God vs. Evolution
Okay, I know there have been forum posts about Evolution vs. Creationism on here before, but I figured I would like to open this door again. The reason being there is a forum post asking what Bible version people think is the best. I noticed on that post that many people are debating the validity of God.
Seeing as how that forum post is now attacking God, or defending him and not about the original content anymore, I figured I would make a new thread so people could talk about this without over taking that persons original question.
I also realize that there has been a previous forum post about this, but it has been over a year ago, and it would take days to read all the posts there. Here is the link in case you wanted to read it http://www.dailypaul.com/node/54109
So here is what it boils down to in my book. I am a Christian, and I know many do not agree with me. I am non denominational which means I only believe in what God says, and not some priest, or religion. I am not religious, as I feel religion to be very dangerous, and it can in fact lead to some very serious bondage, and control. This however is simply my opinion, and I cannot state it as fact. Of course, one persons definition of religion may be different than my own, so they may still call me religious, but in my definition, I am not....I am a man of faith.
What I have been reading on dailypaul is a lot of posts about God, Jesus, the Bible, etc... I know that there are two theories out there, there is one, which is that a higher power/ intelligent designer created everything, or that nature did all of this on it's own, through evolution.
So I want you all to use this forum post to use as a place to discuss this issue. I want to see and hear the facts, and or beliefs of both sides. My goal is to help people see that there is in no way possible to have it both ways, and that only one way is correct. For it says in the Bible that God created, but in every high school text book, it says that nature created and evolved. I also realize that there are some who feel both happened in harmony through God, though this does contradict the bible itself, and if there is error in Gods word, then it is all error. So I personally do not believe that both happened...again, that is only my opinion, and I do not know everything.
So, my goal as a Christian is to help people see the truth, and to help them find Jesus, as he is the only way to Heaven (my belief). If I do not care, and love you all, and try to help you, then I am not doing what God has asked of us. We all have free will according to the Bible, so that makes us accountable for what we do and don't do.
What do you think? Do you think God created everything? Do you think nature somehow created itself, and evolved? Do you think it was a mix of the two? If God created it, then he must be real, and we are fools not to listen to his word. If evolution is true, then does anything really matter, and what makes things right, and some things wrong?
I realize this is a tough and sensitive subject, so if you get offended by the views of evolution, Christianity, or other religious ideas, please stop here. If you want to express your belief, and share facts...please comment away. I know there will be some tough words, but this needs to be addressed. If nothing else, it may just show us how diverse we are, and it may help us understand, and love each other for who we are not what we believe. So to all you out there, remember we do not all have to agree, on this subject, but we do need to get to know each other, and respect their ideas, so try to be kind!
One more thing, please try to remain in the subject of creation vs. evolution. I know many people question other parts of the bible, and if you have those questions, please make a new thread for those questions. I want to get to the bottom of this, and where better than the beginning. So if it pertains to this topic, please post, if not...ask somewhere else, or through private message.
God bless you all!!!
I've started writing the
I've started writing the following, mostly for my son's benefit, thought I'd go ahead and post it here. Its FAR from being finished, nor have I really proof read or defined it yet, its just started...
From reading studies of early man, we know that Homo Sapiens have had 2 basic lifestyles, Hunter-Gatherer and Agriculturalist. And with the 2 lifestyles, 2 types of Spiritual beliefs, Earth “worship” and Sun worship. And with these 2 lifestyles, also 2 types of Government. One was a tribal type of people with very little government, rarely any kind of written law but more of simply learned understanding of right and wrong. Prosecution of a wrong would generally be carried out by the tribe as a whole and under severe infractions of the tribes “law” banishment from the tribe might be seen. Generally these “crimes” were only things that in some way damaged others, or the tribe as a whole. While arguments always arise in ANY society, if you were of the nature to pick up a rock and smash another’s head in over a squabble, you might likely find the whole tribe banishing you from their presence, and from the security of the tribe. But there would unlikely be any written law in this type of society, it would be more likely that you grew up knowing right from wrong and THAT is what guided you in the “Law”. The Law was written in your heart and mind, not on paper. In another system, Men have a leader, and the Leader would decide what the Laws were, probably write them down, and likely change them often. There are MANY different variations of this type of Law, sometimes with ONE Sovereign, sometimes with a group of people making up the Sovereign. These 2 types of Law we have names for today, Natural Law and Civil Law. Before any begin to argue about the Natural Law, yes, it has incorporated in some manners Sovereigns over other men. But at its heart is that men have the right to consent to this rule over them and the right to throw it off if it becomes offensive, so in truth it is the individuals choice to be government or not be governed. We should see then that all Law is Natural Law combined with Consent to be or not to be governed. If we live under Civil Law, it is because we have CONSENTED to be ruled in this fashion.
Let’s take a brief look at the 2 Spiritual aspects of the 2 basic lifestyles.
1) Hunter Gatherer- Believes not really in God(s) but in Spirits. The Moon Spirit, the Great Sun Spirit, the Wolf Spirit, the Tree Spirit…virtually everything upon the Earth has a spirit, evil spirits and good spirits, and some both good and evil. This is basically what we find in the American Indians, but variations upon this are found in virtually all hunter gatherer type societies. They depend upon the Earth to provide for them, and as a result they have no real “Deities”. But I do believe it is far to say that if we lumped ALL of these spirits together that we could say that THAT is their God. And if we were to give this “God” a name, it would be “Nature” (or if we wanted to give it a REAL name, it would be something like Mother Earth). And Nature provided for them, each day they would venture out onto the Earth and find ALL that was needed to survive. Common Sense and a little studying tells us that the Males would likely do all of the hunting and processing of the kill, and the Females would do the gathering. But it was Nature that provided all of their needs, and rewarded or punished them. And the name of their “god” would be “NATURE”.
2) Agriculturalist- Believes in deity(ies). The Agriculturalist plants his roots, that is he begins to build permanent settlements. Although there may still be some hunting and gathering done in the first stages of the Agriculturalist, he slowly becomes more and more dependant upon working the land. Today agriculture is to the point that even the animals we use for food are fed by what we grow, crops. But as Men at first turned to agriculture they begin to turn from Nature, and toward the Sun. They become more away that the Sun is the source of all life. They begin to see the Sun as a God, a God that tells them when to plant, when to harvest. As this Great Sun Spirit becomes more and more important, the other Spirits become less and less important. Finally in time, we see the Sun become the ONLY God, and the other “spirits” become more like servants to the Sun. The Sun as God creates the first ideas of God up above, in the Heavens. A mystical God, and all powerful. And very important to this discussion is that the Rulers over Men are usually the ones whom are appointed by the Sun, and have the “power” to talk to God. (as time goes on, the Calendar is invented and the importance of the Sun diminishes. But the “religion” of Sun worship does NOT die, it morphs into basically the same false religion but other false gods replace the Sun. And “saints” or other similarities replace the Servants of the Sun)
“The first farmer was the first man, and all historic nobility rests on possession and use of land." Ralph Waldo Emerson
In the beginning, Humans lived in a place such as was a garden. Humans were created in the image of NATURE, and as such, were a part of nature just as were all other animals a part of nature created in the image of NATURE.. As a part of nature, NATURE provides for all of their needs, punishes and rewards them. One day female is out gathering, maybe it is naturally growing wheat that she has been gathering from the same locations for a while, she discovers something. On this trail that she has been traveling there is wheat beginning to grow where none had grown before. And it is only growing directly around the trail whereas she knows that wheat usually grows in larger fields. She thinks to herself, “could it be that these little pieces fall off and from them is how the wheat grows?” And she tries an experiment, putting a few grains of wheat into the ground. After a few days she discovers that it is true that these pieces are from where the wheat is born. And she runs to tell Male of her discovery. But Male tells her that they cannot do this, as NATURE will be angry and that this will cause Male and Female to die. But a little voice inside of them tells them that this is not true, that they can be just like NATURE with this knowledge. And so they partake of this knowledge, which is both good knowledge and, as they will discover, is also evil. And on that day the First Man, the first Farmer walked upon the Earth, and the Male hunter gatherer died. And NATURE took them First Man and the First Woman out of the Garden, and no longer would NATURE provide for them. From that day on they would work the soil for their needs, they would eat bread. But as Man and Woman departed the Garden, NATURE clothed them with his Authority. And they were then under NO other Authority, save the Authority of NATURE. And as time passed, the man and woman would have a child, and another. And one of these would be a caretaker of NATURE’s animals, the other an Agriculturalist. When the one brought to NATURE an animal of nature, NATURE was pleased. When one brought to NATURE the fruits of Agriculture, NATURE was not happy. And then the Agriculturalist KILLED OFF THE HUNTER GATHERER, which was his brother.
(Does the story sound familiar yet?)
What is evil about this forbidden knowledge, agriculture? At its very root, I’d say nothing is evil about it. It is what RESULTS from agriculture that becomes its evil. It is first off, the FIRST time that human becomes CREATOR, just as NATURE is Creator. And this Creation has not ceased throughout history. Today Man has gone from putting a seed in the ground and Creating food, to creating actual life in the Laboratory. Man has become the one that punishes and rewards. The Human died and Man lives in his place, and he has become like the Gods, as a result of the knowledge of Agriculture, the knowledge of Good and Evil.
The first requirement for Permanent Civilization is Agriculture. From permanent civilization government is born. And from government comes Men’s Authority over Men is born. And from Men’s Authority over Men tyranny is born. And thus from Agriculture evil comes into being. But this is not to say that Agriculture is ONLY evil, it is not. It is good AND it is evil. It is good when we wear the Authority given to Man by NATURE, it is evil when we trade our garments for those given by Men.
The Bible IS a book about Evolution, the SOCIETAL evolution of Homo Sapien, the Animal, into Homo Sapien the Man.
(As I would continue to write this it would include the meaning in the Bible of being naked, which is to be "without Authority", just as is the "Emperor has no clothes" because he gave his Authority to the Taylor. It would continue through to the point were NATURE tells Abraham to build an Alter, made out of "Adahma" (spelling?) which is "the red clay". In the Hebrew text we find that Adam was made from Adahma, the red clay, not from the dust of the earth. But NATURE is clearly telling Abraham to build an Alter, and the stones he is to use are Men. There shall be no steps leading up to the Altar, meaning there shall be no Heirarchy leading up to the top. But that it shall be level. It adds that if there be steps, that when one goes up the altar that your nakedness will be seen. What this is telling us is that we should not give our sacrifice (CHARITY, taxes, tithes, offering, ect...) to men of heirarchy. For if we do, we lose our the Authority given when NATURE clothed Adam and Eve, the Authority of NATURE. So we are not to give to men of a heirarchy, but to give to our brothers who are on the same level as we are, our equals. Lest we lose our Authority. Socialism has existed for 1000's of years before the WORD socialism, and the Bible warns us that we will become ensnared, trapped, if we dine with Kings and be tempted by their "dainty meats", benefits from Rulers. "What should have been for your welfare becomes a snare")
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
This matters why?
Freedom to educate your children I can support. Your religion is not mine, and I do not want my tax money being spent to promote any religion. Oh, that's right... I don't want my tax money spent to teach anyone anything...
Any post with a title of this "versus" that seems like it is trying to start a fight. How about this: God AND evolution: We can all believe what we want, as long as we respect each other's right to be wrong.
I believe I was placed under a cabbage leaf by the tooth fairy, then a unicorn picked me up and carried me to my mother. Why do you care? I have not asked you to believe it, and if you were teaching your own children, you would have no worries about my "creation" theory being taught to your kid.
Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.
BULLSHIT!!!
IT WAS THE STORK!!! Everybody knows that. JESUS, where did you go to school???
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
I find this topic an
I find this topic an interesting point of discussion, and for the most part appreciated your attempt to establish a non biased environment where ideas could flow freely without out a flame war erupting. But in light of your subsequent *update* your true intentions are showing.
It seems you are more interested in promoting your point of view rather aggressively (as valid as it may be) than actually inviting a discussion of what others here believe. Despite your updated reason for this thread being freedom related and my personal interest in what people here believe I think this will inevitably result in an extremely off topic flame war.
Perhaps a new thread about what should or shouldn't be taught in schools would be more appropriate topic since that's what your stated goal is.
But I'm no mod, so whatever.
peace
You have a solid and valid point!
I am going to take your advice, and separate the two posts. I debated it to myself, before I wrote it, so I am glad someone agrees, HAHAHA. Anyway, I appreciate your opinion!
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22)
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:22)
The religious people need to
The religious people need to stop "changing" their views to support their fantasy...It was never "intelligent design" until evolution came into the picture...Maybe it's intelligent desing..maybe the Earth is more than 6,000 years old..." Don't take the book so literally." What a joke....
And it's great to see that these threads always arise...
http://www.lp.org/
http://mises.org/
Evolution has been around about as long
the Bible
You claim is false
Ok..Natural Selection..is
Ok..Natural Selection..is that better? Fuck...
http://www.lp.org/
http://mises.org/
The grass is mowed. Did I do it or was it the lawn mower?
Or did I use the lawn mower to carry out my purposes?
I believe God and evolution are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
It's a false choice that often spurs a lot of needless controversy and divisiveness.
No one knows God's exact modus operandi. The Bible gives us very little detail about the creation other than the very basics, that God indeed made it. However, the Bible goes as far to say that He did it in a particular order, which I find interesting. Why not all at once? Why in an order? Did that order happen to be evolution? Who's to say that he didn't use an evolutionary process to bring humans into present form, created in his likeness? God often uses small means to bring about marvelous works.
Genesis says 2 things that leave evolution open as a possibility. First, plants and animals were created before man. Think about that.
Second, man was created from the dust of the earth. Think about that.
Did God take a handful of dirt and BAM we have Adam, or was there process involved? Again no one really knows how God did it but that doesn't mean evolution is ruled out. Gen 2:6-7 may give us some clues:
"6. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
This passage doesn't say how long that took. God could have caused the dust to get wet, combined it with other elements to form an ooze, set on bake for a couple million years (or thousand years, or a day, God's time is different than ours, again no one really knows and the Bible doesn't explicitly say) The ooze could have mixed until primitive DNA was formed. Life forms would begin to slowly evolve into plants and animals, following the biblical record, until some evolved (read created over time) into the image and likeness of God as planned. Ding! God takes Adam and Eve out of the evolutionary oven and breathes the breath of life into them and they became living souls.
This soul is what sets us apart from every other species. It gives us our reasoning and faculties, personalities and awareness. Why are we so different from all other life, even those closest to us like chimps and apes? I would argue that it is because of the soul. I know this begs the question of whether other lifeforms have souls or whether all dogs go to heaven and what not, but that's another conversation. I speculate that all life has a portion of God's spirit animating them. The human soul is different however in that each soul is actually a spiritual son or daughter God. This is my belief according to how I understand the Bible. I know others may disagree.
All in all I'm not entirely convinced of evolution as a theory, but yes I do believe it as a possibility, biblically, scientifically and diagonally. God may very well have used some form of evolution to create man.
I can see no evident way of proving or disproving that but the posibility of it being the case IS there. I would also argue that the Bible does not refute the possibility of evolution. It only refutes the idea that God didn't do it. Same goes for the big bang theory. If it happened God caused it, stars flew out, things settled down, the earth was void and without form, God formed it, let there be light etc. all biblically kosher imho)
If evolution is the case why isn't it mentioned in the Bible? This was probably wisdom in my opinion as I'm sure the concept of DNA and evolutionary processes would have gone over the heads of most people for thousands of years up until recently. Can you imagine?
Genesis chapter 1
verse 1 "And let A combine with T"
verse 2 "And C combine with G"
verse 3 "And G combine with A"
verse 4 "and A combi....etc"
verse 55,839,452,660,683 "Behold a horsie!"
What???
Keeping it simple is one of the Bibles great strengths. God reserves the deeper stuff to be taught through the spirit by those with ears to hear.
The way I look at it, truth is truth whether spiritual or scientific, what ever is found to be the truth that's how God did it. If somehow Evolution is proven without a doubt, it doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means that's how God created the world. Those who get overly dogmatic about it claiming the Bible refutes evolution paint themselves into a corner like the catholic church did with Galileo over whether the the sun revolves around the earth or not. Science need not be feared. Science can only verify the truth of God not refute it. Fear not and know that God is.
Fortune Favors the
Fortune Favors the Bold
"Genesis chapter 1
verse 1 "And let A combine with T"
verse 2 "And C combine with G"
verse 3 "And G combine with A"
verse 4 "and A combi....etc"
verse 55,839,452,660,683 "Behold a horsie!"
What???"
Actually, this kind of reminds me of the "begots"
Fortune Favors the Bold
“Does a computer networking expert have something new and impor
by Perry Marshall
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
I’m author of the book Industrial Ethernet published by ISA, now in its 2 nd edition, and have written many dozens of magazine articles and white papers on computer networks. Now you may ask, what do computers have to do with DNA and all those endless arguments about intelligent design? Actually, a lot.
Just like all those 1’s and 0’s that make our modern world go ‘round, DNA is also a digital communication system. All the same formulas and communication theory that created our modern digital age apply to DNA too. In fact many methods that are commonplace in the information technology field have been adapted and applied to genetics research and the Human Genome Project.
Executive Summary:
Part 1: Language, Information, and the Origin of DNA (Read Transcript)
Most arguments about evolution and intelligent design offer only anecdotal evidence and are inherently incapable of actually proving anything. We must get better evidence in order to get to the bottom of this! Fortunately, the science of modern communications easily provides us with the tools we need to get answers. Although the details are complex, the concepts are easily grasped by anyone with a high school education.
Patterns occur naturally - no help required from a 'designer'. Many patterns occur in nature without the help of a designer – snowflakes, tornados, hurricanes, sand dunes, stalactites, rivers and ocean waves. These patterns are the natural result of what scientists categorize as chaos and fractals. These things are well-understood and we experience them every day.
Codes, however, do not occur without a designer. Examples of symbolic codes include music, blueprints, languages like English and Chinese, computer programs, and yes, DNA. The essential distinction is the difference between a pattern and a code. Chaos can produce patterns, but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols. Codes and symbols store information, which is not a property of matter and energy alone. Information itself is a separate entity on par with matter and energy.
Proof that DNA was designed by a mind: (1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism. (2) All codes we know the origin of are created by a conscious mind. (3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind, and language and information are proof of the action of a Superintelligence.
We can explore five possible conclusions:
1) Humans designed DNA
2) Aliens designed DNA
3) DNA occurred randomly and spontaneously
4) There must be some undiscovered law of physics that creates information
5) DNA was Designed by a Superintelligence, i.e. God.
(1) requires time travel or infinite generations of humans. (2) could well be true but only pushes the question back in time. (3) may be a remote possibility, but it's not a scientific explanation in that it doesn't refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It's nothing more than an appeal to luck . (4) could be true but no one can form a testable hypothesis until someone observes a naturally occurring code. So the only systematic explanation that remains is (5) a theological one.
To the extent that scientific reasoning can prove anything, DNA is proof of a designer.
Part 2: A Christian and an Atheist Go the Zoo (Read Transcript)
Antelope “Did the Antelope evolve into the Giraffe?” According to Darwinian evolution, the necessities of the environment, random mutation and natural selection working together caused the antelope to grow a longer neck and become a giraffe. OK, then what does communication theory say about that hypothesis?
Natural Selection is perfectly valid and has been proven time and time again. But most people will be very surprised to discover that no one has ever actually demonstrated that random mutation can create new information. Information theory shows us why this is so: In communication systems, Random Mutation is exactly the same as noise, and noise always destroys the signal, never enhances it.
Snowy TV In communication systems this is called information entropy, and the formula for information entropy is exactly the same as thermodynamic entropy. Once lost, the information can never be recovered, much less enhanced. Thus we can be 100% certain that random mutation is not the source of biodiversity. A tool is provided, www.RandomMutation.com, that allows you to experiment and see for yourself that random mutation always destroys information, never enhances it.
Fruit Fly This observation is also confirmed biologically by Theodosius Dobzhansky's fruit fly radiation experiments, Goldschmidt's gypsy moth experiments, and others. Decades of research were conducted in the early 20 th century, bombarding fruit flies and moths with radiation in hope of mutating their DNA and producing improved creatures. These experiments were a total failure – there were no observed improvements – only weak, sickly, deformed fruit flies. Giraffes may have evolved from antelopes - I never said that couldn't happen, and I remain open to the possibility that it did. But it certainly wasn't because of Random Mutation!
We have proof that life on planet earth was designed by a mind - and that if life did evolve, the capacity to evolve had to be designed in. The word “Evolution” in the English language always refers to an intelligent process (in business, society, technology etc.) and the only usage in which it allegedly doesn't is naturalistic Darwinian evolution. But communication theory shows us that Evolution by Random Process is a hypothesis without proof.
Finally this presentation concludes with a brief observation: There is an interesting correspondence between Judeo-Christian theology and modern information theory, the statement words and language are the essence of creation: “And God said… In the beginning was the WORD;” that the worlds were spoken into existence.
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
Very well put, I
Very well put, I believe..
*They have to do it LEGALLY
Good people make the difference, you-no
Oh great now it's intelligent design :(
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Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
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Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
It's just all a semantic misunderstanding...
Yes, God is intelligent, and he did design everything. No problem, just the words of man get in the way.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
it is my postiton
that the Bible is the ultimate vehicle for earthly and eternal liberty.
It stands for personal ownership and consequence.
It stands against coercive techniques.
Consider Adam and Eve. God knew their choice. He know the out come of their choice would lead to every act ever committed in nature. Yet he allowed man to make that choice with informed consent about the consequences. If the Church just understood this foundational principle.
who documented Adam and Eve ?
There was no one there man , Use your head ! Adam and eve to me is the silliest possible story of the bible. According to it these two incestuous people created everyone ? cain and able and then you only had the mother to procreate with ? and these people who had no education at all managed to carry a story to today ?
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Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
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Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
Sentinel
please read Gen 5:4:
And after he (Adam) brought forth Sheth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years. And he brought forth sons and daughters.
Adam had daughters for his sons to marry.
before you disagree with his lifespan, please understand that the climate and air pressure was probably different back then- reptiles grew much larger (called dinosaurs or dragons in modern langauge), trees (which are now fossils) were much larger, etc.
"Adam had daughters for his sons to marry."
Father and daughters ...
Mother and sons ...
Daughters and sons ....
no matter how you slice it, it's still incest.
It is a secret truth
The CIA is not letting you in on.
I have access to secret information.
The NWO does not want you to beleive in Jesus so they made up a story about a guy who sails on boat named after a cute dog breed to convince people God does not exist.
Then they have their secret operatives here in the US to convince make movies like Zeitgeist.
A grade schooler could come up with a better scam...
If the CIA is really behind that, then they are more stupid than I thought.
PS: Zeitgeist is pretty ridiculous...
have you graduated middle
have you graduated middle school?
Yes
and Graduate School
ty. for asking
Does not graduating middle school disqualify you from having secret information and knowledge? Can I ask is the minimum qualifications for such things?
Catch you later
*They have to do it LEGALLY
Good people make the difference, you-no
I believe that religion was an early form of political control
And that the creation by man, of god or gods, simplified the election process. The leader was constant, and those who claimed to have a direct connection to that leader, used religion to control their group.
The control came through a book, or writings from the above mentioned god.
But in reality the books were written by man. Many borrowed and customized from other religions.
I also believe the creation of religion, by man, came about as an answer to our realization that we are all mortal. Man is probably the only animal that has a sense of it's own mortality. That mortality was seized by opportunists, who offered things like everlasting life, in heaven, or by reincarnation, etc...
There was also the threat of Lakes of Fire, hell, etc..To keep people in line.
I believe that everyone is entitled to their preferred belief system.
I support the right of all people to choose a religion without fear.
I do NOT support any religion being Forced upon someone.
And lastly. Religious groups should pay taxes. Just like any business.
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
yeah that's about it.
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Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
Costructive discussion...
Thank you, Thundercloud.
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Neither nations nor households can build prosperity through debt and consumption, but rather through thrift and productivity.
-William Norman Grigg
...let it not be said that we did nothing.
-Ron Paul
My pleasure!
It's just what I believe
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
I thought we were through
I thought we were through with this stuff. The DP has been on-topic since the moderators got busy a while back. The topic is Liberty. Let's keep it that way. Trolls be gone!
We were on topic
Until those with multiple accounts felt the need to stir the pot again. Every week we go through this.
"The Constitution=Socialism"
"God VS Evolution"
"Vaccines are good for you"
"9/11 idiots need to leave the DP"
It gets old after awhile.
talk.orgins
There's a place for this. On the "old internet," there's a newsgroup called talk.origins. People have been debating the issue there since the mid 80's. They are not finished and never will be as long as the newsgroups exist. The debate will not be settled here either. At least there it is on topic. That newsgroup was set up specifically to isolate the creationist debate, because it ruins every other forum where it takes root.