Ron Paul's Foreign Policy
Submitted by doronster195 on Sun, 11/25/2007 - 07:21
So I was talking to someone who is studying Political Science in college right now, and he was explaining the whole Iraq war to me. And said that after we took Saddam out of power we put Iraq in chaos because there isnt another leader who can keep the under control, at least we haven't found one yet. And he said that we couldn't just pull out without a good leader (he said it would have to be a dicatator to keep order there). So what would Ron Paul do about this? Obviously he can't "JUST COME HOME".
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Another example from history is our own country.
The war to free the colonies from the yoke of imperial England created a "mess" equal to, or greater than, the "mess" that is present day Iraq. For example, in South Carolina, the warring/political factions included two Indian tribes, the SC militia, the Continental Army, the British and their mercenaries, the assistance of the French, the Tories, and tens of thousands of slaves. It was an absolute bloodbath! Neighbor against neighbor, brother against brother, the entire state simply torn apart. And yet, to the surprise of everyone, when the British surrendered peace, real peace, followed very, very quickly. It wasn't perfect but it happened.
I suspect that the same will happen in Iraq.
h-daddy
Just come home
Iraqis haven't had a real shot at running their own country since the British and French drew their borders after the first world war. With all that oil though, no one will let them. Heck, Saddam would never have risen to power without support from the CIA. I'll bet the Iraqis would love to take a crack at it.
AS
Someone who not only studied political science, but got a degree in it, I have to say your friend is full of it. Besides the basal fact that what is being suggested is totalitarian and a rejection of everything that America is supposed to be about, it also makes no sense. The issue is self determination-we violated that by invading Iraq, and continue to do so by determining the government at the barrel of a gun. What happens if we leave? Nothing. The Iraqi government either stands or falls...end of story. The skies will not burn, and an all powerful islamic state will not evolve
It is nice to know how the liberals look at militarism nowadays though....of course there has to be a dictator...people fail otherwise, at least they are starting to be honest about it....bs.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I suspect you might be from under a bridge somewhere.
Mike Stahl
Mike Stahl
OUR Iraqi Parlment isnt supported by the Iraqi people
Paul can and should just bring our troops home. "We just marched in and we can just march out." It is not the tax payers or the individual members of our armed forces fault that a couple of neo-cons hijacked our foriegn policy and decided to go into regime change and nation builidng. Say we are sorry (to Iraq, and the world), and start removing troops. Why should we still be held liable for that mistake?
Here is why Iraq wont be fixed any time soon with our current policy, and why we HAVE TO leave: First of all the leadership is mostly sham politicians installed by our CIA. If it was truely a free election you would see groups like Islamic Jihad, and Al Qaeda winning the popular vote. Why do you think that the government has to be in the Green Zone? Its not just because Al Qaeda wants to kill them, their own people do!
Why would the politicians even want to make any laws to benifit us? They know that as long as the country is in choas that our military, using our tax money, foreign debt, and freshly printed green backs will keep those politicans safe and secure. Our current policy allows them to subsidise their foreign and domestic programs.
Second why are we trying to tell the Iraqi's they must even be a Democracy? It would seem to me that the muslims would probably prefer an islamic theocracy. If it was truely up to them the Kurds would want their own state, but Turky doesnt want that, and since we need Turkey to resupply our troops, we cant support such a plan.
IF we did just leave so what? Let Iraq's people, their neighboors, and the UN deal with it. Their citizens, countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, and the International Peace-Keepers can come in and assist them as needed. They all should certainly have more of an interest in Iraq's future then we do.
Now on a larger scale our worldwide empire, that is our current foriegn policy with our troops placement in Japan, South Korea, Germany, along with other first world countries; allows those country to invest money they would have traditionally needed to spend on defense into social warefare programs for their citizens, and allows them to unfarely compete with US products, as they can subsidse their product or industry costs. On top of this we GIFT countries our military technology. The state department will pledge defense money to our "allies" under the assumption that it will in turn be spend on American Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex weapons.
