Ron Paul is a 88 - 93% Anarchist
Ron Paul has outlined what he'd cut - from central authority - what he'd push out to the States - and expressed his idealism all to such prolific extent that it should be easy to determine his level of Anarchism.
He wants to cut the dept of education (cut it 100%)
He wants to cut all "War On's" (cut it 100%)
He wants to close all foreign military bases (cut it 100%)
He wants all troops brought home (by 100%)
He wants the markets to handle currency - products - services (very low sales tax - ZERO: regulatiory advantages, bailouts, and subsidization)
He wants ZERO Corporate Tax
He wants the social issues of (abortion and gay marriage) pushed to the state-level
He wants welfare to be pushed out to the state-level
Small Central Authority to oversee the Navy
Small State Authority to oversee Army - Air Guard and Highways
If you cut out all those (100%) - you will find yourself only paying 7-12% sales tax -- and that's it - in total - no other taxes.
That means Ron Paul is a Minarchist -or- an 88-93% Anarchist
You anti-anarchist need to understand how close Ron Paul would take the country toward individual-anarchy (American Individualism) - my feeling is that in each of the remaining "gov't" areas (in RP's society) we would continue to allow the markets to handle more and more.
Octobox
So were our founding fathers!!!
Think about it. They were anarchists to the to the rule of King George so why is that a bad thing. Looking at how far distorted the government has become I think we should all be anarchists to one point or another. Call me an 80% Anarchist anytime!!!
Magicmann: Yes, you get it -- good for you.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Sorry mate
I don't buy your logic.
Ron Paul wants to restore America to a Constitutional Republic. Everything you mention would move the country in that direction. Think America in 1800 without slavery.
Anarchy by definition is zero government, national, state and local. You can't have a percentage of zero. It's a mathematical impossibility.
It's not logic, it's English.
Everyone should consider their direction when swimming upstream
-
Ahem...
then Congress, of which he has been a steadfast member, wouldn't exist in his anarchist world, no?
Egapele: Not if you follow his logic all the way out
Or if they did -- There job would be to ensure no one spends beyond income -and- to keep all the wealth in private coffers not public ones.
I mean if you ZERO out all the departments he'd want too and some states would follow suit -- then people would vote with their feet (if you understand that phrase) and soon all states would follow suit. At that point, in a very gradual process (probably taking 8 years) you'd be living very close to an anarchist society.
Think of it this way.
Slavery 100% Taxation
Corporatism 80-90% Taxation (where we are now)
RP's Minarchism 7-12% Taxation
Anarchism 0% Taxation
Three Types of Taxation: 1) Direct, 2) Indirect, and 3) Opportunity Loss
Direct Tax -- Income, Corporate, Accounting, Inventory, Property, any Licensure or Certification, Energy, Gas, Inheritence, Burial, Gift, Sin (et al)
Indirect Tax -- Essentially the Tax created by printing FRN's beyond revenue income and the Interest on the printing
Opportunity Loss Tax -- Whatever innovation or other uses of revenue that might have happened if there were no direct or indirect tax. This is the largest tax -- especially if one country is wiser in regard to the first two. Whole generations can suffer owing to losses here.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Before you guys post read the thread -- It's clear what's being
said here.
If I said 80% of X -- You'd know I meant "not all of 'x,'" correct?
So, if I say 80% of anarchism you'd understand that right? Anarcho-capitalism - individual-anarchism - economic-individualism - thus, American Individualism.
Slavery is 100% Taxation
Anarchy is 0% Taxation
RP's Minarchy is 7-12% Taxation
Economic-Fascism (what RP call's Corporatism) is 80-90% Taxation
Why are you guys so confused -- is it the Greek root words.
I mean I let this thread die and you guys keep bringing it back up, hahahaha.
If Michael asks me to delete it I will -- No problem.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Re-post from below for Mr. OctoBox
* reply
Name calling ? ? ?
On July 8th, 2009 beesting says:
Sir, if you are the linguist you claim to be, you would see that I gave you a high complement in that post..
....but before I go on I must ask are you posting here to promote the image of Congressman Ron Paul or are you here to try to destroy his image?
If you are here to destroy his image I suggest you re-read Michael Nystrom's up-dated rules for posting,,,he owns this site:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
May I request links to your claims of what Ron Paul said or didn't say, otherwise it's all based on your distorted hear say.
Rand Paul's real name is Randal:
http://www.answers.com/to...
{ snip } Randal "Rand" Paul (born January 7, 1963) is an American eye surgeon and political activist. He is the third child of Republican U.S. Congressman Ron Paul of Texas {end snip}
Possibly you are adding quite a bit of your own interpretations to what you, and you alone feel, makes Congressman Paul what he is.
I agree with what you wrote here:
{snip} Ron Paul is a self-avowed Individualist.{unsnip}
However I disagree on your interpretation of what individualist means.
In my opinion, an individualist is someone who thinks for himself makes his/her own decisions and has nothing to do with anarchy. Dr. Paul is not bought off by lobbyists as many other legislators are. He studies all proposed congressional bills to see if they confirm to constitutional guidelines. { A far far cry from anarchy }
I have talked to many Americans on the street and they may have been brainwashed by the news media, but if the word anarchy is brought up in a pleasant conversation,,,,the image of rock throwing, bottle throwing rioters comes to mind.
Not exactly the image that would help Dr. Paul in his political career.
Dr. Paul has stated many times that the purpose of any government is to protect "Property" rights. For individual Americans the bill of rights does that. When the constitution is destroyed we all become property.
I sincerely hope you sir, are on the side of Ron Paul with the rest of his supporters, in his fight to protect, enforce, and prolong the life of the U.S. Constitution. Thank you.
beesting
Google: "Economic-Individualism" and "Individualist anarchism"
and on that wiki you'll find Anarcho-Capitalism and a write up on Murray Rothbard.
You must be flat out against most of the Mises Institutes position papers and Murray Rothbard.
They are Anarcho-Capitalist (avowed). That is to say Anarchist-Capitalism.
Now Ron and myself lean more towards Minarchism (which the Constitutional Republic is a "Minarchist" proposition) and lean more towards Mises rather than Rothbard; neverless he is an eminent fellow and has said he believes and follows the principles of Austrian Economics (which as it is today is an Anarcho-Capitalist philosophy).
Minarchism -- Min-Archy -- Min-Archos -- "minimal authority"
Why is it hard to see what I'm saying.
If I say you have 80% of "X" -- then you know you don't have 100% of "X"
Minarchism is almost or near Anarchism
Slavery is 100% Taxation
Anarchism is 0% Taxation
RP's Minarchism is 7-12% Taxation (when fully employed)
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Beestings: I don't think his nickname is a coincidence, do you?
Given Ron Paul's strong early influence by Ayn Rand?
#1 -- There's no need to question my support of Ron Paul to gather emotional briquettes for your argument. Leave out name calling and labeling, it's juvenile.
#2 -- At the end of your post you said Anata wa baka des, which in Japanese means "you are an idiot."
#3 -- On Jay Leno Ron Paul said, "Well, I lean towards a flat tax but I wanna make it real flat, like zero." -- Regarding "income tax" -- Corporations pay "income tax" too and then the cost of it is rolled into their pricing schemas; which comes out of our income. Corporation Tax is a hidden Income Tax.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LZyHoAPL3M
#4 -- From 1868 and 1979 there was no "real" Dept of Education -- Until Carter broke the roof off of Welfare and Education. This does not mean he wants to eliminate "education." He wants to privatize it or at the very least give it back to the States. When I wrote what RP wants to eliminate as President I thought it would be clear "to remove/eliminate from Federal Jurisdiction."
#5 -- Dept of Education and Dept of Agriculture
http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-05-20/ron-paul-vs-ed-schultz-end...
#6 -- He said he wouldn't attack domestic programs, "until, we can do without them" -- Which in most circumstances is imediate.
You are arguing semantics and I'm not going to do all the research for you to learn about anarchism, minarchism, and how / when they relate to the Constitution.
His argument is to move toward market-anarchy in the long-term; but the departments and spending he'd cut is far closer to an anti-authority position then is it towards a Corporatist Position (Economic-Fascism).
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Ron Paul said that he supports anarchy
Ron Paul was asked in this video at 3:55:
"What do you say to people who advocate self-government, rather than a return to the Constitution?"
Ron Paul: "Fine, I think that's really what my goal is."
Then he continues to talk about his support of libertarians who want to opt out of government.
Twisted information !
Unless you can give me an audio or written link, I'll tell you what I heard.
Ron Paul was commenting about the Governor of Texas mentioning the state of Texas seceding from the present U.S. Government and forming it's own country.
When Ron Paul the Texas Congressman was asked about his opinion concerning Texas secession he replied," I believe in peaceful civil disobedience as written in the first Amendment." 'Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of the people to petition the government for a redress of grievances.'
How a statement like that can be taken as anarchy is beyond me.
Later it was pointed out that Martin Luther King and Ghandi had changed history by joining in civil disobedience movements.
beesting
Listen again
Listen again at 3 minutes 55 seconds.
