any other website owner.

Here is something I wrote in reply to a similar issue recently:

"There is a difference between acting reasonably according to one's conscience and behaving unreasonably according to one's whims.

The ideology of Libertarianism does not propose that we destroy all bonds and social contracts. People have obligations to others. Some of these obligations are more binding than others.

The most admirable among us are those who hold ourselves to higher standards and stricter contracts than those demanded by society.

I maintain that it is not unreasonable of me to demand the same of those who are in positions of authority, whether those positions be earned or bestowed by happenstance.

To refrain from doing so is to endorse anarchy at the best and tyranny at the worst.

For my part, I understand that The Paulunteer is, by design, not my personal soapbox. The subscribers and I have entered into a tacit social contract and if I stray from the constraints of that contract then I fully expect to be taken to task for it."

It is incumbent upon website owners to decide how they 'ought' to behave, just as it is incumbent upon the rest of us to take owners to task when they stray from using good judgment.

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Brian Bailey, Editor
Ron Paul 2008
Southwestern Illinois County Coordinator

Flagged topics *can* be restored...

Please dont forget everyone that just because a post or article or user is flagged as inappropriate doesnt mean its history. Michael gets to review the flagged items and if found appropriate can restore them to the site. If they really ARE inappropriate they are removed for good!

And the inverse can also be argued. If someone is CONSISTENTLY going around flagging things as inappropriate that arent, then they should be considered for removal. Those ARE obviously people trying to make other people mad and distrupt things. So I hope Michael is taking the *other-side-of-the-coin" in consideration.

By the way... post that one just dont agree with should not be considered inappropriate... we are all *hopefully* adults here and have the god-given-sense to know what is truly appropriate and what is not... just dont flag someone because you dont believe in what they post. Michael is just wanting people to be civil and obedient. Again I say Ron Paul is not an anarchist (we had the ancarchist discussion here), Ron Paul supports civil obedience and the right to protest I am sure but not *civil disobedience*

This is a discussion...

for another time. Having something removed from this site does not infringe on anyones right to free speech. Your speech on this site costs money, the person who funds this dialouge gets to set the rules. End of Story.
facist? Our contry is in a facist shift -arguing about this site only gives more time to those who will truly ban free speech. The owner of this site will not jail you - without charge - in a secret prison somewhere. The owner of this site is trying to get one of the few honrable public servents in the office of president so that you will always have the right to free speech. That is what is at stake here, nothing less.
Please do not take this personlly.
rn

Liberty = Responsibility

can't put my finger on it

but I'm thinking maybe its no fun to say anything anymore. Just the thought that there is someone policing me here is enough to dissuade me from participation. Like consenting to being frisked or something. I don't like it. I think I'll exercise my right to depart. Goodbye. _______________________________

..Without the truth we have nothing

_______________________________

..Without the truth we have nothing

Michael Nystrom's picture

Goodbye Dave

It was nice knowing you. Maybe we'll meet again on the other side of the revolution.

'Always be yourself. Everyone else is taken.' - Oscar Wilde

If he didn't ban some people

If he didn't ban some people, I would be annoyed by that and would leave too. It's a difficult call to make.

"What does conservatism today stand for? It stands for war. It stands for power. It stands for spying, jailing without trial, torture, counterfeiting without limit, and lying from morning to night."

Lew Rockwell

Boy have I been busy today

This debate has been argued back and forth for a long while today, and this is by far the best summary of the "other side" I've seen yet. Not to mention the most well put.

I'm going to remind the poster of the Thanksgiving scene in Atlas Shrugged, where Mr. Rearden threatens to throw his brother out of his house if he won't quit with the insults.

That is the image I hold in my mind whenever I hear someone here chanting about their free speech being trampled on while they're posting on someone else's website. While I personally don't agree with the idea of flagged posts being automatically removed, the manner in which the topic is being spoken about is disgusting and uncalled for. This is the first real exception I've seen.

You ask above:
Can we, as a people, at any level of organization or size of gathering, AFFORD TO practice censorship by limiting the TOPICS, TONE, or OPINOINS in a discussion, provided it is being undertaken without threat of violence or hate?

The answer is yes, but again, to an extent. This is not the Treehouse of Tad Williams novels where anything and everything is fair game. This is open discussion with aan expectation of focus to some degree. For example, this is not a forum for the debate of 9/11. It may come up, but if it becomes the sole topic of conversation in an area, it is a waste of Mr. Nystrom's time and bandwith. Can we ignore it? Sure. But is it here in the first place where it doesn't belong?

Why is it permissible to censor at this site? Because it's not happening in a way like it is made out to be. Someone who doesn't like the idea of a blimp will not go around and flag every blimp related post.

I'm assuming you're using my example of this being a house party, yet you've strangled the meaning of the metaphor. It is an open-house party, and to insult the host is the worst form imagineable. For instance, if a friend invites you to dinner and says grace, even for your lack of religeon you do not speak while they are engaging in prayer. You do not stand on your chair and say, "We have freedom in religion in this country! We atheists are only 10% of the population and can't afford to go along with this sort of behavior before dinner! Who's with me?!!" Attempting to get the guests to go into full throttle disagreement mode and start a fierce debate over something completely extraneous to the dinner.

If they serve on paper plates, you do not tell them they're guilty environment haters and then lead a boycott among the party guests.

It's just rude.

You may bring your point up in private, you may even offhandly ask, "Hey John, ever think about the money you'd save by not wasting all these plates every time we're over?"

You do NOT insult the host or attempt to embarass him publically due to his or decision.

I am all for the conflict of ideas. I've had it out with a number of people on this site where we do not agree. It has only very SELDOMLY denigrated to any form of namecalling. One of those times was today during the bigjohn12 charade. After all the "to-do" of being called "terrorists" by Glenn Beck, you'd expect someone on this forum to have more taste than to call anyone not agreeing with him a "traitor," and then to continue further insulting the crowd without logic nor reasoning to back his posts.

Does Michael Nystrom really strike you all as some sort of fascist dictator? Bathing in his own ego as he watches the hits to his website? Has he ever tried to force his opinion by sheer virtue of his control?

I again don't like the way the flag is set, I feel it is too sensitive, but I DO agree that having some way of letting the moderators know a post may be unwelcome and having it set for review. It's a compromise, and it may not be the best, but personal attacks are not the way to disagree. Send an email, or present your points as Bradley and Amber Moore have in this format, LOGICALLY.

-James (Moore, btw, but that's just a coincidence)