Also, trust me the Multi-National Corporations are fine wth our current policies. After all the board room executitves have the ability to invest their personal and business war-chests into several markets, so they arent totally dependent on the dollar or the United States. Most of them have no concern with the well being of the average citizen. Plus these companies have employees, operations, and customers worldwide. With the cheaper labor and huge markets like ASIA, EU, and INDIA if the United States goes broke those companies should be able to figure out a way to weather the storm.
Our foriegn policy is completed asinine and outdated. It causes us lots of problems both domestically and abroad. Dr Paul is right to question it, and we should pray that he wins the election so that we can start to make this right.
"IF we did just leave so
"IF we did just leave so what? Let Iraq's people, their neighboors, and the UN deal with it. Their citizens, countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, and the International Peace-Keepers can come in and assist them as needed. They all should certainly have more of an interest in Iraq's future then we do."
Exactly. I totally agree.
Also FYI, al Qaeda won't win any election in the Islamic world (source: http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_01_16/buchanan.html)
Completely Wrong--Just come home
-1,112,745 dead in iraq---comparatively iran/iraq war in 80's 1,000,000 killed
-10,000 suicides
-5,000 dead US soldiers/civilians
-30,000 wounded soldiers
-156,669 VA Disability claims in 2006
-48000 soldiers seeking care for PTSD
-4 million displaced iraqs~16% of the population, 2 million refugees
-Mercenary Soldier killing of civilians
-Rape of 14 year iraq girl and court marshal hearing on US soldiers
--Abu Ghraib
-Torture
-Secret CIA Prisons
-Iraq oil law giving 30 year control of Iraq oil to foreign interests
-500 billion spent on the war, 9 billion magically lost...in iraq effort
-2 billion a day going into the war
-a President shutting down the military in order to keep Iraq going
-China threatening to drop our currency, bankrupting the country. That this war only fuels to speed up. Effectively driving it to an end with our without our decision.
-Nearby pakistan with 10 billion of our money, nuclear weapons, Bin Laden...
and to top it all of the iraq prime minister cant seem to get his govt magically in order or to focus on pushing things. But instead insist if we leave he will talk to their friends in Iran.
Same arguements in Vietnam all over again....they faught for a few years and now trade with us.
The leaders and peoples of those sovereign nations must decide their futures without all of US and a bunch of opportunistic elites trying to rob their country blind with no care for the damages.
We have sacrifice too much and must now clean our own house out!
Same thing happened in India and Pakistan
5 million (!) people died there in the wars after the British pulled out. Obviously there is a religious difference (Hindu/Muslim) but even so there will be mayhem in Iraq whenever we leave. It's awful but there is no good outcome there. I am not an expert and people like Alistair Horne (Algerian historian) opposed going in but now oppose immediate pullout. But it seems it will be a disaster whenever it happens.
The Sunnis might find a leader and the Shiites another leader. I don't think they will be sharing one.
"What does conservatism today stand for? It stands for war. It stands for power. It stands for spying, jailing without trial, torture, counterfeiting without limit, and lying from morning to night."
Lew Rockwell
Support the Troops
This is the way I look at it. If someone thinks we should stay involved with Iraq, I can respect that. Now for my respect I suggest they go ahead and enlist in the military, and you can then volunteer to fight for Iraq's people! I for one dont care to go there, and I am in the reserves. Needless to say I have a little more at stake in this arguement then 99%+ of my fellow citizens. If your not going to put YOUR life on the line to support YOUR failed foreign policy, then please do us all a favor, shut your mouth, and skip voting in the next election while your at it.
There is a reason Dr Paul has the most donations from any canidate from the military. He support their interests. We want to protect this country; not some foreign country, and certainly not some elitist's personal interests. My life, and my fellow members of our armed forces isnt worth dying over some corporation's interests nor the interests of some foreign citizen.
This is natural selection. Just like market economics, or the laws of gravity. These things need to sort themselves out naturally, to stay there is to unnaturally delay the inevitable re-adjustment.
Bravo! Well said.
I like the bumper sticker that says:
Support the troops, bring the rest home alive!
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"But let it not be said we did nothing."
-- Ron Paul
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"The purpose of all political action should be the protection of liberty ."
-- Ron Paul
Right now there is no reason
Right now there is no reason for the different factions of the Iraqi government to come together. They are all just holding out to try to force the other factions to give them a better deal. In the meantime, we are stuck there while they try to work out a solution.
I say we should announce that we are leaving ASAP and force their governmental bodies to make the compromises necessary to end the turmoil. Unless we let them know "we're out of here" they will continue to drag their feet and keep the country in the chaotic state that it is in now while they search to get a better deal for their faction.
We need to get out of the way and force them to work it out.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, 1791
Response from my friend
I told him about the Basra thing, and he said that its the same as with France and Algeria too, but the problems that we have with Iraq are fundamentally different than those of Basra, France and Algeria. (He said he'll give me a more complete answer later, but what do you guys have to say to that?)
Change policy
Statists can always come up with a scenario that justifies our continuing attempts to "control" people. That's why we still have troops in Germany, Japan, Phillipines, Korea etc. We need to get over the idea that the world will dissolve into chaos without our intervention.
It is our intervention that put Iraq into its current state. And our continuing presence will prevent the country from stabilizing. Furthermore, our long-term national security depends on stopping our interventions around the world so we stop creating more enemies.
I have a friend who just can't let go of the idea of world empire. He has bought into the "islamo-fascist" hate propaganda. He believes we have to fight them over there or they will come over here. When I explain to him that it is our intervention in the past that has created the enemies we have today, he says "I don't want to talk about that. I want to know how you are going to solve the problem we have NOW!" I think that is like an alcoholic going to the doctor with liver problems and when the doctor says "you need to stop drinking" the alcoholic says "I didn't come here to talk about the past. I want you to fix my liver!"
Our world empire is going to end one way or the other. Either we make a graceful and principled withdrawal to our own borders while we still have time and resources to dismantle the welfare/warfare state, or we go broke and collapse in disarray. There are no other choices.
Peace
See other examples
- British left Basra and violence dropped 90%.
- The people there are organised in semi-tribal/religious society. Another example may be Somalia - after all the UN/US troops left, the people there organised, they had a kind of organised anarchy there. Not that it was without problems, but the violence dropped and the country prospered (there is even a study from the World Bank that concluded, that they fared better then similar democratic/dictator states around). Recently (~ 2 years ago) army of neighbor states went to Somalia (I think they are even US supported) to reinstate the state and proper government, levy taxes etc. - violence erupted, people are trying to escape the area, martial law appeared, censorship, nationalisation etc. etc.
"just come home" seems to be very sensible. There is no reason why Iraq should have one big leader. The country can split and every part can choose their own leader. He might have meant, that Iraq doesn't have a leader who would be both friendly to the USA and respected by local people.
Ethopia re Somalia
On Somalia, it was Ethopia's military that got involved, with our support. It was sold to the media as a purging of Islamic Radicals, and Al Qaida, from the country, including some of the assholes who were behind the planning of bombing our African Embassies a few decades ago. If memory serves correct the Ethopian military forced them to withdraw to some island and then our Navy bombed the shit out of that island. Our Navy is still actively involved with enforsing anti-pirate activities in their territorial waters.
Oh Yes We Can
Do Iraqis pay taxes? Do Iraqis vote in our members of Congress? How exactly are they going to repay us the hundreds of billions of dollars we have spent on their country already? How are they going to compensate us for all the soldiers we lost over there? We have to help their families now that their fathers/husbands/mothers/wives are dead or disabled you know. Who is going to pay for all this? We are, the taxpayers.
We do not owe the Iraqis anything but an apology. We should bring all our troops home and say, "good luck in your search for an Emir!"
You will say, "but thousands of people will die if we leave!" Maybe, but that is speculation. No one knows for sure what will happen. Maybe people will continue to murder if we stay, also. Iraqis should be free to live their lives as they see fit, just like us. It is not America's place to play Daddy and Mommy to the nation of Iraq.
Why not?
They found their last dictator all on their own, and they will again.
And i fthey have to kill each other to get someone to rise to the top so be it. That is how they have been doing things of thousands of years. They are doing what they have always done, just with us in the way now.
Britain pulled out of Basra... This produced a 90% decline in violence in that region. Bloodbath? I think not.
The Philosophy Of Liberty -
http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PoL.English.The.Philo...