Did the Creator bestow inalienable rights on anarchists?
Those who advise anarchists to "just leave" are not event trying to address the very legitimate question that anarchists pose. The Constitution that everyone is defending so vociferously is the best testimony against it self: "The government draws its just powers from the consent of the governed."
What about people who do not consent? There is no rational justification for expecting them to leave a piece of ground because some person claims that ground belongs to them. The squirrels do not consent to be governed by the US Constitution, do you expect them to leave, too?
Increasingly, I do not "fit in" with any political party, or with any segment of any "movement." Does that mean I give up my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I think not. Happiness for me is a big, fat steaming plate of anarchy.
To paraphrase Spooner, either the Constitution allowed GWB and Cheney to turn this into a corporate / fascist state and Obama to get elected without proving his eligibility, or it was powerless to prevent it.
I do not consent to ANY man's laws.




















Thoughts
The just powers quote comes not from the Constitution, but from the Declaration of Independence. If it actually were in the Constitution (which I favor), it would be a much different ballgame today.
To answer the post title question: The idea of a Creator bestowing rights was a term of art of the time used to appeal to the masses, who then just like now, are predominantly religious. The real answer is that the political creation of rights being bestowed by anyone is merely that--a political fiction created by man to justify their own rules to set them over others, in the same way that some governments take that claim in place of some Creator. Atheists claim the rights are bestowed by mere existence as individuals (long, different argument tangent there, leave it be), but even that is still a man-made creation of assumption of a man-made construct of the idea of "rights".
Just as no person has no real rights outside of a socio-political context, neither does any person have any authority or power to limit or unlimit them.
IOW, look past the political fictions and into the dog-eat-dog world of reality, and you'll find that rights are a construct of human and only human consciousness and ego. (Something the animal rights fools haven't figured out and probably never will) It's very easy to get wrapped up in the political dysfunctionality that surrounds and permeates life, but it is necessary to unravel it and step back from it to look at the basic premises from time to time.
Why yes he did,
anarchists have the same rights as we do.
But trolls, in my opinion are traitors.
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FOR THE MILLIONITH TIME
IT'S NOT INALIENABLE it's UNALIENABLE. For the difference...
http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm
You ask your question, I will ask mine
I understand the difference, and I asked the question that I wanted people to consider. Your question would only be understood by a very few people. My question leads to the heart of the issue that raises your question.
Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.
OOPS my bad.
I get you. I thought you were trying to be sneaky with you're spelling of the word.
It's the flouride. lol.
yes
All an anarchist is is someone who supports the right to bear arms.
We get all the guns, and the president gets none.
You bet ya. Good people do
You bet ya.
Good people do Good deeds
Good people make it happen
The inalienable rights of men...
exist beyond any form of, or the absence of, government. It's quite simple, consent is each man's (or woman's) weapon against the exterior world, free will is the method of deployment. Circumstances, what they may be, withstanding, what good is it to gain the whole world and in the process to lose one's own soul. Wiser words were never spoken and should press upon the hearts of all living souls.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
They have the right to die.
"There is no rational justification for expecting them to leave a piece of ground because some person claims that ground belongs to them."
And you need to add: UNLESS THEY CAN PROVE IT!
If someone knows that their property is truly theirs, will they walk away? No way!
The law protects against trespassers, and the stealing of someone's property.
There is governmental law and natural law. This is natural law, protecting what directly belongs to you.
Of course!
They are inalienable rights.
You have the right to be 100% sovereign, and make your property your own country.
Nobody is stopping you.
The question is, "Can you defend your inalienable rights, after you assert them?"
Because if you can't, you won't have them.
You live in an area claimed and defended by a currently existing entity, called the US.
The US is going to defend its claim as its jurisdiction, which was won over 200 years ago in a war, and has been defended since that time, or they wouldn't have it anymore.
So, anytime you're ready to win a war against them, go right ahead.
Hypotheticals stop when the rubber hits the road.
Talk is cheap.
If you can't back it up, it's nothing but hot air.
In answer to your headline post.
Of course unalienable rights are bestowed upon anarchists if not then they would not be unalienable.
Like the sun the shines in the sky, it's light is free, but difficult to reject, though you may try.
Perhaps you can be a creature of the dark, try coming out only at night, except you still have light since the Creator provides light for you from other stars and sunlight reflected by the moon. In this case, you may wish to reject all light, you may want to dig a hole in the ground and live in a cave, but that will of course lead to death. Total darkness is death. First the Creator created light, then he separated the darkness from the light, even Satan depends on the Creator for the light from which he was separated.
As per the second question of your post, do anarchists have unalienable rights under the Constitution? I have to agree with you that the Constitution provides nothing for free, unlike our Creator and requires participation in order to recieve something in return, so the answer is no, anarchist do not have rights to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness under the Constitution because the Constitution is a binding contract, giving government rights for which anarchist cannot trust to guarentee for them. I would suggest that anarchist think along the lines of minarchism, working together on the local level to bring down the Federal government which is a constructive way of building a society that eventually may achieve anarchy or individual government, whatever that may be.
Everyone has their role.
grant
If I wanted squirrels off of my property
i would fire a few warning shots at them or poison them. Just as I would do to someone who refused to seperate themselves from my property.
I enjoyed Nock's, Enemy of the State, but I do not agree with Henry George' belief of humanity owning all the land.
nock/henry george
Are all men created equal?
Do all have equal rights?
Well then, that includes equal right to the use of nature -- which no man created. (Notice: "equal," not "collective"!)
George -- just like Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, and the French Physiocrats -- made a distinction between usufruct ownership -- the freedom to live securely on one's land, use it and enjoy it -- and absolute ownership in which the land is a private asset, to be sold or rented for gain.
When most people refer to the sanctity of private property, they are saying they don't want the government or somebody else to be able to invade their privacy, take away their property, or boss them around about how to use it. All of this is fine -- that's usufruct.
The one thing usufruct does not include is the "right" to use land as a way to earn money for nothing.
Herbert Spencer observed that once one grants an absolute right to ownership of land as private money-making asset, then one man could own the entire earth and charge everyone else rent for the right to live on it.
George saw the evil in absolute private property in land and wanted to return land to the usufruct basis. The mechanism was a "tax" (strictly speaking, it's a user fee based on assessed market value) falling exclusively upon land, taxing away the rent -- the unearned gain which exists not due to any effort by the owner but due to the growth of the surrounding community, and the increasing demand for space to live and work.
* Note: this is different from the conventional property tax which actually, in most cases, hits real capital (buildings) much more heavily than land. However, the land value tax could be achieved by a simple shift in the property tax.
This local land tax would fund government, from the bottom up. (Note how this meshes with the original tax provisions in the U.S. Constitution, as well as the Articles of Confederation!)
Any revenue above that which the community deems necessary can be distributed as a citizens dividend, much like Alaska's oil dividend. This is not welfare, it is the collection and distribution of privilege.
In a Georgist system all other taxes would be abolished, since they are taxes on actual private property and productive activity.
Milton Friedman has said Henry George's land tax would be the "least bad" tax. In the opinion of many Georgists, it would actually be good. For one thing, land tax discourages speculation and actually frees up the land market, which because of speculation is currently not very free at all.
The Ultimate Tax Reform (short essay)
The Ultimate Tax Reform (different -- in-depth policy study)
Very important: Land tax, being by its nature local (except for state and federal land, fishing rights, radio spectrum and certain other state- and federally granted privileges), also lends itself to a return of power to local government.
George wrote:
One could even envision this principle working in an anarchist society. It really all depends on where and how it is implemented.
- dave
Henry George School/Chicago
by the way --
Private monopoly of land is not unlike private monopoly on money. Except it's worse: it's possible to live without money, yet it is impossible, so far as I can determine, to live without land and other natural resources. For that reason and others, I have come to believe geonomic tax reform is of higher priority than even monetary reform.
Forced taxation is theft
Forced taxation is theft period!
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End The Fat
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Get Prepared!
"Taxes" are inevitable, if you want to live somewhere
Or rather, let's use the term "rent."
Face it, you want to live somewhere more or less permanently, you have to part with some portion of your earnings. When you sign a lease or a mortgage, the larger portion of what you're paying for is the location. The classical term for this is land rent. You pay land rent to a private landlord, who is authorized by the state by means of a "Title." A "Lord" with a "title" ... who knew feudalism was still in force?? Isn't this rent -- which you have to pay in order to live -- also a tax? In that sense, isn't a landlord a local government? But he is a rather autocratic, one-man local government who doesn't necessarily represent your best interest.
Rather than enriching an autocrat, this land rent should instead be appropriated by a local government which actually represents you, such as your village, township, or county. It should become the revenue source for the community. The community creates this value in the first place: by existing, by forming a local economy, a local government, infrastructure, public services.
Town or county too big for you? Fine, let's take this principle down to the level of a contractual community associations.
Collecting rent as revenue is the way to take away the profit of the privilege in owning land, and reclaim it for the community. Yet it still allows everyone the freedom and security to live where and how they wish. It is the nearest we're ever likely to come to the anarchist ideal of abolishing what's bad about private land ownership, while retaining the good parts.
This is a good discussion.
The fact that the Constitution allowed GWB and Cheney to turn this into a corporate/fascist state and Obama to get elected is irrelavant.
The Constitution is only a tool for building.
The Constitution is just as unlikely to provide Liberty and Freedom as is the bible for providing salvation. In both cases there is a necessity for individual action and proper action.
The Constitution can be changed in our favor if we manage to get control of the reigns. If not, then those who would use it to build for building walls to protect their castles, will do so, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.
Kings never build castles or walls, they invent schemes get ignorant peasants to willingly do it for them.
grant
Everyone wants to go to heaven; nobody wants to die!
HOGWASH! Place the blame
HOGWASH! Place the blame where it belongs instead of this Constitutional "scape-goatism" that seems to be prevalent at times on the DP. The Constitution allows nothing nor prevents anything and the Founders were well aware of that fact and warned us numerous times to be eternally vigilant in guarding our own Liberty. The Constitution is nothing more than a blueprint to provide the People with the tools necessary, if they will use them, to protect themselves against those who would usurp the limited authority delegated to government. The People have not only failed, but have neglected the knowledge necessary to secure their own rights and to resist, with the utmost fervor, any and all attempts by government to breach the contract that was to bind it solely by the consent of the People.
It was not the Constitutional Republic that was a failure, but those who allowed it to fail. Their was a Putsch in 1861 which brought about a consolidation of the Republic of Republics into a centralized-nationalized government, from there the Constitutional Republic was toast.
As Franklin warned: "We have given you a Republic, if you can keep it"
The Founders never had an illusion that the Constitution would or could restrain government. Read their quotes about the subject, like the quote of Adams below, it was left to the People to restrain government, by force if necessary. The Constitution was simply the framework provided to assist the People in that endeavor. You blame the Constitution, I place blame where it belongs.....on the People of subsequent generations who lost both the sight over their own government and the desire to educate themselves in such matters.
There are attempts to either place blame on the Constitution or the Constitutional Republic it founded, the fault is within ourselves as a People, not the document or the form of government that was created to assist us to protect ourselves. .
"A constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people, and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming freemen; a general emulation takes place, which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals to be general. That elevation of sentiment inspired by such a government, makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition which is inspired by it makes them sober, industrious, and frugal." Adams
"Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge; I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers." Adams
"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories." Jefferson
"I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." Jefferson
"On every unauthoritative exercise of power by the legislature must the people rise in rebellion or their silence be construed into a surrender of that power to them? If so, how many rebellions should we have had already?" Jefferson
"A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives." Madison
"As there is a degree of depravity in mankind which requires a certain degree of circumspection and distrust: So there are other qualities in human nature, which justify a certain portion of esteem and confidence. Republican government presupposes the existence of these qualities in a higher degree than any other form. Were the pictures which have been drawn by the political jealousy of some among us, faithful likenesses of the human character, the inference would be that there is not sufficient virtue among men for self-government; and that nothing less than the chains of despotism can restrain them from destroying and devouring one another." Madison
"No compact among men... can be pronounced everlasting and inviolable, and if I may so express myself, that no Wall of words, that no mound of parchment can be so formed as to stand against the sweeping torrent of boundless ambition on the one side, aided by the sapping current of corrupted morals on the other." Washington
http://www.1776solution.blogspot.com
“There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.”-Adams
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes
Republicae
The constitution is how they do it!
Did you ever notice countries that don't have constitutions, we attack or send our minions and then help them establish"constitutions".
It's a blueprint for control.
The constitution laid a foundation of absolute control of taxation and law making by a ruling class.
They didn't give us a d@mn republic! That's a lie! They enacted a forced system! ONLY THEY CONTROLED. How is it a republic, when the people have no say? They control taxation, law making, and just to make sure they closed the loop...They put the Supreme Court in place, to have the final interpretation of what rights the slaves have.
You first must understand you are in a forced system, to fight against it!
So the constitution does not
Republicae,
With all due respect, so the constitution does not allow confiscatory taxation? Regulation of commerce?
You say it even has limited delegated authority so how could it not allow some things and prevent others with said authority?
Yeah the constitution would work great in a vacuum where everyone did their duty and was honest and protected liberty and freedom. But then if everyone did that what need is there for a constitution? I think history has proven man cannot be trusted even with limited delegated authority period!
I did not consent either!
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End The Fat
59 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
paul I have 200 acres in a
paul I have 200 acres in a farm community.. so if i'm getting this right you can come and squat on it and I do not have the right to tell you to leave?
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson
I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
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Of course!
And if you didn't like it, then you could choose from any number of competing "justice courts", because there's no "monopoly" on the courts. But, there are "rules" and the rules are made up as you go along.
So, she could pick the court that will rule in her favor, and you can pick the court that will rule in your favor.
Isn't that cool?
Then, since neither you nor the courts are going to agree, then you'll each have to get your own "private security forces" to enforce what your decision was on the other party. Then you can have a little "private security war" between your 2 competing "security forces", and everything will be so cool that way.
And when one side wins, they can "coerce" you to do as they say according to how they decided, whether you agree to it or not. Because they won, and thus their decision stands. And you have to knuckle whether you like it or not.
Unless you can pay for a really bigger security force to start up the war again.
See how all this anarchy works?
It's the coolest.
You wrote all that tripe when my reply was already posted
I am trying to bring a serious discussion to liberty minded people. What is your point in that nonsense?
Anarchy means without a ruler, not without rules. And rules ought to be made at the most local level possible and encompass the fewest number of people possible, so they do not impinge on the rights of those who have no stake in the matter being ruled on. And I do NOT need a government to tell me when I need to cooperate with my neighbors, nor how to do it.
Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.
Rules?
Made by who?
What if I don't agree to your rules? I'm my own person.
Am I not to be allowed to be free?
What kind of an anarchy are you trying to run here?
Rules are for collectivists.
Next, I suppose you'll be telling me that there's some kind of "enforcement" to ensure these rules are followed?
What kind of coercion game are you trying to pull?
My brother-in-law Vinny runs the Civil Court on Anarchy Island.
'Vinny the Kneecapper', they used to call him in the old neighborhood. Heh heh heh. He's a standup guy. Used to be a Teamster, before he found out about the unique opportunities for settling legal disputes in our anarcho-cap experimental community.
You can find Vinny's Court Chambers between the Red Leg Casino and Madame Buxom's House of Trollops, down on Spooner Street.
Vinny accepts Mastercard and Visa, by the way.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Exactly.
The really puzzling thing is that "anarchists" like Hans Hoppe and Murray Rothbard are so keen on the idea of absolute monarchy.
"I believe the true significance of the Gold Commission is that the politicians and central bankers were so alarmed at such a thing that they made sure it was packed by an array of Keynesians and monetarists." (Ron Paul 1985)
KevTuma -- That was funny
I too agree that a Minarchist solution is the only answer as we "transition" out of Corporatism.
But - RP's minarchism is very close to Anarchism -- IF (if) you measure anarchism by level of taxation and travel -- which, is a good way to measure.
Slavery would be 100% taxation and 100% Travel Control and 0% Business Ideation Control (Entrepreneurialism)
Corporatism (by my estimates) would be 80-90% Taxation (direct and indirect) with 5% Travel Control and 5% Business Ideation Control.
RPs Minarchism (by my estimates - go here: Paul) would be 7-12% Taxation (only direct central and state sales tax - plus, minor import-export tax) with 0% Travel Control and 0% Business Ideation Control.
Just some thoughts ~ Kevin
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
We each have the right to try to live
If the best chances for my survival are to come squat on your land, I have the right to try. If the best chances for your survival are for you to come shoot me, you have the right to try. Now, that is put in a hypothetical extreme. The reality is, if I was that down and out, I would NOT squat on your land, but come to your door and ask if I could work around the place in exchange for a roof over my head in your barn. If you told me "No" I would go to your neighbor. In my effort to survive, it is to my advantage to try to develop symbiotic relationships with my fellow humans.
Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.
You can't just live your life. You must join a club.
Being a human means having lords and masters to bow to and serve. If you go off trying to be responsible for your own life, where does that leave the control freaks? C'mon don't they have a right to tell you what to do? So buck up and find a hero to worship, maybe one day he/she will allow you to serve them too. ;)
It's a tough, but inevitable philosophical leap. Awareness can take us past society sometimes.
Explore Orthodox Christianity
Can I worship my navel?
I think it is a secret gateway to an alternate universe... ;)
Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.