If government is so great, why does it have to be forced on people?
Submitted by none on Thu, 06/11/2009 - 08:01To continue the theme of what a Jack (Rule of Law) implied was anarchy week here on the DP, I want to pose a question for those of you on both sides of this issue to think about and feel free to respond to if you'd like.
Why is it that government, if it is indeed so great, must be forced on everyone? If the 'services' it provides so valuable, why does it simply not allow any competition in the areas it declares sole authority over, and more importantly, why does it demand and enforce that everyone (except the politically connected, of course) pay for it's 'services'?
If government is superior, why doesn't it allow for competition?
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If Government Cared About Humanity, it Would Self-Terminate
Time for Government to Finally Ban Itself
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"Government is appetite, and it is never satisfied"...
"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic."
-- Dresden James
"When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers, and destroyers press upon them so fast, that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon the American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour. The revenue creates pensioners, and the pensioners urge for more revenue. The people grow less steady, spirited, and virtuous, the seekers more numerous and more corrupt, and every day increases the circles of their dependents and expectants, until virtue, integrity, public spirit, simplicity, and frugality, become the objects of ridicule and scorn, and vanity, luxury, foppery, selfishness, meanness, and downright venality swallow up the whole society."
--John Adams
"The Constitution has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it."
--Lysander Spooner
Appetites
John Adams was definitely right when he said, "When the people give way, . . . " Meanwhile, Spooner thinks the Constitution somehow prevents anything. It is the people who must do the preventing. When they fall asleep at the wheel, others are happy to start driving where they want to go. . .
KenM
I Believe it was George Washington......
....who said "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
Every time we quote our ancestors,
we must realize why they said what they said.
The government of the 1700's was oppressive, without a doubt.
It seems to me that most of the quotes from the Revolutionary War era deal with an oppressive government and a freedom bound populace.
Funny how history repeats itself.
Keep spreading Dr. Paul's message people, the worse times that happens, the more people who are willing to listen.
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Hear, Hear.
Our only hope is the populace truly desires freedom and are not sheeple looking for Big Brother to save them from their own weakness.
Government should have 2 purposes only.
1) protect the citizen's freedom and liberty.
2) protect the citizen's from physical harm.
Everything else is a waste of our tax dollars.
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Houston, we have a problem...
Government can not do those things Felix. On your first point, government can not protect every individual's liberties that it claims dominion over. In order for government to be government, it must take what does not belong to it by force and maintain a monopoly on 'law'. And on your second point, I simply will ask you why you feel that your self defense is ought to be someone else's responsibility. I have no desire to force you to defend me, why must you force me to defend you via government?
Yes, Houston, we do have a problem
The problem seems to be that people believe that government has dominion over people's liberties in this Union of states. If you wish to give them away, they will surely take them. Otherwise, they are yours for good and there is no way government can take them.
As to a monopoly on law, there is only one law, so how can there not be a monopoly? The law is, that all men are created equally and endowed with unalienable rights. All other laws must conform to this and assist people in preserving the rights or they are void, in my opinion.
On my part, I am willing to give a limited government specific priveleges for things I would like it to do as long as the gov't does not violate my basic rights. If they violate my basic rights, I plan for changing that.
What other law do you want to have, none?
It is apparent to me that you are so used to living with a usurping government that you think that is the only way it can be. And, indeed, it is the only way it will be if people don't pay attention.
KenM
I am so glad you responded.
You are an anarchist as I believe.
I say that the founding fathers wrote the Constitution to restrain the power of the government. This is as plain as day. They were in direct opposition to totalitarian rule by a monarchy, that unjusted taxed and subjugated them. In the climate of those times, governmental oppression was one of the worst enemies to the colonists. Therefore, I am correct that the purpose of the Constitution was to restrain the government as Ron Paul has said on numerous occasions.
Secondly, when I said that the government should protect its citizens from harm, this is in direct correlation to what Dr. Paul and the Constitution provides for. The Constitution does give the government the power to form a military to protect this country.
If you believe that other countries in this world wouldn't attack us if they sensed weakness, then you are a fool.
If you have a problem believing what Ron Paul says, then why are you here?
I knew the Constitution was the greatest document ever penned by man even before I knew Dr. Paul. This is where I am coming from, where are you coming from?
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You're welcome. I encourage conversation & debate. But…
But, as with most indoctrinated statists, you've reduced yourself to declaring yourself correct and insulting me in your first response. That’s not a debate. Would you like to put on your big boy pants and try again?
Just for starters, Article 1 Section 8 did not limit the government. It enabled the government to declare how much, from whom, and under which circumstances it would take what didn't belong to it. It did not restrict the federal government, it empowered the federal government. History has shown this, and I have recently posted this evidence. You are, therefore, not correct in stating that 'the constitution was written to restraint the government'.
In light of this, it is also clear that the federal government does not exist to protect the people it claims dominion over from harm. I don't like the misuse of the word 'citizen' as it's very misleading. A citizen is a person who, in exchange for an oath of allegiance to, receives an obligation of protection from and by government. Go look it up in an actual dictionary, not on the government IRS forms, OK? Did the farmers in Western PA who were imprisoned and died over their resistance to the federal tax on whiskey enjoy the 'protection' of the federal government? Do you? If you think so, you’re wrong. But don’t believe me. Look up the cases and judgments from any court, up to and including the US Supreme Court that have to do with people who claim that the government failed to protect them. Cases like Castle Rock v. Gonzales. Tell me, does the government have any obligation to protect someone it claims dominion over? The facts and the law say no.
I’ll leave you with one final thought. Your opinion about the document that makes it ‘legal’ for the government to steal my property is duly noted. I doubt you’d have the courage to come steal from me for yourself. Best to let government do that stealing for you, huh?
None, I believe you are an anarchist,
This was not as insult, this was my observation. If you are an anarchist, it doesn't bother me in the least. Everyone has their own opinion/ideology.
Secondly, whenever someone on the Daily Paul, argues against what Dr. Paul has publicly stated on numerous occasions, it raises a red flag with me.
Ron Paul has always said that the Constitution was written to restrain the government, and Ron Paul has always fought for property rights for the individual.
Just because government doesn't obey the Constitution, doesn't mean that the Constitution is wrong.
I never said that the government had the right to steal your property.
We have opposing views, but at least my view is consistent with Dr. Paul's view.
P.S. - no need to ridicule me with terms like "big boy pants". And another thing I've never stolen anything in my life. I worked hard for everything my family has.
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Government
KenM
There are those on this post that seem to think their sovereignty should just be automatically be recognized and respected by everyone else. You have to remember that most people have no idea what sovereignty is or entails in this day and age. If they felt the fire of liberty in their hearts the way you and I do, the game would be over. Just like that, the IRS would be gone, DHS would be gone, and on and on.
When I mentioned extracting oneself from the "system," I was told that should be unnecessary and that, beside, it doesn't work because the "authorities" will seek one out and jail or murder.
Freedom is not free. Sovereignty DOES work. But if we all say, "Oh, it's just a pain. I'm not going to do it," then what business do we have complaining that we are not free?
"I don't volunteer to pay the IRS, I'm coerced." What is coercion? It's being shepherded. So is that your choice? You can claim all day and all night that you are "coerced." But the fact that we give into that coercion means it works for them, right? What does someone do when they get rewarded for their behavior? They do more of it, right? So if you dislike this coercion, but keep giving into it, you can look forward to more of it!
So go ahead! Keep blaming the "authorities" for being thieves and murderers while you continue to send in your voluntary payment. Keep complaining you're not free while you don't keep teaching others about freedom. Keep wishing for something better while you settle for what you have.
Guess what? It's not the authorities fault. It's yours. So do something about it. There's 300 million people within the 50 united States. There's only about 500 people in the "chambers of power." Need I say more?
If you're already actively educating - Great! If you're already learning the law so you can be sovereign - Great! If you're already teaming with others to develop a strategy - Great! If you are doing none of these things, enjoy the security that the matrix provides, because that is all you will ever experience.
KenM
Stop the strawman BS
Stop the strawman BS excuses. Your claim is; because of the constitution that one can be 100% free. No one is arguing that people do not automatically recognize our sovereignty, that is a given so with or without the constitution people do not recognize it great, now tell me why do I need the constitution? Especially when it is used as a pretext to violating peoples sovereignty under color of law giving such violations a false sense of legitimacy ?
Now this is your last chance to actually answer the questions instead of dancing all around the issue or I'll have to just write you off as a another misguided soul...
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Hawkiye
I just read your more involved post down the line. . .
It is obvious to me, if you are being completely honest about what you have done, that it is now necessary to define what it is that you mean by being "free."
You claim that, "Well I have tried it many years ago and dealt with it all. Bottom line is the constitution does not allow me to live 100% free and you can't show any evidence that it does! Only I can do that for myself so why do I need it?"
Tried what? Being free? If you tried many years ago to be free, what happened? How do you try being free? To me, you are either free or not. This is like trying to be pregnant. Are you pregnant or are you not?
The confusion obviously is in what you perceive freedom to be. Apparently, you believe that freedom is some imaginary state in which no one ever disagrees with you, tries to control you, tries to convince you to do things, threatens you, or otherwise does anything you don't like. Guess what, such a fantasy land does not and never will exist among thinking, feeling men.
In my case, my realization that I am, indeed, a sovereign individual under the Constitution automatically means I get to choose my battles.
You seem to think I have no right to speak of freedom because I "haven't tried it." Quite the contrary. Each day I understand more and more about what it means and feels like to be free. And though I can see many battles on the horizon, I know that I am the one choosing the battles. That means I am practicing my sovereignty already, instead of living in the matrix as a herded sheep following someone else's plans.
You said, "What you describe in your strategies is just trying to stay off thier radar, it's not true freedom its just hiding which limits your freedom." Once again, you seem to think I'm hiding out of fear. I have no need to stay off their radar. Look at my posts. I use my actual name while folks like you hide behind pseudonyms. I have nothing to fear.
Freedom is choosing your battleground and your battles. Sheep let the shepherds plan the path. You seem to think that if I just jumped up today and said, "Okay, from now on I'm not paying taxes," that somehow that displays real freedom. No, that displays real ignorance unless I have planned what to do next, when the "authorities" show up.
I guess you would have made a good British soldier. You don't hide, you go straight to the front of the regiment, ready to fire into the army in front of you. That may be brave and it may be a sign of some kind of loyalty, but it sure isn't smart or a display of freedom. Meanwhile, the outnumbered minutement are behind rocks picking them off one by one. Are they hidiing behind rocks out of fear or because they are smart enough to know that, being outnumbered, the traditional way of fighting will not work? (Well, I'm sure, for them, there WAS fear too!)
Apparently you equate freedom with rashness, bravado, and lack of planning. I, on the other hand equate freedom with knowing that I'm the one planning where I'm going and knowing exactly what I'm going to do when I get there. With diverse opinions about freedom like this, we will never agree on anything!
So, hawkiye, who is the one who is free? Is it the one who "tried it long ago" and decided it doesn't work so now he just pays his taxes and complains that "it didn't work." Or is it the one who uses the system as it is as part of his plan for organizing his steps and feels the beat of freedom in his heart?
Finally, you said, "we would do better not to have any documents that claim to give any group a monopoly on power and authority!" Will yuo show me the part of the Constitution that "claims to give a group monopoly power and authority?" The only part I can find that is remotely like that is at the very beginning, where "we the people" define why we are delegating specific things to this limited governmnent. Thus, we have monopoly authority over the government.
KenM
BS
Well, hawkiye, no matter what I say are the reasons you "need" a constitution, you will claim you do not need it. It is clear that I cannot convince you that it is "needed."
Yet, those who framed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and then the Constitution recognized a "need" for a limited government and tried to give us one. Admittedly, there were those who wanted government to have more power. Like you, I have often wished that the Articles of Confederation had been left. In perfect 20/20 hindsight, those would be better from the perspective of tying the hands of the federal government.
Now, why do I think you "need" the constitution? I think those of us who do love liberty "need" the constitution because what shreds of it that are left still allow us to operate as sovereign individuals with Constitutional law at our backs. That doesn't mean it's easy for us, but we can do it. If the Constitution were to be revoked or replaced in the present day, I believe it would be replaced by something which truly and completely binds the people, instead of binding the government - tenuous as those bindings may be.
I have had numerous conversations with staunch Democrats who believe the Constitution is worthless and should be replaced with something of purer democratic principles. That would be MUCH worse than having the republic we have today, as disabled as it has become.
So "authorities" do not take kindly to people who express pure Constitutional rights, yet, in the end, until the Constitution is finally demolished for good, those "authorities" do get limited and our rights do get protected - for the most part. Perhaps you witnessed the video on Daily Paul of the guy who challenged the "border patrol." If we did not have some tatters of the Constitution remaining in effect, that guy would have not walked away with just stitches - he'd be dead right now.
I've said it before. The Constitution is not perfect and its imperfections have made a way for abuses of power. But it is far better than what we are likely to get these days if we allow it to be rescinded or replaced.
You need the Constitution today because, in its purest form, it is the closest thing we've ever had to maximum sovereignty and minimum government with plenty of defense from foreign invasion.
Finally, I did say we still, under this constitution, can be 100% free. That DOES NOT MEAN free from other people's ignorance and abuse of power. That is one of the risks of being free: You have to be ready to protect yourself from the idiots of the world.
KenM
It's clear you have no idea
That guy was lucky there, there a plenty of people dead and sitting in jail now because they exercised thier sovereignty that you and others know nothing about nor care about. You just want to have some romantic vision of it instead of facing reality.
It's clear you have no idea what you are talking about and can't seem to follow a conversation. Also assuming all kinds of things about me to appease your emotional attachment to you false ideal of freedom. You are not free, because of government and abuse of power etc. If you are forced to do or not do things you desire that harm no one then you are a slave to thier abuse of power period.
You have no idea what I have been through and what you speak of, once a again you repeat crap you read somewhere with no real world experience. Go do it and then come back and tell us how it all worked out for you.
Oh and I am not hiding behind a screen name I just like my privacy and am not stupid enough to blast my name all over the internet like some folks who seem to know nothing about what information is available on them with just a name.
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None
Just in case "none" is checking in, I answered his "seriously" statement below.
KenM
KenM
Anarchy Threads bring out the most Intelligent Debates - Rock On
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Government forced on people?
Government is not forced on people. In most cases, people volunteer to be part of the pattern of today's "government." Who here did not beg to "get my driver's license," so that you would have "permission to drive?" Who does not then voluntarily apply for/register to get "licenses" for their vehicles. Who here does not voluntarily send in a 1040 form every year? Who here does not apply for a passport and declare, "Yes, oh, yes, I am a United States citizen!" If you do any of these things, you volunteer to be "subject to the jurisdiction" of this thing called the "United States."
However, the original government was chosen and formed by "we the people" in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare (which means retain conditions in which people can thrive), and secure the blessings of liberty.
We could do all these things on our own. However, all of them will cost something. The Founders knew and recognized that without somehow binding our individual countries into a Union, it could be easy for outside powers (most notably England, France, and Spain at the time) to walk in and take possession and subject all the people to their tyrannical forms of government. Thus they wanted to form a way that the people can be unified for the common defense.
One can defend his own possessions against theft, but it may require expensive security equipment which still does not guarantee the prevention of theft OR that thieves will be caught and properly tried and sentenced. Further, if your security cameral records an individual taking items, but the clearest picture shows a bearded white man, six foot tall wearing blue jeans and black jacket, you may look for such a man in your community. So when you find such a person, how do you find out if he's the one who did it? Maybe a court and due process? Ta Da - now you have judicial process.
You will get no argument from me that the current, so called "United States" government does not even attempt to secure liberty or promote the general welfare or insure domestic tranquility (does hundreds of tea parties sound like there is tranquility?) However, the Constitution still provides the option for you, an individual, to be sovereign and free of the craziness.
It's easy to complain and criticise what we have, which I agree is imperfect. I would, in fact, claim that all governments are imperfect. Only the laws of nature are perfect. However, our Constitution is the only one in the world that still allows every human citizen of a state of the Union to be 100% free of government coercion. It just needs to be done. . . .
KenM
voluntary vs. coercion.
People send in their 1040 because they are threatened with violence if they fail to do so.
A threat is coercive in nature. There's nothing voluntary about it.
Volluntary vs. coercion
People are, indeed, threatened. And so, feeling fear, they send it in voluntarily.
If I met you on the street and said, "Give me your money or I'll throw you in front of a car," you would have at least two choices. You could volunteer to give me the money, thus avoiding the danger. Or, you could say, "F*** you, and keep walking."
In truth, you have many options. For example, you could sit down with me and discuss the morality of taking people's money. Or you could punch me in the face or kick me in the groin. You could get out your phone and call the police.
In short, your options are near limitless.
Yet, you might just give me the money as people do every year to the IRS.
Let me ask you, what would the IRS do if EVERY person in the 50 states of the Union said, "Hell no, I'm not giving the IRS any of my money?"
Think about the apparent story of 911. Recall the airplane that is said to have crashed in PA. The stories I heard are that passengers found out what was happening that day, knew they were next, and said, "Not me." Then they ganged together on the plane to stop the hijackers.
The next time someone tries to hijack a plane here, what do you think the chances are that the passengers are going to sit around like little sheep waiting for the slaughter? I say, "None." My guess is that there won't be another hijacking over the states of the Union for at least a generation (unless its by some true lunatic) because no one is going to sit idly by while they are taken to slaughter.
If you want to be a sheep, then go along to slaughter limelemon. Go ahead and volunteer to be part of hte system.
As for me, I will be establishing myself as a sovereign, learning the law, and, afterward, I will no longer be a sheep. And I will not go to jail for retaining my property, which is one of the innumberable unalienable rights we sought to protect with the Constitution.
KenM
Let me know
Great. Let me know when you establish yourself as a sovereign. Do prisons offer internet access?
Fear
You have well established in your many posts why it is that you are not free. You fear prison. You fear death. Your fear is your greatest master. Government comes in second. Currently, you appear to be a distant third. Perhaps someday you will be your own master.
KenM
KenM
prison
Do you fear prison? If not, then why do you pay taxes?
Fear
This is an interesting question. You might have asked, "If you don't fear prison, why don't you kill someone? Or, why don't you go out and steal?" Your claim seems to be that only fear rules everyone's life, as it apparently does yours.
My reasons, currently, for paying taxes has nothing to do with fear of prison. In fact, I would argue that most people who pay taxes do so for reasons other than because they fear prison. Rather, most people have been indoctrinated into the system so well and so effortlessly that they pay taxes just because they see it as a part of life. I can remember many people saying they pay taxes because they believe that "freedom comes with responsibility." They believe that their annual IRS contributions are necessary for the operation of the government and they are happy to live in the United States. Thus they are happy to pay the taxes.
Just a couple years ago, I was part of this crowd that never really thought about it. I just paid taxes because it's just something that grown, responsible people do to ensure the "benefits" of society.
Now that I have awakened and have a plan, I am paying my taxes while I educate myself. When I have what I believe to be adequate education in this area, I will move on to the next step.
It would be pur stupidity, in my opinion, for people (unless there was a mass decision as I mentioned earlier; a mass decision by most taxpayers would immediately bring change) to just stop paying taxes without first developing the knowledge they need to handle and address the likely consequences. Walking blindly into a den of snakes is no way to prove anything, except that you are not a very good boy scout and are a glutton for punishment.
So why am I paying taxes? Because it is, for the moment, part of my strategy that gives me time to prepare. A warrior worth his salt always has a strategy.
KenM
KenM
Stop the strawman BS
Stop the strawman BS excuses. Your claim is; because of the constitution that one can be 100% free. No one is arguing that people do not automatically recognize our sovereignty or that there are no consequences etc., that is a given so with or without the constitution people do not recognize it. Great now tell me why do I need the constitution? Especially when it is used as a pretext to violating peoples sovereignty under color of law giving such violations a false sense of legitimacy?
Why won't you address the question? You bring up fear and you haven't even tried it. Well I have tried it many years ago and dealt with it all. Bottom line is the constitution does not allow me to live 100% free and you can't show any evidence that it does! Only I can do that for myself so why do I need it?
What you describe in your strategies is just trying to stay off thier radar, it's not true freedom its just hiding which limits your freedom, been there done that!
Your just spouting off crap you have read with no real world experience in trying to claim ones sovereignty. One of the main reasons authorities use force is because they believe the constitution along with other laws sanctions thier violence. Right or wrong the results are the same and we would do better not to have any documents that claim to give any group a monopoly on power and authority!
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Voluntary Association +
Voluntary Association + Mutual Cooperation + 110% Personal Responsibility = 100% Individual Liberty
This is what anarchy really is. People will say yeah but it won't work because people will not take responsibility and it will be the wild wild west... (Thank you TV and media brainwash). What's the difference we already have all that and government is a willing participant and facilitator in the theft plunder and murder.
Nothing is perfect. I just want to be left the hell alone to voluntarily associate and mutually cooperate with whom I choose. Can anyone disagree with that? Yeah there will be some who will try and take advantage of such a society as they do in any society. However I can voluntarily cooperate with others to bring them to justice if they harm me or others.
Please explain to me why I need some gang who calls themselves government to steal the fruits of my labors at the threat of violence or imprisonment if I do not submit and claims to protect me, but in fact plunders me the same as any other criminals except they claim the right and authority to do it under color of law? What is the difference between them and the Mafias protection racket?
Oh you say but its not the constitution it's corrupt politicians who don't follow the constitituion, then explain to me what body of law allowed these people into seats of power if not the constitution? Even if the constitution were near flawless as many argue and it was just those in power abusing it, it proves that man is simply not capable of ruling others benevolently and protecting freedom therefor we should not give any men any power whatsoever. We should cultivate a culture of freedom with a strong right to self defense so people believe it is right and good to stand up to criminals with force even if they claim some government authority.
Listen to what one of our founding fathers has to say about government and then tell me what he is advocating? I have posted this several times on several different threads but the detractors have refused to even address it. http://www.mises.org/story/2897
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Anarchy?
KenM
I agree with you almost 100%. In fact, you can, right now, where you are, under whatever conditions you live, have 100% liberty.
The great think about it is that you can do so BECAUSE of the constitution, not in spite of it.
You said, "I just want to be left the hell alone to voluntarily associate and mutually cooperate with whom I choose." Well, BECAUSE of the Constitution, you can do that RIGHT NOW. If you are being genuine and true to your word, you can do it RIGHT NOW!
Note that you and others in this post have been talking about being 100% free of government coercion. When you do that, you become 100% responsible for the consequences. If you are ready for that, then DO IT NOW! Our great Constitution has paved the way for you!
Just as the Constitution provided a way for crooks and corrupt politicians to become thieves and murderers, it also provided a way for you to be 100% free of obligation!
You should be grateful for this document. But I can assure you, the path of freedom in today's United States structure is not an easy one (as if it ever was.)
KenM
"You said, "I just want to
Really? I think you need to back that statement up with some proof. First of all I cannot be 100% free as long as the Constitution allows confiscatory taxes ( theft of my property). If I refuse to pay I will be hauled into court and jailed, if I resist I will be killed.
Under the Commerce clause congress has the power to regulate commerce among the states. I think they misinterpret it but never the less it gives them supposed authority to regulate and tax my goods and or services that I seek to sell or trade. How is that 100% freedom?
If I chose to grow certain types of plants I can be arrested and jailed. if I resist such arrest I can be killed. How is that 100% freedom?
If I practice certain healing methods not approved by the state I can be jailed and if I resist I can be killed.
If I manufacture certain types of fuel in my backyard without permission and paying of taxes I can be jailed and if I resist I can be killed.
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