Okay DPers, What is the liberty solution to Health Care Issues in America?
I've been reading about Obama's government funded and run universal health care and am more then skeptical, but what is the answer?
I went to the ER last summer and my bill was $21,450 if I didn't have insurance. My insurance paid out around $8000 plus my $100 co-pay. I have a real issue with insurance companies. Does anyone really expect a company who's sole purpose is to report profits to its shareholders have the best interest of the patient in mind? What do we have this middle man? Is it truly needed? Maybe for catastrophic injuries, but every time I get a sinus infection? I don't know the answer.
I would love to hear some opinions on this. The only thing I know I'm not for is the federal government making my medical choices.
Peace...
my 2 cent's
I do not think heathcare is a natural right. my reasoning is that it involves another mans labor, which I am not entitled to.
I view both doctors and nurses as technicians. [who know less about what they work on than I do!][god bless them!]
my wages and demand factor have been going up for years. I think that what we need are more skilled tech's [doctors and nurses] and less people in the middle.
Hospitals will always be a problem, as they are full of sick people who are not at the top of thier earning curve. I think churches and apportioned taxes could solve this. as they did in the past.
I am thinking there IS a proper amount of "socialism" that is both necessary and proper. my sense is that it needs to be both voluntary and apportioned.
as per our founders.
Ken
" the important thing is to never stop questioning, curiousity, has it's own reason for existing..
Albert Einstien
Knowledge is power, action is love.
We have a socialist economic system
so prices in the private sector will continue to rise and government solutions will continue to be forced on us. Increasing interstate competition would lower prices but we are in a difficult spot because so many are completely commited to increasing inflation and government programs. As mises said "Inflationism, however, is not an isolated phenomenon. It is only one piece in the total framework of politico-economic and socio-philosophical ideas of our time. Just as the sound money policy of gold standard advocates went hand in hand with liberalism, free trade, capitalism and peace, so is inflationism part and parcel of imperialism, militarism, protectionism, statism and socialism."
"Government spending cannot create additional jobs. If the government provides the funds required by taxing the citizens or by borrowing from the public, it abolishes on the one hand as many jobs as it creates on the other.", www.mises.org
"Endless money forms the sinews of war." - Cicero, www.freedomshift.blogspot.com
Un-Scientific Poll
... not a real poll, but I've been talking to a few blacks at my health club about politics, they really think Obama's the man ! I'm sure not all feel that way, but so far you couldn't prove it by me. Some of my white acquaintances that don't have anything feel health care is a good idea too. I suppose I would like someone else pick up my health care cost if I didn't take care of business and did not have any, this is America isn't it ?
Dr.'s will deal & haggle
I don't know about hospitalization, but if you have a nice Doctor, s/he will most likely make a deal with you. I've haggled with a few Dr.'s and they almost always will come down in price of tests & service if you ask & explain nicely. Especially if you agree to pay up front.
Of course Barry's health plan will f*ck that up for everyone...
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
Sen. DeMint's bill S2477 for interstate competition
S.2477
Title: A bill to amend the Public Health Service Act to provide for cooperative governing of individual health insurance coverage offered in interstate commerce.
Sponsor: Sen DeMint, Jim [SC] (introduced 12/13/2007) Cosponsors (8)
Related Bills: H.R.4460
Latest Major Action: 12/13/2007 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
see summary of bill and his video here:
http://demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Sponsor...
R3VOLution
In reference to your sinus infection
... and government health care. 2006 I traveled to Beijing, China as I was coming down with a sinus infection. After a week there I was in Japan 3 weeks, and treated by a young rural Japanese doctor that was worried I had pneumonia and kept checking how I felt (better). When I got back home to Chicago still not completely well I went to the VA. I couldn't see my regular doctor there twice and given interns from the medical teaching hospital next door and diagnoses from getting over a viral infection to positional vertigo all which should clear up on their own. Then it felt like my head was going to explode and I called to see a doctor again. They couldn't get a doctor that day to see me, but a practicing nurse instead. She correctly diagnosed an ongoing sinus infection, and wanted a cat-scan. I said, to myself I'm going to get another opinion, and went to my private doctor something I should of done in the first place. He recommended the cat-scan too and gave me some expensive Allegra D 3 samples that relieved the sinus pain immediately. I had the VA send the cat-scan to my private doctor who ordered anti-biotic saying I was 100 % blocked-up in my sinuses. The next day my VA doctor called and said she ordered a nasal spray and Claritin allergy tablets (next to worthless , and put me in for an appointment with the VA ENT specialist who I called and said it would be almost two weeks to see. I was pretty much well recovered from my private doctors prescription by the time I got to see the VA ENT teaching hospital intern, who did a thorough examination even though it looked like he had not slept for days. He prescribed a sister anti-biotic to my private doctors for another week along with steroids. He wasn't sure what size steroids the VA was dispensing and in the confusion I was given double the amount I should be taking per dosage. I called the Chicago VA for clarification how much I was to take and they transferred my call to Milwaukee, WI VA as it was Saturday. Finally they said take only half of the dosage. Lucky I was 63 and not 73 I would of probably overdosed. Government health care.
I have more VA government health story's similar to this if anyone is interested. You can really get lost in the bureaucratic shuffle there. Take an advocate if you are not up to speed to navigate through the government bureaucracy..
The answer is
simple: "Fee for Service" just like anything else.
Get rid of government. Get rid of insurance companies. Get rid of the ambulance-chasing attornies. Get rid of HMO's. Get rid of any third party to the transaction. They only make things cost more.
Patient> Doctor. Service> Cash.
Handling the "big stuff" provides a useful incentive for people to make friends, take care of family and participate in one's community. If we want government out of our lives, we've gotta start taking care of ourselves and the people around us.
1) Sound Money 2) Get the
1) Sound Money
2) Get the government out of health care
1 might take care of 2.
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"...we are face to face with the problem whether ours is a government under a written constitution and the laws made pursuant thereto, or whether it is a government by ambitious and usurping men.'" -- F.Pierce
"A government of reason is better than one of force." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1820
That's true. At the core of all issues is fraudulent money.
Because the core of any society is trade.
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
Okay Im going to give you a natural remedy
Bee hive honey that is supplied as close as possible to where you live also raw goat milk also grown as close as possible to where you live these are the two most healthy and preventative measures you can take too keep from getting sick.
A Free Market
Government creates a problem to solve a problem.
In a free market competition drives prices down and quality up.
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
We can only have excellent health care
if all healing modalities are allowed to freely compete. Alternative and natural strategies are disallowed by government-approved care and insurance, so duped citizens are funneled into a narrow segment of health approaches which favor heavy industrialized (think radiation) or chemical (think chemo) solutions.
In the opinions of many these are the worst solutions; in fact people who accept officially approved care are the very people who get sicker year after year with chronic illness that isn't eradicated but merely treated and allowed to steadily worsen.
Diabetes is a shining example. Under standard treatment it's incurable, just get worse and worse until people die of complications.
There are natural approaches which actually address the underlying causes and remove them by coaching lifestyle changes and using nutritional and other supplemental support.
When you look at all the failing government programs, you can't simply replace the same programs with private firms. You need to really look at the distortions caused by the use of force that has outlawed free-thinking and creative approaches that would often look NOTHING like the current controlled models.
Great points!
Free market solutions, stop funding big Pharma is the way to go.
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We are whipping folks back into shape, we are going to get this done!" --
Barack Obama , quoted by politico.com, concerning Blue Dog Democrat opposition to the Healthscare bill.
The most terrifying words in the English language are: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help!"-- Ronald Reagan
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
Question: Is Healthcare a right or is it a privilege?
If it is a right, whether or not one has the means to pays for it, then the rest of us should pay for those who cannot.
"From those according to their abilities, to those according to their needs."
Right or Privilege
The answer to this is easy when you truly understand rights and privileges. Rights are defined as ownership. In other words, if you own it, you have the right to use it as you see fit, as long as you do no harm to others. A privilege is the opportunity to use something someone else owns, on his terms.
So, if you are a doctor, then you have the medical knowledge. You own the skills and knowledge. So you can use that knowledge for your own benefit all day and all night. You give your patients the privilege of making use of your skills and knowledge if they are willing to pay a fee.
No one has a right to medical care, housing, food, clothes, or any other "thing" that they do not personally own already.
Medical costs would plummet if people only went to doctors for serious problems AND if people could pay doctors directly instead of having government dictated HMOs and the like. In other words, if people took their personal health and wellness seriously and actually made a serious effort to take care of themselves using the latest knowledge and best dietary understanding they can find, medical services would greatly decline in cost becaus the demand would be decreased. And getting government out of the way ALWAYS results in lower costs!
KenM
This is a great question and I can see both sides on this
This is probably a whole other thread of discussion. Ron Paul said it is a good or commodity and not a right. I tend to agree although there are some people who no matter what will not have money or the means to pay for health care and the question is what do we do with them. Charities? If the government is going to get involved in health care at all they could offer doctors tax breaks for charity pro bono work? I don't know the answer. One thing I know is the insurance companies need to go except in case of catastrophic care. I like the car insurance analogy. Anyway, this is a great question Steve.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
want_my: And your answer is also great
The actual number of uninsured is much lower than the estimated 50M, when you subtract foreigners, and younger people who pay out of pocket when they need to be treated, and save the cost of insurance to spend on other things. The charity issue is an interesting one to consider, but the legal issues involved are formidable. Treat someone for free and write it off as a charitable contribution would be great, but potential lawsuits would be also. The standard of care would have to be maintained whether or not the care was provided without charge. Then, who actually gets the write off?...the hospital, clinic, or practice, rather than the actual doctor, who would always be liable for the care provided. If the doctor, did not get the tax write off, then they would not agree, since they are paid by production/patient numbers. Time is money in medicine.
Very complex answers to a seemingly simple question that I asked.
Steve, this is your idea, you should post this as a topic,
of discussion. It is a complicated answer and I'm sure there are some great minds on the site who could offer quite a bit to the topic.
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
eat right and exercise
Back in the days when people were truly free (circa 20,000 BC), health care was all natural, the way it still is for coyotes and antelopes.
Freedom isn't free. If you'd like to be free from all the government/corporate health care bullshit, just be willing to live a natural life and die a natural death. That's the price of freedom.
If you're addicted to government and corporations, then there is a price to pay for that, too.
Healthcare is an individual
Healthcare is an individual choice, unless destitute . Let me take care of my healthcare.. If there are welfare cases that cannot afford it provide them with a temperary fix..Don't try to Bail yourselves out after spending all that money I already entrusted to Congress over my lifetime..It is not my fault you did not listen to reason years ago when you went LIBERAL.
Besides what you are proposing now is NOT insurance ,it is a coop I want nothing to do with ..Thanks let me out.
naughty, naught
Don't tie health care to employment.
Don't tax individual health insurance plans (you know, like it used to be before the government involved themselves and f*cked everything into a cocked hat) and don't utilize 'health insurance' as a means to pay for routine care.
Lets start with something simple and move on from there.
I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...
I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...
Expose the owners of the federal reserve
It is their health care system...they invented it to control us...why debate details?
They want us to fight over the details...why do what they want us to do?
Have you seen Money Masters?
These emotional debates are how they keep us from exposing them and ending their rule.
You don't know this?
Unify
Get rid of ALL current insurance companies,
because if they are doing business under the current legal guidelines, they are probably corrupt. Start over from scratch with mostly catastrophic coverage and coverage for a more holistic approach to preventative maintenance. As for those who choose to remain with big pharma, keep the $4.00 prescriptions at participating stores, for freedom of choice. The bottom line, though, is that we all have our own thoughts on the subject and most of us agree that the current insurance companies are corrupt.. so what are we going to DO about it? Talk is cheap and time's a wastin... the government wants to save us!
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It is good and proper to respect the U.S. flag, perpetuated with the blood of American heroes. It is a fatal mistake not to recognize those who wrap themselves in the same flag to cover up their crimes against the American people.
~ Sherman H. Skolnick
. @ @ . Power to the People!
@ O @ -----> PEOPLE
. @ @ . NOT Corporate Entities!
I would first disallow any government involvement.
I would then establish groups of people who wish to join into a plan much like a credit union. (without the government controls). I would suggest "free markets" but, too many insurance companies collude to "price fix."
Just my opinion
In my opinion, the whole debate needs to start with the modern theories and definitions of "health care." One must remember that doctors do not heal people. People's bodies heal themselves. Thus, doctors are most needed for emergencies, primarily to halt catastrophic occurrences as, for example, when someone is in an accident and is losing a lot of blood because of injuries or in the case of heart attacks or stroke to act quickly to hopefully minimize or stop damage.
Virtually all other "health care" that we think of is some kind of patch or attempt to minimize symptoms rather than heal anyone. For example, chemotherapy and radiation treatments are, basically, high-powered "anitibiotics." They don't cure someone of cancer, they simply attempt to kill cancer that is there in the same way that a doctor will prescribe simple antibiotics if you go to him because of relatively minor fevers or influenza or colds. The doctor is not curing you, he is treating symptoms. Cancer growth is a symptom of a body that has lost or does not have the ability to prevent the growth of these foreign bodies. Only the human body itself cures when it heals a skin cut (surface injury) or eliminates the possibility of viruses or cancers growing (internal injury). If the body itself does not overcome these invasions, cancer or other illnesses will simply return. Sometimes, in fact, chemotherapy and radiation so weaken a body that it has no hope of recovering by itself and the person is lost.
Thus, real health care is exactly what the words say - cariing for one's health. I think much of the current debate would be perceived radically different if it was called by its real name - "Treating the symptoms of illness," or more to the point, "treating people who took less care for their health."
One has health care when he is mindful of his health and researches and studies how to best maintain health and vitality. This is similar to us studying Austrian economics to understand how best to maintain a healthy economy. We care for health by, literally, caring for our health, not by going to doctors to get treatment of symptoms once we have become sick.
Thus, it is wise to have private companies selling insurance to people for catastrophic accidents or illness. It is wise to have insurance companies screening customers to see if they are already healthy and taking good care of their health. It is wise for insurance companies to charge more for people exhibiting behavior and attitudes which are not health supporting. And it would be wise for insurance companies to offer incentives (much lower rates) for people who follow well-documented health preservation techniques regularly in their lives.
As usual, when government gets involved in private business like the medical field, costs always skyrocket. By far the single best way to decrease "health care" cost is to remove government from it, since, as usual, there is no authorization for their involvement in our Constitution.
And, if people could be convinced to look at health care as being "when you care for your health," many of the tort reform issues related to the medical field would also begin to lessen, since people would have to again realize that, overall, health is THEIR responsibility and the doctor can only work with what he was given - a sick person.
As with everything, health care starts with the individual, not with doctors, insurance companies, or government.
KenM
Long, but good
That was a little long, but you made some good points. Car Ins is run by and offered by for profit companies. Car ins rates have grown slower than the rate inflation. People pay for Car ins out of pocket, it is not connected to your job. When you get an oil change, ins doesn't pay for it. Why can't health ins be similar? Coverage should only be for catastrophic events, unless you pay for more coverage.
www.allenskillicorn.com
www.allenskillicorn.com
Remember that the HMO problem BEGAN with our gov't
And HMO's have driven the costs up sky-high for the non-insured.
It amounts to extortion. Get the gov't completely out of healthcare.
Michael Moore's SICKO. Socialized Health Care vs America's syst
I must say this movie was very enlightening. Here is the link to watch the whole movie for free-
http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=133
Definately worth the watch. I originally was not in favor of Universal Health Care, but after watching this, I am now. However, I don't think our corrupt over ballooned US Government would stand a chance in hell of pulling it off.
It made me really think about what the future holds for me as I get older, possibly can't work, lose my fortune, etc... If 5 people were were stranded on an island and all 5 had a special skill that insured survival for all, would all 5 work in harmony to co-exist and survive?
I definately don't be in Socialism, but if all we have is our health, why wouldn't we make this a priority to perfect a health care system for all.
That being said, we still kill people is unneccessary wars. Until we stand up and say NO MORE, a true coalition of man to preserve himself will never exist.
Anyway, movie is a good watch.
But the current plan discriminates against alternative
and preventive measures by failing to pay for them. So our choices will dwindle and we'll be pigeon-holed into using less effective, more invasive treatments. Our freedom shrinks.
Frankly, I don't know why you want to give our corrupt and stupid government any more power. They mess up everything.
I never said I wanted to give our government more power
"OUR" Government is F'ed up. We need a new one. The Constitution is not a stone tablet with no room for additions, it's a just the best rule book for controlling government. But if there is one thing we all have in common, it's life. Proper medical care insures a well lived life.
If our goverment was kept in check, we had no income tax, infaltion, no wastefull spending,etc... We would all be able to afford a universal/sicial plan.
Please dont think I am liberal left, no where close! It's just this issue that has changed me. I love solar/renewable green energy and technologies, but i hate the fact there our government incentives for them.
Not sure if you have watched the movie or not, but please do if you havent.