rhino: Message to 9/11 speculators
Here is the post that I posted on Devon's site that got me labeled as a fence sitter and an enemy to the "truth" movement.
For those that do not know who I am, I am a regular at dailypaul and a somewhat regular critic of the 9/11 inside job irrationalists. For those that are more interested in who I am, you can go there and track me, find the post, “Judgement day. By Rhino”, and there you will find every title post I have made. Granted this does not cite every link where I have commented, but you can at least draw the cover of the book.
My pet peeve is not with the truthers and conspiracy buffs per se, but it is with what they call truth and what they fail to call speculation. I know that Devon will disagree with this, but truth is not relative and it has a definition. I prescribe to a definition of truth to which an objectivist would prescribe. If you wish to research what an objectivist is, read Rand, Paul, or most other libertarian scholars. Despite its collectivist thought, the MSM also regards truth similarly. This is very important if we wish to infiltrate, flank, or simply take head on the daily head pounding that we all get from the MSM. Being also a realist, I realize that if we want to spread the message of freedom, the easiest path is to overlay the existing path. To take what has already been defined in society and simply offer a better solution. It just so happens that with regards to truth, the easiest path and the right path cross in my opinion.
All your theories about 9/11 may be true, but they also may not be true. We do not know and we may never know. But to state what you believe as truth and fact is simply false and will get you labeled as a kook. The message should be to demand for transparency, to demand clarity, to demand independent investigations, to release all information, to elect a president that we can all believe will release all the information. At that point the chips will fall where they fall. Granted, it is too late to reach a consensus, much less a unanimous verdict, but at least the families of the 9/11 victims and the families of the dead soldiers can have closure and we may be able to find some facts and truths that are still out there waiting to be found. If one of those facts and truths is that it turns out to have been an inside job then so be it, but do not get your hopes up, this probably will not be discovered. Not because it is deeply buried, but because it probably is not true.
There is merit in being an advocate, but there is no merit in labeling speculations as truth. Even Mr. Cage, a reputable advocate on your side, in the BBC documentary states clearly when he is speculating.
A youtube video is not evidence and never will be evidence of truth and fact, but, by all means, post away. You will be judged by your posts, and your titles, and your content, so be clear about what you are saying and writing.
I sometimes finish my posts with a saying, “The message is freedom, not power.” To place blame is to send a message about power. To ask for answers is to send a message for freedom.
I almost always end my posts with WAHOR!!! Track me, go to the Judgement day post and click on the We All Have Our Roles post and you will see what it means.
I wish nothing but peace and happiness for all of you, even Oruval, and I think deep down he knows this.
If some day, the battle field calls, I will be at your side and I will be willing to die for each and every one of you in hopes that my death will help the ones I save to carry the message of freedom. This is the ultimate life lesson for my three children. They will never forget who I was and for what I sacrificed my life.
I do not wish to end on a sad note, because I am truly an optimist. We have momentum in our favor and I truly believe that our real manifest destiny is freedom through a peaceful revolution. Not we, the former colonists, but we the human race.
Whether you like it or not, I am going to pray for all of you tonight.
WAHOR!!
The Thermite...
WAS the termite!
"He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day"
some viking
Truth
I am confused because an objectivist thinks that there is a truth out there, that an "A is an A."
I reject that concept which frees me to entertain the evidence that other people's "truths" may be inaccurate based on what I have experienced.
With 911, I definitely think that the "official truth" adopted by our government and the MSM unfortunately remains the least persuasive estimation of a potential truth.
I don't want this to be the case...but based on my interactions with the bit of the universe which I have experienced...This is the case.
If you insist,
as a foundational premise, that nothing is knowable, and that the connections that forge a conspiracy, no matter how well-established those connections are, are not valid, then you have fully insulated yourself against knowing the truth.
That doesn't mean others haven't got access to it. Because, in this case, seek and ye shall find.
If you insist that even certain facts about 9/11, which are as transparent as can possibly be, are not "transparent," because they incriminate the government, then you don't know what transparent means and should look it up.
If you insist on preaching instead of researching, you may, in a moment of clarity somewhere down the road, regret that you acted high-and-mighty, when really, you were just plain lazy all along. You don't know because you haven't studied. You haven't pulled your weight. You haven't earned this place at the pulpit.
It's not the fact that you are a fence-sitter that's so odious, it's that you seem to be so adamantly pro-ignorance, and you use all this flowery language to try and justify a morally and intellectually vapid position.
Dude... thanks for this
Dude... thanks for this post. You saved me the trouble of typing.
As for "rhino".... your proctologist called. They found your head.
Get bent, you self righteous, pedantic, pontificating a-hole. We've been hearing your vapid musings for far too long. You try to adopt this neutrual, objective, harmless stance, but you are transparent. We are a pretty smart bunch here. You might have better luck on an blog website which supports obama.