Ron Paul says that his goal is to allow people to opt out of government.
The question was "What do you say to people who advocate self-government, rather than a return to the Constitution?"
Ron Paul responds: "Fine, I think that's really what my goal is."
Beesting: Let me hold your hand and walk you through this
This sums up what I was saying and it's my fault that you and maybe one or two others didn't get it.
If I say to you -- I have 80% of X -- what does that mean? Does it mean I have 100% of X or does it mean a fraction of "X" as a whole?
88-93% Anarchism -- Does not mean 100% Anarchy.
Anarchy is 0% Taxation
Slavery is 100% Taxation
RP's Minarchism is 7-12% Taxation (minimal authority or minimal gov't)
Corporatism (as Ron Paul calls it) or "Economic Fascism" is 80-90% Taxation
Now you get back to me on that, smile.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Octobox, you were close but no prize.
Baka means foolish in Japanese, and you are foolish in my opinion for including anarchy { No government at all } in any Ron Paul discussion.
I get your point but strongly dis-agree !
Why?
If I have 1% of my body growing a cancer, am I 99% cancer free, or do I have cancer?
If an apple is 10% rotten is it a good apple or a spoiled apple?
If a person is dishonest only 10% of the time would you consider him an honest person or dishonest?
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
Including anarchy in describing Ron Paul is way off base, in my opinion, as he's spent about 40 years of his life, including about 5 in the military, defending a piece of paper that outlines a type of government that is supposed to be run of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Why don't you spend your time digging up dirt on the other 534 federal politicians that are not as patriotic as Dr. Paul.
If you continue what I consider an attack on Ron Paul I will report you to a Mod, and try to get you banished. Let them decide if this is an appropriate subject to discuss on a Ron Paul promotional site !!
beesting
Beesting: WOW -- Now you are trying to get me "banished"
Notice how I don't name call you or question your respect or loyalty to Ron Paul?
Do you think Michael is un-aware of my posts -- If he approached me about it I'd back off; but I'm the chisel to his sand-paper - as far as trying to turn this site back to it's original purpose. The study of Austrian Economics (which Ron Paul has said numerous times he's a student of) and to get off the Truther - Birther - ChemTrail - FEMA Camp rolling rants that took over around 9 to 10 months ago. Not that these things are not important -- they are. But Ron Paul does not support any of these positions, so it goes against the posting guidelines.
I will never have you "banished" -- But, I'm glad you have that type of clout and would exercise it. It shows you do not understand American-Individualism at all -- which is why you do not understand Anarchy (No Authority -- "banishing" friendly debate is a collectivist philosophy).
Ron Paul is a gentleman and I'm trying to become a gentleman; I recommend you do the same (or a gentlewoman if it applies).
I explained this already - I'm trying to find a type of logic that will get through.
If you have 80% of "X" -- You understand you don't have 100% of "X" -- right? It's basic math.
The cancer analogy is not applicable -- it's apples and oranges.
Ron Paul is a senior fellow at Mises Institute -- Nearly all of the scholars at Mises are Rothbardians; which means Anarcho-Capitalists (Anarchist-Capitalists).
RP is more of a Misesean Scholar (as am I) -- I believe that before we can get into any type of 100% Anarchy (Individualism) then we need to "transition" through Minarchy (Min-Archos or Minimal Authority).
Slavery 100% Taxation
Corporatist 80-90% Taxation (where we are now)
Minarchism 7-12% Taxation (or 88-93% Anarchism)
Anarchism 0% Taxation
The point of the thread was to show that being "close" to Anarchy is better than being far far away from it.
Do you understand now?
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I don't think you understand.
All we have to do is have someone that has ties to mainstream media outlets, read this nonsense, agree with you, run it as an important revelation, in a mainstream news outlet, and you've destroyed the reputation of the only person in Congress that 2.2 million supporters voted for in the last presidential primary election. Wouldn't you be proud of yourself?
Here is the latest Ron Paul video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnx6a5mlM9M#t=4m21s
Ron Paul is my President !
beesting
Beesting: Any "credible" newspaper that quoted "octobox"
in an attempt to discredit a man loved by 2.2M would find their inboxes flooded with hate letters.
Also -- I wish you'd stop implying that I'm not loyal to Ron Paul -- This thread is a compliment to the man not a discredit.
Seriously only you and a few others (a small few -- like 2 or 3) see it this way.
It is because you lack basic understanding of Misesean Economics -- You do not know any of the Misesean Scholars; nor have you read all of Ron Paul's position papers at Mises Institute.
I would love to "educate" you, but you are too confrontational, emotional, and contrarian.
I'm not labeling you or name-calling; why can't you learn civil-discourse.
If you try a little bit you'll see I'm very warm and respectful -- quick to forgive.
I like your fire!!
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
I'm really not very interested in terminology.
I'm only a simple voter and Ron Paul supporter who has a special interest in sound money. Lets put it this way, terminology does not pay my bills and as far as civil discourse except for calling you foolish in a different language, I don't think I've said anything that would be against Mr. Nystrom's rules.
If you support Ron Paul why don't you use your good brain to figure out new and innovative ways to support him, instead of defending what I feel is a very mis-leading statement.
Tofa soifua ! { Good bye }
beesting
Beesting: Live long and Prosper
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
Anarchy isn't really the right word here...
I know what you are trying to say, but that word is seen by most as meaning no government which is NOT what Ron Paul is about.
After all, Dr. Paul IS part of government himself, although I see Representatives as the most important and legitimate branch of government because they ARE representing we the people. (OR THAT'S THE IDEA ANYWAY).
All Ron Paul is saying is that the PROPER ROLE of government as put forth by our founders is not being followed today.
Look at all the retarded and immoral government programs which are NOWHERE NEAR constitutional.
The founders would turn over in their graves.
"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul
Well said!
The Senate was once chosen by a state by state process, and not by popular vote, because the Founding Fathers did not trust democracy to protect individual rights...the bigger the democracy, the larger the 'mob rule' became, and more likely the rights of the individual would be trampled for the 'common good'.
------
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make..
Libera me......from this dark dream, to the life-stream! --Leslie Phillips
What's next after End the Fed? Repeal the XVI and XVII Amendments!
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
Pawnstorm: Yes you are correct
Anarchy means No Authority
However, in a free-society temporary / voluntary gov't will form to solve problems.
This post was written a while back during a DP debate regarding Anarchy and Minarchism vs Constitutionalism.
I wanted to point out how close to Anarchy RP is.
We pay 80-90% Tax (direct and indirect)
Slavery is 100% Tax
Anarchy is 0% Tax
Minarchy is 7-12% Tax
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
i like the idea of ZERO
i like the idea of ZERO government intruding in my life, in areas like education, family, drivers license, taxes. and let local people solve thier own problem, some people have a problem with this, it means you would be responsible for your own decisions...good or bad.
He just demands the
rule of law apply to government.
Defend Liberty!
What's with all this "anarchy" crap?!?!
Do you guys have even the slightest clue about public relations?
To the public at large, you might as well be calling Ron Paul "88-93% Pedophile" or "88-93% Nazi"!
We get it.
You don't like government.
How about this, once we have restored a constitutional republic in the USA, we can debate about whether we want to dismantle even MORE of the government.
In the meantime, go post on a website dedicated to destroying "Constitutional government in the United States of America".
******************************
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.
Natural Law and Natural Rights
http://jim.com/rights.html
******************************
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
public relation, shmublik relashuns
The first thing should be to get people to start doing their own due diligence.
You educate people. If they don't understand the issues and terms well, then everyone's in the same boat they already are. If you feel like everyone just needs to "feel good" about what they are reading, well, that's why society is in this mess to begin with.
DYODD: do your own due diligence
-
Bullshit post. let's digg it
What a stupid headline. If RON PAUL would have been president and not the Obama puppy, there would be a chance to withhold the collapse of this country.
oliver robert ike
OliverRobert: You didn't read the whole thread or English
is not your first language.
It is very clear what I'm saying.
#1 Anarchy does not mean Chaos -- Not from the original Greek
#2 Everything I said RP wants to eliminate you can go and view on video or read his position papers at Mises.org.
#3 He said he'd eliminate everything save Military Oversight, Highways, and Bridges.
If he got rid of the later it would be 100% An-Archy (An-Archos or "No Authority" or "Self-Rule).
I judge Anarchy by one definition there's 0% taxation (not direct or indirect)
RP's Minarchy (Min-Archos or "Minimal Authority") requires (by my estimation) around 7 - 12% direct tax (no hidden taxes).
Thus he's "nearly" an An-Archist -- 88-93% so.
Octobox
*&^ Constitution --- Constitutional Rationality
RON PAUL IS CORRECT AND WOULD ALSO CUT...
Nationall Endowment for the Arts (who just got $50,000,000 from the stimulus package),
FEMA,
Dept of Energy,
IRS,
National Wild Horse and Burro Program,
Federally Funded Abortions,
etc, etc, etc
"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul