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Do We Have The Courage to Think Outside the Box?

Or are we too emotionally attached to dogmatic beliefs about what government should be?

It's time to explore new avenues. I am sick and tired of coercive government and others believing they have the right to govern me and others without our consent. I am not enamored with the Constitution as others are. Here is a great primer on an alternative to government and it's not what you might think... Let the creative Ideas the DP is famous for flow!

Voluntary cooperation, mutual association!

Positive Anarchy

by Hari Heath

When the word "anarchy" is mentioned, most of us envision mayhem in the streets; societal collapse; roving bands of bikers marauding the citizenry and no government to protect us. We have been conditioned to perceive anarchy this way. Such a scenario is among the definitions of anarchy: "Absence of government; state of society where there is no law or supreme power; lawlessness or political disorder."

Those who hold the reins of political power prefer that we think this way. If we think that the absence of government will result in lawless mayhem, they stay empowered. So the corporate, government, media collective frequently reinforces the programming—life without them would be terrifying.

But like most things in the inverted reality we live in, it’s not exactly true. In fact, we could be doing much better without most of government. There is another side to "anarchy," a positive anarchy which we can explore, but first: Is the present state of "government" a quasi-anarchy?

A contradiction in conduct

The founding of our nation was based on principles that have ceased to be operational. The unalienable rights endowed upon us by our Creator are no longer the concern of government. Neither is establishing justice, insuring domestic tranquility, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, and securing the Blessings of Liberty. This is evidenced by ample examples of governmental conduct, at home and abroad.

Contrasting the contents of government’s operational rule book, the Constitution, with the vast expanse of what pretends to be government, we see mostly lawlessness and political disorder. The present "government" is certainly not without its laws and a political system to create even more laws, but having exceeded their lawful authority, they are, in reality, lawless—a quasi-anarchy.

The hordes of agencies which currently surround us produce swarms of officers, which are sent hither to harass our people and eat out our substance. In many cases, roving bands of marauding bikers would be more welcome. They are at least honest about their intentions. The bikers will eventually move on, but government bureaucrats plan to make looting the public a career—with a retirement plan.

Ultimately, government is a force, emanating from the barrel of a gun. There are less oppressive options commonly used before the guns come out, but when government deems it necessary, the guns will come out. The primary policy of today’s government is to exert coercion and obtain compliance. Consent of the governed?

Consent of the governed

Consent of the governed is alive and well. The problem is how we are governed and what they do to obtain our consent. Most often, we are deemed to have consented when we fail to object to how they govern. When we fill out the form, accept the benefit or otherwise subscribe to their mandates, we have "consented" to be governed.

Like a problem child, government refuses to listen and is constantly seeking the next level of misdeeds that it can get away with. And like a negligent parent, we allow our child to get away with murder—literally.

When will it stop? Does government plan to have less agencies, "laws" or authority? Government is ever-growing and history says it will continue to do so until its oppression foments a revolution and we return to a state of complete anarchy.

Positive anarchy

The first impression in your mind at the mention of "anarchy" is likely to be images of mayhem and violence. There is a positive side to anarchy that our cursory minds probably haven’t considered. Imagine a society, living peacefully, in a voluntary, cooperative association, where each individual is free to pursue his dreams, impeded only by their respectful responsibility towards each other’s pursuits and dreams. Does that fit the programming that your mind associates with "anarchy?"

Those who fear anarchy the most—government and its corporate comrades—and have the most to lose—their livelihoods and all the power they can usurp—have programmed the fear of anarchy in the public’s mind. What are the definitions of the other side of anarchy that governments fear?

Anarchy:

"At its best it pertains to a society made orderly by good manners rather than law."

"A political theory, which would dispense with all laws, founding all authority on the individual conscience."

"A theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principle mode of organized society."

Anarchism:

"The theory that all forms of government interfere unjustly with individual liberty and should be replaced by the voluntary association of cooperative groups."

"Political theory that all forms of government and governmental restraint are morally wrong and must be abolished if absolute individual and social liberty is to be achieved."

"A doctrine urging the abolition of government or governmental restraint as the indispensable condition for full social and political liberty."

Is this the anarchy that we have all come to know and fear? Is there anything wrong with the absence of coercive government, voluntary association of cooperative groups and absolute individual and social liberty? A bit utopian perhaps, but the principles deserve more consideration and, wherever possible, implementation. This is what our "government" fears.

Our nation’s founders envisioned and intended to form a limited government; a near anarchy with minimal coercive powers and a maximum of individual and social liberty. But we have not kept it. Our problem-child government is now getting away with murder and countless other felonies—with all the immunity and impunity that our spoiled brat has come to expect and demand.

Voluntary society

Leaving aside any discussion of how we might properly discipline our problem child and send him back to his room (the Constitution) until he agrees to reform his conduct and abide by the rules of the house (our nation), we have important questions for which we must find answers:

Is American humanity ready for a voluntary society with absolute individual and social liberty? Is our primary fault yielding our personal responsibility and power to government? Would most people be responsible if there were no government to be irresponsible for them? Do Americans have the intellectual gravity, moral foundations and intestinal fortitude to make it on their own—in the absence of coercive government?

There are two anarchies. The question of which one will prevail depends on what kind of people we are and what we will endeavor to become. On the one hand, is the belief correct that human nature at its base level is rapine, murderous and looting? Or, are most people basically decent, and left to their own resources, will they build a better world for themselves, their neighbors and their posterity?

We need not define anarchy—it will define us, by whether we continue with a lawless, coercive government or create a voluntary society of individual and social liberty.

Continued: http://proliberty.com/observer/20060301.htm



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Whether we agree about anarchy

we all can agree we want to live in a freer, peaceful, prosperous, civilized world. When you talk of a world where anarchy prevails, that's comes after step 47898. I'm interested in step 1, step 2, step 3. What are the immediate reforms?
The true "Founders" were not just those who formed a government, but those who fought and died in the Revolutionary War.
If we succeed we must have the support of ordinary Americans, not just intellectuals.

Walking in circles

We have been repeating steps 1 2 and 3 over and over for 30 years and it has gotten us nowhere! I am saying this government is close to collapse, the dollar will collapse, unemployment, home loss, and business closure, will reach critical mass. Production will slow to a trickle, food will become scarce etc. etc.

Can't you see anarchy is where we are headed anyway? However it is a negative anarchy not a positive one. It's the type of anarchy most think of when they hear the word. Many people think all romantically about a revolution for freedom but it will likely just be chaos.

This will be a very dangerous time as this is when might makes right and there will be factions warring for control and who ever has the most resources and weapons etc. will prevail.

But people will tire of chaos and war etc. and perhaps we can broker a peace of sorts and let the factions live as they please and agree not to harm each other. Hence we can learn from the Celts in this manner and agree to certain laws and ways to arbitrate them of someone breaks those laws.

If you can't see we are headed there anyways then I don't know what to tell you. I guess people really don't believe it's all going to collapse. The Government will soon not be able to deliver as Ron Paul said. What do you think will happen then, we'll all live happily ever after?

Folks seem to think I am trying to undermine the movement even though I have been on the front lines for the last couple of years. I am looking at things realistically it is others who are clinging to a corps of a society and a vain hope that we can still save it by working within an already dead corps. We are like maggots living off the corps it can only sustain us a short time longer!

Wake up folks!

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Only dead fish go with the flow...

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You're living in a dreamworld

if you think people using the word "anarchy" are going to convince any significant number of people to join them. The word has gotten a bad press for a long time.
Fortunately the word "freedom" is still popular, and it's what most of the people here are about.

Anarchy won't work.

The majority can't spell it much less understand it.
Esoteric- 1) designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone.
2) requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to small
groups, difficult to understand.
If you wish to influence the masses you must state it in terms they understand and keep it brief. You complain that people haven't read what you say. If so, the fault is yours.
If you're trying to impress the initiated, keep doing what you're doing.
Perhaps in 10000 years the human race (if we survive) might be ready for anarchy, but count me as a skeptic. But even if anarchy is practical, tell us how to get there. What reforms? The world can't be changed in one fell swoop. Only the ideologue believes that.
If we are to move toward a freer world the masses must be brought along by appealing to their self-interest, step by step. Promoting some esoteric system will not get us there.

I don't care about the

I don't care about the masses they can rot for all I care because they are ignorant and uneducated on freedom. It is because of them I must worry about a rogue government that continues to trample my rights.

No on said it can be accomplished in one felled swooop, but why cant it? the Founders were told they didn't have a chance against the worlds most powerful army at the time and even they didn't think they did but they fought on principle I guess they were ideologues...

Why must I worry about everyone else? Why can' I have my liberty and opt out of their system? There is only one reason. What if I and a group of us choose to resist?

The mindset that majority rules is very prevalent but where does it come from and here do they get thier authority? Nowhere!

Did you read the article? It has already happened in human history and lasted 1000 years. http://www.libertarian.ie/historical_cases.html

It is worth studying for at teh very least we can learn something rather then dismiss it out of hand as impossible.

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Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

NOPE

THE PEOPLE HERE ON THIS WEB SITE CANT EVEN DO IT, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE REST OF THE COUNTRY CAN?

B.R.O * M.I.K.E.

9/11 Lessons From Star Trek-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CyjD6Ulf6s&feature=channel_page

'9/11 Conspiracy Theories Ridiculous' - Al Qaeda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0&feature=dir
B.R.O * M.I.K.E.

It doesn't require the rest

It doesn't require the rest of the country. It only requires people to respect the freedom of others. Yes that still makes it difficult with all the little socialist running around many whom think of themselves as freedom lovers, but it's not impossible and we have to start somewhere don't we?

It going to happen anyways when the dollar collapses and the federal government collapses so we might as well beat the rush. A small percentage of folks are already gravitating toward self sufficiency

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Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Anarchy vs. limited government

Dear hawkiye,

you have a lot of company. Many Ron Paul supporters are thoroughly disgusted with government, root and branch! I too am of the opinion that government is a criminal enterprise, working only through force and fraud,pestering, robbing, and intimidating the rest of us!

Unfrotunately, government is still around, as long as the majority of people fail to see worthwhile alternatives. It is up to us to make our contemporaries understand that a stateless society and economy will be vastly better than the politically infested one we have now. Ron Paul, and his support for sound money, non-interventionist foreign policy, and strongest possible local and State safeguards for private property under the Constitution and Bill of Rights are useful, perhaps even indispensible steps to help inform fellow Americans of our ideas. It is still only 95% or so of where you wish to go, but we won't get ANYWHERE unless we start from the beginning! Restore the Constitution, and work from there!

We will still need people like you to help us with the remaining 5%.

PEACE AND FREEDOM!!
David K. Meller

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be attacked successfully, it is to be defended badly". F. Bastiat

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, finally they attack you, and then you win"! Mohandas Gandhi

Why do you assume I am not

Why do you assume I am not working within the system? I do not believe the current system is salvageable, it does not mean I am not trying because I will fight for what ever measure of freedom I can but I truly believe it is all crumbling, and Ron Paul himself has said in his secession video the dollar "WILL" crash and the Federal government will crumble, then we will be faced with a choice. If we are not prepared to make it others will for us and we won't like it.
-----
Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Trite

Very trite.

What a completely useless

What a completely useless and worthless comment. It's amazing on a freedom and libertarian oriented board so many folks can't get past the label or package to the content and in many case even refuse to read the article then comment in their ignorance... sigh!

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Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

A Sane Reminder

With all due respect, I find your entire forum topic to be useless and worthless. Anarchy goes against everything Congressman Paul stands for as well as this site. In case you haven't read the inscription under the title of this website, it says, "Dedicated to restoring Constitutional government to the United States of America". That is far from the anarchical lunacy that you wish to project on the members of this forum. If you wish to "think outside the box", then perhaps you should go to another forum where anarchy is held in high esteem because you won't find that here.

If you think the thread is

If you think the thread is useless then get the hell off it! Why are you reading and commenting? You do not speak for a majority of DP so put a sock in it. You're the exact kind of fascist we are fighting against who think you have the right to tell others what to do when it's none of your damn business... Sigh!

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Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Your Anarchy Ranting Accomplishes Nothing

Your topic is useless for the same reason as if an "atheist" went to a Christian forum and posted a thread encouraging them to become "atheists" like himself. It is simply a waste of time. This site was created to support the views and beliefs of Congressman Paul, insofar as they seek the restoration of a Constitutional republic. Your endless ranting about anarchy does nothing for the cause of liberty, and it only makes us look like a bunch of lunatics. You might as well be preaching totalitarianism because it's just another form of tyranny opposite to anarchy on the spectrum of civics. If you wouldn't post so many topics promoting the stupid philosophy of anarchy then I wouldn't be compelled to respond in your threads with reason and truth. So, if you wish to be rid of dissenters such as myself, then stop preaching your foolishness on a website that does not endorse anarchy at all.

Just STFU, you are useless!

Just STFU, you are useless! What did you do for Dr Paul? Donate 10 or 20 bucks in a money bomb and mark a ballot? Some of us actually worked on his campaign day and night and went broke doing it so haul your arrogant ass out of here you stupid moron!

Anarchy is coming whether you like it or not and idiot automatons like you will be swept aside by it!

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Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

I Will Take It As Far As I Can

First of all, you don't know what I've done for Dr. Paul's campaign, so I suggest you refrain from any more comments about what you think my contributions have been. Only fools speak boldly without knowledge.

Second of all, anarchy will never come to this country, if I have anything to do about it. I will fight hard, even to death, to ensure the tyranny of anarchy never approaches these shores. I gave my life for my country once, and I am willing to do it again, even against the corrupt actions of ignorant people like yourself who wish to destroy any vestige of civility in our society. Do not test me.

My word! Someone who gave his life for his country and is still

alive to tell about it; now that is some miracle. Virtually all of the other people who gave their lives for their country (otherwise known as being cannon fodder, often unwilling) ended up in graves, or in little bitty pieces.

Boy, I have some real trouble understanding what people are saying when they throw around words like they knew what they meant. Tyranny is the opposite of anarchy, so how can you have the "tyranny of anarchy"?

Anarchy is the absence of government (total freedom) and tyranny is oppressive government (compete subjugation). If you have no government (anarchy), how can you have tyranny (oppressive government)? I guess anyone who gave his life for his country and is still alive can believe that a tyrannical government can exist when no government exists.

hawkiye, I think you are fighting a losing battle discussing freedom with people who are frightened of it, and accept the dictum that government must rule our lives. You do have fellow anarchists out there, but there are far more who don't understand the market for liberty and just want reduced government, and even more out there who applaud the expansion of government. Less government would be better, but much, much less government would be even better. We who see the possibility for a truly free society are just a tiny, tiny fraction of the population, and so are the "lets have Constitutional government" crowd, for that matter.

I am old and jaded; I do not believe that government is just going to one day roll over and get out of the way, and certainly do not believe that we are going to move back toward freedom from peaceful political action as promoted by Dr. Paul. I do think that violence is ahead, but the time is not quite ripe. Maybe another decade. There is no need to plan for violence because it will be spontaneous and will be driven by economic conditions.

We are all victims of the time of our births. You young fellows and girls indeed managed to make your arrival here on earth at a very inopportune time.

"Bend over and grab your ankles" should be etched in stone at the entrance to every government building and every government office.

Self governance, not anarchy

Why are those of us who wish to try it not at liberty to do so? What are you fighting for, liberty for YOU, or for all of us?

Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.

Self-Governance Without Anarchy

You're making the false assumption that one cannot be self-governed under a constitutional form of government. Of course we can be self-governed and have a system of civil government which protects our God-given rights. We did it for decades. The problem is not the system, but the people who are active in the system. Our Founders understood that civil servants must themselves be men of moral integrity and religious character if our republic is to continue in success. As John Adams once said,

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Anarchy does not result in self-governance, for it only leaves society wide open for the strongest to take over people due to their unbridled lusts. There is no rule of law nor is there an objective system of justice to punish the wicked and enforce contracts (among other things). Anarchy, as a system of civic living, simply does not equate with liberty in any way, shape, or form.

If you wish to "try" anarchy, then you have the liberty of moving to another place, such as Somalia. But do not try to force your foreign beliefs upon those of us who are working to restore our republic. We fight for the principles which made it possible for liberty to co-exist between a government and its people. If you don't like it, then you have the freedom to do so, but keep in mind that this website will always be "dedicated to restoring Constitutional government to the United States of America". It is the anarchists who are out of the mainstream of liberty, not me.

Who the hell do you think

Who the hell do you think you are? You are speaking to two people who have been on this board nearly since its inception. No one is trying to force anyone to do anything, how we live and promote liberty is none of your damn business, if you don't like it you are free to ignore it but you have no right to tell us not to speak of it, or move from our home country. We will do it right here in our land if we so choose! This is my home and I will live free and do as I please whether you like it or not!

And you have no clue what you are talking about there is no evidence anarchy does what you claim the ancient Celts had a positive system of anarchy the lasted 1000 years. Republic always seem to end up in dictatorship like Rome and Wiemar Republic of Germany etc. and now ours. Learn some history instead of spouting emotional beliefs and religious dogma with no facts or evidence to support it.

http://www.libertarian.ie/historical_cases.html

You obviously don't know the first thing about freedom which requires personal responsibility. You and only you are responsible for reading this thread no one forced you and if you don't like it you are free to take responsibility for what you read and choose not to read or respond. You are not free to tell me or others what we may post or not post or to leave our country if you don't like that well you are free to discover what you can do with that opinion!

-----
Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Who Am I?

I am a supporter of Congressman Ron Paul, and I unashamedly share his views that we need a limited government (not anarchy) in order to preserve life, liberty, and property. You, on the other hand, do not share that view, so the question remains, who do you think you are to undermine the beliefs of the man whom this forum bears in name, O anarchist?

Gimme a break.

Would you people prefer we just wait for Dr Paul to start threads for us to discuss? Or should we only discuss things Ron Paul says and does? Shall I start a "Should We Tax Twinkies?" discussion?

We Should Be Germane With Room For Dissent

I'm not saying that we have to only discuss what Congressman Paul believes. My point to hawkiye is that he makes it seem like I'm outside the mainstream of liberty for criticizing his anarchical views when actually my beliefs are far more in line with Dr. Paul's than his. Hawkiye is on a website where its main tagline is "dedicated to restoring Constitutional government to the United States of America," yet, he feels threatened when one of us challenges his views of anarchy. He is not above reproach, and really, his views of anarchy are so impossible and immature to achieve that it's a shame that he has the courage to post them on this forum. "Should We Tax Twinkies" would be a much better discussion than the anarchy lunacy which hawkiye continually spews in this forum.

Pithy

Very Pithy.

Did you have to think ...

long ...

................ hard ...

deep?

Are you saying that with a lisp?

It sounds better with a lisp.

Isth Tthhisss ...

... what deep Tthhinkersss were Tthhinking ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8fTk0-2yPY&feature=PlayList&...

;-)

wow you did it

LOL that was good

Tthhanksth ... Tthheonomically Thspeaking …

… I guessth tthhe core of my point would be we should perhaps have tthhe backbone to only Tthhink in tthhe box witthh tthhe restht of tthhoft and tthhpungy middle …

… or Justh Tthhut Up !

But, that would be:

Trite.

;-)

Great overview of of the

Great overview of of the Celtic anarchist system of law.

For a thousand years, then, ancient Celtic Ireland had no State or anything like it... 'There was no legislature, no bailiffs, no police, no public enforcement of justiceÉ. There was no trace of State-administered justice.'

É the professional jurists were consulted by parties to disputes for advice as to what the law was in particular cases, and these same men often acted as arbitrators between suitors. They remained at all times private persons, not public officials; their functioning depended upon their knowledge of the law and the integrity of their judicial reputations.

Great read!

http://www.libertarian.ie/historical_cases.html

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Get Prepared!
Only dead fish go with the flow...

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

The unfortunate thing about

The unfortunate thing about anarchy is it always results in an oligarchy (tyranny). It is as utopian as socialism.

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Restore State Sovereignty

http://www.meetup.com/The-National-17th-Amendment-Group/