Doc Holladay
Nashville, TN
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Truth is treason in an empire of lies.
More from David Griffin on WTC7
Here's a nice review of his book on WTC7.
http://911blogger.com/node/21259
Here's an extract. The review goes chapter by chapter:
"In Chapter 5, “NIST’s Ignoring of Testimonial Evidence for Explosives,” Griffin first reviews NIST’s prior ignoring of testimonial evidence for explosions in the Twin Towers before their disintegration. He then presents in detail a wide array of testimonial evidence supporting the most-likely hypothesis, implosion. These testimonies came from credible witnesses, including a New York Daily News reporter and a New York Police Department officer located outside the building before it came down, who heard explosions inside it; detailed accounts from two high-level NYC employees, Barry Jennings and Michael Hess, of their experiences inside the building that morning, where they heard and felt large explosions before the Twin Towers had collapsed; testimonies, again from highly credible witnesses, to foreknowledge of the building’s collapse; premature television reports that the building had come down, before it had actually collapsed; and even witnesses to Fire Department of New York personnel announcing that the building was going to be “brought down.” Griffin shows that NIST either ignored this evidence or went to great lengths to distort it by constructing an elaborate false chronology of the testimonial evidence which it could not simply ignore."
@Treg: Thanks for your helpful post. Each time you post, I donate another $20 to Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. http://www.ae911truth.org. So have at it.
Justin Riamondo over Antiwar dot com has a great angle on this
He points out a key action taken by Glenn Beck...
Truther nutjobs HELP the Official Story by stopping any investigation into who assisted the 19 hijackers...
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/09/10/911-our-truth-...
In peace & liberty
Treg
GO AWAY
GO AWAY
Go away...
I'm gonna puke...
Yada Yada Yada
Syntax.
The BOTTOM line is..........the OFFICIAL STORY is a LIE.
baubaublacksheep
8 years of debate has achieved NOTHING
9/11 debate = nothing = anger = frustration
What if the above equation is the goal?
No, not THE goal...."what if" it is the goal?
I suggest that the 9/11 debate is fully managed and that is the reason for the above equation = mission accomplished.
Why are we discussing ONE day of the rule of the men in power?
The fed is privately owned...the crime of the century....the crime of the fed continues each second of every day since 1914.
In plain site...a lie of immeasurable proportions and we have dedicated this thread to a fight over ONE day. One of them...just one.
Is this what God wants?
God is within your heart.
Is God calling on us to fight about details while evil kills our children?
I don't pretend to know the answer to this question...I do know this.
The above question is more important than the subject of this thread.
Unify
This thread was not resurrected for constructive discussion.
It, along with some of Rhino's other threads, were revived below by people who wish to taunt him.
As to what you keep saying about 9/11 being just one day...
9/11 was not just one day. Lives and liberties were lost and CONTINUE to be lost as a result of what happened that day.
I'm not a truther ..however,
I'm not a truther ..however, I note to myself ; Planes flew into the trade center buildings weakening a side or two ..the buildings collapsed straight down ..Physics would deligate that the buildings would be weak towards one side & fall accordingly ..these buildings fell with the least amount of ground damage possible in this man's world ..Coincidence ? I don't know for a fact ,but highly suspect . Period ...Flight 93 crashes , totally discintigrated to nothing ..An explosion such of this magnitude, to discintigrate totally all evidence, would require a blast field several miles in size & the fuel dissipation would have been so hot that the forest & the respective building around the scene would have been singed way beyond the minimal debris field shown.. Coincidence? Could be, but physics denies it...I use my own head & go on ..There is bigger fish to fry at this point..I'll still honor the victims no matter who perpitrated the cowardly act..The rain falls on the Just & the Unjust , God is gracious & patient ..HE will sort out the cowards accordingly.
We are in a battle, and need to do battle by not concentrating on what we left behind but keep focused on the prize that lays ahead.. Pressing towards the goal which the perps want us to not concentrate on.
Good people do Good deeds
and are no respecter of person
911 was an inside job
Anyone who starts their thread with their handle is an egomaniac. JMHO.
911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB. Period. End of story. Next.
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." ~ Albert Einstein
lol... well one good thing
lol... well one good thing about him starting his threads with his handle, is that I know before hand not to waste my time....
A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. Proverbs 22:3
A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. Proverbs 22:3
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to
send peace on earth: I came not to send peace,
but a sword.
Switch.
It's an inside joke. Thanks stickles.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
I miss...
the switch avatar.
Good times indeed!
What Rhino forgot to post was the 3-week, 800 post chat we had after, where we had to discuss everything from exploding styrofoam to how hot a computer monitor burns to finally get to the point where he admits that the pancake theory is just good math.
We stopped the thread at that point because there was no point going any further.
~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~
Rhino You Dont Have The Guts To Admit You Are Wrong Is The
problem... not in light of all the recent revelations and thermate evidence...
By the way hows that exploding concrete theory coming along?
.
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Support WTP Federal Supreme Court Case To Ban All Electronic Voting Or Forget 2010 or 2012
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rhino...got no problems with what you choose to believe
If you want to be a denier and stick your head in the sand that is fine with everyone here in the individual liberty movement. I don't care what anyone else believes about 911 either. Not you or Alex Jones.
The only thing that drives me nuts about the whole mess is why all the fuss? Why do you care what the troofers say so much? I could give a rats ass what you think about me or what I see is clearly fact. Why would I waste my time arguing the finer points of something that happened 8 years ago? Its obvious your brain doesn't follow facts and search for logically reasoned explanations about why the pieces all don't quite fit together.
What drives me nuts is when you people come around trying to moderate what I say. That I will take the time to sit down and draw you a diagram for even if your brain is incapable of reason (which I find very hard to believe). I would do my best to educate you only if you suggested troofers aren't welcome in the individual liberty movement because it would give me a chance to demonstrate to the rest of the folks on here that collectivist authoritarians are the ones they should be cautious of. For they are not true to the cause of individual liberty and must not be trusted due to their incoherent understanding of Dr. Paul's message or the very definition of individual liberty.
Freedom of speech can be uncomfortable sometimes, but it causes no harm to any bystander.
9-11
I look at the history practically.
The World Trade Centers collopsed.The United States invaded Afghanistan and Iraq using 9-11 as a propaganda tool to initiate the conflicts.
That is fact. I do not know who committed the crime.
I do know Bin Laden denied involvement initially,
I do know that the US government accused his organization of being the source of the attack.
I figure the truth is somewhere in the middle. America was attacked. The richer nations of the world joined hands to invade Afghanistan to once again "make the world safe for democracy".
Was the Government negligent? Did the government corroborate with the attacks? I doubt it, but I do not know it.
I remember the Government saying these attacks required massive amounts of funding, training, etc.
I thought, hmmm....no...a practical and frugal group of people could easily cause 9-11 to occur as described by the government within a limited budget. Thus I do believe that there is evidence that the attack was more sophisticated then the government was willing to reveal.
Does the evidence point to a culprit other than Osama Bin Laden or definitively to Osama Bin Laden? I do not know, but I doubt it either way. America selected a scapegoat, a villain who would've done it had he thought of it.
Did Saddam Hussein have Weapons of Mass destruction? I don't know.
I know the motivation behind all conflict is economic and the rallying cry to drum up support is almost always unrelated to the true motivation. Thus, I do not see the 9-11 truth movement ever altering our course in Afghanistan. Similarly the failure to produce WMD's in Iraq did not end the mission there.
Do I care? Sure I care...but do I feel the truth will make a tangible difference in my reality? No.
I don't believe in the case of 9-11 justice will ever be served. I wish those with the energy and endurance to pursue the truth the best. However ultimately, there is no reasonable action I can take (other than the libertarian political philosophy I have adopted).
It's sad, but this topic is really a moot point unless truthers can legitimately point the finger at specific individuals. You can't just say "the government did it". The status quo will always win out because they say..."THAT GUY DID IT" and the majority of the 'masses', which unfortunately includes all of us will adhere to the simplest argument. There's comfort in knowing who was responsible.
There's simplicity in pointing a finger.
But pointing the finger at some nondescript entity that just happens to be the largest employer in the United States, is not going to change anything. Most Americans I think will agree they don't rightly know exactly what happened. Adhering to one theory or another is irrelevant.
Truthers need to find different facts, or ultimately you're wasting your breath. Tell me where Cheney was, was he affiliated with people who could've implemented your theory? Tell me who grounded the aircraft, could he have been affiliated with the people who implemented the theory. Tell me who was in charge of eperimental weaponry and where they were, arrange details the way a competent investigator would...by targeting a criminal.
I know there are lies and incorrect facts...but the fact that someone is lying does not identify the motivation for the lie nor assign guilt. Truthers are basically out there screaming "WE DON"T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED" hard to get motivated or change minds with that slogan...everyone agrees with you, we don't know exactly what happened.
What we don't agree on is pointing fingers at non-descript villains.
Just my thoughts...most time I have ever put into this topic.
It'll happen.......... the internet is the equalizer
All the other false flags didn't have this awareness factor.
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Follow the thermite trail...
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Follow the money, and oil pipelines.
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the waters are too muddy for you brand of anal-retention
In countries where the levers of power are in the hands of a state bureaucracy, the monopolistic control over the media, often supplemented by official censorship, makes it clear that the media serve the ends of a dominant elite.
It is much more difficult to see a propaganda system at work where the media are private and formal censorship is absent. This is especially true where the media actively compete, periodically attack and expose corporate and governmental malfeasance, and aggressively portray themselves as spokesmen for free speech and the general community interest. What is not evident (and remains undiscussed in the media) is the limited nature of such critiques, as well as the huge inequality in command of resources, and its effect both on access to a private media system and on its behavior and performance.
A propaganda model focuses on this inequality of wealth and power and its multilevel effects on mass-media interests and choices. It traces the routes by which money and power are able to filter out the news fit to print, marginalize dissent, and allow the government and dominant private interests to get their messages across to the public.
The essential ingredients of our propaganda model, or set of news “filters,” fall under the following headings: (1) the size, concentrated ownership, owner wealth, and profit orientation of the dominant mass-media firms; (2) advertising as the primary income source of the mass media; (3) the reliance of the media on information provided by government, business, and “experts” funded and approved by these primary sources and agents of power; (4) “flak” as a means of disciplining the media; and (5) “anticommunism” as a national religion and control mechanism…
The elite domination of the media and marginalization of dissidents that results from the operation of these filters occurs so naturally that media news people, frequently operating with complete integrity and goodwill, are able to convince themselves that they choose and interpret the news “objectively” and on the basis of professional news values.
Within the limits of the filter constraints they often are objective; the constraints are so powerful, and are built into the system in such a fundamental way, that alternative bases of news choices are hardly imaginable…
Perhaps more important, powerful sources regularly take advantage of media routines and dependency to “manage” the media, to manipulate them into following a special agenda and framework (as we will show in detail in the chapters that follow).
Part of this management process consists of inundating the media with stories, which serve sometimes to foist a particular line and frame on the media (e.g., Nicaragua as illicitly supplying arms to the Salvadoran rebels), and at other times to help chase unwanted stories off the front page or out of the media altogether (the alleged delivery of MIGs to Nicaragua during the week of the 1984 Nicaraguan election).
This strategy can be traced back at least as far as the Committee on Public Information, established to coordinate propaganda during World War I, which “discovered in I9I7-I8 that one of the best means of controlling news was flooding news channels with ‘facts,’ or what amounted to official information.”
The relation between power and sourcing extends beyond official and corporate provision of day-to-day news to shaping the supply of “experts.” The dominance of official sources is weakened by the existence of highly respectable unofficial sources that give dissident views with great authority.
This problem is alleviated by “co-opting the experts”-i.e., putting them on the payroll as consultants, funding their research, and organizing think tanks that will hire them directly and help disseminate their messages…
Manufacturing Consent
A Propaganda Model
by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky
Pantheon Books, 1988
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woo hoo!
this is a sell-out
we all know what truth is.
merely stating that we could never know the precise truth allows us to justify the overwhelming evidence of foul play.
instead of looking at the issue, you hide behind the murky definition of absolute truth.
for example, i could never state with certainty that all crows are black, because i could never know if lurking behind some tree was a blue crow. for me to prove that all crows are black, would require me to look at the crows on the planet -- an impossible feat.
so your faith rests on the axiom that the truth cannot be known -- an interesting strategy, to say the least.
Hi Rhino
Please tell us how two planes brought down three buildings at the speed of gravity into their own footprint.
Are you guys all cribbing
Are you guys all cribbing from the same lame set of talking points?
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
LOL?
A lame talking point would be Claiming Physics suddenly doesn't matter is is not evidence as you just did by making claim that Science fact is lame.
____________________________________________________
The Abuse of Greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power. - Shakespeare
The Abuse of Greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power. - Shakespeare
HMMMM
LOL, I knew you would avoid answering.
It's called circumlocution
.
9/11 Commission’s findings cite intelligence garnered by torture
* Here is a side of the "9/11 truth" that will help many people begin to allow themselves to question what really happened on 9/11 and the validity of the 9/11 Commission Report's findings.
5/13/2009 Report: much of 9/11 Commission’s findings cite intelligence garnered by torture
Much of the material cited in the 9/11 Commission’s findings was derived from terror war detainees during brutal CIA interrogations authorized by the Bush administration, according to a Wednesday report.
“More than one-quarter of all footnotes in the 9/11 Report refer to CIA interrogations of al Qaeda operatives subjected to the now-controversial interrogation techniques,” writes former NBC producer Robert Windrem in The Daily Beast. “In fact, information derived from the interrogations was central to the 9/11 Report’s most critical chapters, those on the planning and execution of the attacks...
more...
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/13/report-much-of-911-co...
*****
"I truly wish that real life would no longer surpass the worst excesses of my nightmarish imaginings... Arthur Silber **
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd