Cap AND Trade INFO
This is rather long but it has all the info you'll need to take action.
A new report has just been released indicating that 40 states will seeelectric bills rise under the new cap-and-trade Carbon Tax scheme.
Just so happens that liberal strongholds like California, New York,
Connecticut and Washington State will actually see their prices
decline... while EVERY RED STATE FROM THE 2008 ELECTION except two willsee energy prices increase or skyrocket!
Why are some states (mostly blue states) paying less while other states(historically red states) are getting hammered? Because the newcap-and-trade carbon tax has been totally politicized!
Liberal politicians and bureaucrats are giving themselves the power to"allocate" the carbon allowances to support their political agenda!
According to the New York Times, a similar cap-and-trade "allocations"system failed miserably in Europe, creating a "lobbying free-for-all thatled politicians to dole out favors to various industries" while creating"little noticeable benefit to the climate" and generating a"multibillion-dollar windfall" even for favored polluters!
VOTE THIS WEEK TO IMPOSE ENERGY TAX!
Right now, Democratic leaders are trying to strike back-room deals... butour Hill contacts tell us resistance is building.
Two ways to get that message through today...
#1 -- Send Faxes Now!
Send your faxes, please use the fax numbers and sample fax lettersprovided below.
#2-- Make these phone calls.
Call your Representative(s) and key House leaders and tell them youoppose the fast-tracking of this massive tax:
House Speaker Pelosi: 202-225-4188
Majority Leader Steny Hoyer: 202-225-4131
Rep. Collin Peterson (Ag Committee Chair): 202-225-2165
Rep. Tim Holden (Ag Cmmtte Vice Chair): 202-225-5546
Talking Points:
1. I am disappointed that Speaker Pelosi is pressing for a floor votethis week on the cap-and-trade Carbon Tax.
2. I oppose the cap-and-trade Carbon Tax. This is an outrageous powergrab by the federal government that will greatly expand governmentcontrol and increase energy costs for my family.
>3. This system of "allocations" has failed in Europe and will politicizeAmerica’s energy policy.
4. Especially in these difficult economic times, Congress must not passthis tax on the American people!
Call and Fax Congress and Tell Them You Oppose the $3,100 Per FamilyCap-and-Trade Tax!
NOTE: WITH THE VOTE IMMINENT. PLEASE SEE BELOW FOR KEY PHONE AND FAX NUMBERS. MOST IMPORTANT ACTION NOW IS TO CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND
THEN OTHER KEY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BELOW.
GRASSFIRE.ORG
Title Name Party State/Dist Phone Fax
Your Representative
Rep. Cardoza Dennis D CA_18 202-225-6131 202-225-0819
Rep. Baca Joe D CA_43 202-225-6161 202-225-8671
Rep. Marshall Jim D GA_08 202-225-6531 202-225-3013
Rep. Scott David D GA_13 202-225-2939 202-225-4628
Rep. Boswell Leonard D IA_03 202-225-3806 202-225-5608
Rep. Peterson Collin D MN_07 202-225-2165 202-225-1593
Rep. McIntyre Mike D NC_07 202-225-2731 202-225-5773
Rep. Holden Tim D PA_17 202-225-5546 202-226-0996
Rep. Herseth Sandlin, Stephanie D SD_01 202-225-2801 202-225-5823
Rep. Cuellar Henry D TX_28 202-225-1640 202-225-1641
Rep. Pelosi Nancy D CA_08 202-225-4965 202-225-4188
Rep. Hoyer Steny D MD_05 202-225-4131 202-225-4300
Rep. Doyle Michael D PA_14 202-225-2135 202-225-3084
Rep. Gonzalez Charles D TX_20 202-225-3236 202-225-1915
Rep. Murphy Patrick D PA_08 202-225-4276 202-225-9511
Rep. Bright Bobby D AL_02 202-225-2901 202-225-8913
Rep. Costa Jim D CA_20 202-225-3341 202-225-9308
Rep. Minnick Walter D ID_01 202-225-6611 202-225-3029
Rep. Ellsworth Brad D IN_08 202-225-4636 202-225-3284
Rep. Chandler Ben D KY_06 202-225-4706 202-225-2122
Rep. Kratovil Frank D MD_01 202-225-5311 202-225-0254
Rep. Childers Travis D MS_01 202-225-4306 202-225-3549
Rep. Pomeroy Earl D ND_01 202-225-2611 202-226-0893
Rep. Carney Christopher D PA_10 202-225-3731 202-225-9594
Rep. Halvorson Deborah D IL_11 202-225-3635 202-225-3521
Rep. Yarmuth John D KY_03 202-225-5401 202-225-5776
Rep. Markey Edward D MA_07 202-225-2836 202-226-0092
Rep. Schauer Mark D MI_07 202-225-6276 202-225-6281
Rep. Walz Tim D MN_01 202-225-2472 202-225-3433
Rep. Kissell Larry D NC_08 202-225-3715 202-225-4036
Rep. Massa Eric D NY_29 202-225-3161 202-226-6599
Rep. Boccieri John D OH_16 202-225-3876 202-225-3059
Rep. Schrader Kurt D OR_05 202-225-5711 202-225-5699
Rep. Dahlkemper Kathy D PA_03 202-225-5406 202-225-3103
Rep. Kagen Steve D WI_08 202-225-5665 202-225-5729
Rep. Mollohan Alan D WV_01 202-225-4172 202-225-7564
Rep. Rahall Nick D WV_03 202-225-3452 202-225-9061
Rep. Ross Michael D AR_04 202-225-3772 202-225-1314
Rep. Melancon Charlie D LA_03 202-225-4031 202-226-3944
Rep. Butterfield G. D NC_01 202-225-3101 202-225-3354
Rep. Space Zack D OH_18 202-225-6265 202-225-3394
Rep. Gordon Bart D TN_06 202-225-4231 202-225-6887
Rep. Green Gene D TX_29 202-225-1688 202-225-9903
Rep. Matheson James D UT_02 202-225-3011 202-225-5638
Rep. Boucher Rick D VA_09 202-225-3861 202-225-0442
Rep. Welch Peter D VT_01 202-225-4115 202-225-6790
Rep. Inslee Jay D WA_01 202-225-6311 202-226-1606
Rep. Matsui Doris D CA_05 202-225-7163 202-225-0566
Rep. McNerney Jerry D CA_11 202-225-1947 202-225-4060
Rep. Eshoo Anna D CA_14 202-225-8104 202-225-8890
Rep. Capps Lois D CA_23 202-225-3601 202-225-5632
Rep. Waxman Henry D CA_30 202-225-3976 202-225-4099
Rep. Harman Jane D CA_36 202-225-8220 202-226-7290
Rep. DeGette Diana D CO_01 202-225-4431 202-225-5657
Rep. Markey Betsy D CO_04 202-225-4676 202-225-5870
Rep. Castor Kathy D FL_11 202-225-3376 202-225-5652
Rep. Barrow John D GA_12 202-225-2823 202-225-3377
Rep. Braley Bruce D IA_01 202-225-2911 202-225-6666
Rep. Schakowsky Janice D IL_09 202-225-2111 202-226-6890
Rep. Hill Baron D IN_09 202-225-5315 202-226-6866
Rep. Sarbanes John D MD_03 202-225-4016 202-225-9219
Rep. Stupak Bart D MI_01 202-225-4735 202-225-4744
Rep. Dingell John D MI_15 202-225-4071 202-226-0371
Rep. Pallone Frank D NJ_06 202-225-4671 202-225-9665
Rep. Holt Rush D NJ_12 202-225-5801 202-225-6025
Rep. Weiner Anthony D NY_09 202-225-6616 202-226-7253
Rep. Engel Eliot D NY_17 202-225-2464 202-225-5513
Rep. Sutton Betty D OH_13 202-225-3401 202-225-2266
Rep. Green Al D TX_09 202-225-7508 202-225-2947
Rep. Christensen Donna D VI_01 202-225-1790 202-225-5517
Rep. Baldwin Tammy D WI_02 202-225-2906 202-225-6942
Rep. Griffith Parker D AL_05 202-225-4801 202-225-4392
Rep. Berry Marion D AR_01 202-225-4076 202-225-5602
Rep. Shadegg John R AZ_03 202-225-3361 202-225-3462
Rep. Mitchell Harry D AZ_05 202-225-2190 202-225-3263
Rep. Giffords Gabrielle D AZ_08 202-225-2542 202-225-0378
Rep. Thompson Mike D CA_01 202-225-3311 202-225-4335
Rep. Radanovich G R CA_19 202-225-4540 202-225-3402
Rep. Schiff Adam D CA_29 202-225-4176 202-225-5828
Rep. Mack Mary R CA_45 202-225-5330 202-225-2961
Rep. Sanchez Loretta D CA_47 202-225-2965 202-225-5859
Rep. Salazar John D CO_03 202-225-4761 202-226-9669
Rep. Boyd Allen D FL_02 202-225-5235 202-225-5615
Rep. Stearns Cliff R FL_06 202-225-5744 202-225-3973
Rep. Bishop Sanford D GA_02 202-225-3631 202-225-2203
Rep. Deal Nathan R GA_09 202-225-5211 202-225-8272
Rep. Gingrey Phil R GA_11 202-225-2931 202-225-2944
Rep. Shimkus John R IL_19 202-225-5271 202-225-5880
Rep. Donnelly Joe D IN_02 202-225-3915 202-225-6798
Rep. Moore Dennis D KS_03 202-225-2865 202-225-2807
Rep. Whitfield Edward R KY_01 202-225-3115 202-225-3547
Rep. Michaud Mike D ME_02 202-225-6306 202-225-2943
Rep. Taylor Gene D MS_04 202-225-5772 202-225-7074
Rep. Shuler Heath D NC_11 202-225-6401 202-226-6422
Rep. Arcuri Michael D NY_24 202-225-3665 202-225-1891
Rep. Wilson Charles D OH_06 202-225-5705 202-225-5907
Rep. Boren Dan D OK_02 202-225-2701 202-225-3038
Rep. Altmire Jason D PA_04 202-225-2565 202-226-2274
Rep. Davis Lincoln D TN_04 202-225-6831 202-226-5172
Rep. Cooper Jim D TN_05 202-225-4311 202-226-1035
Rep. Tanner John D TN_08 202-225-4714 202-225-1765
Rep. Nye Glenn D VA_02 202-225-4215 202-225-4218
The letter I'm faxing:
Name
Address
Phone Number
Dear Sir/Madame,
I am disappointed that Speaker Pelosi is pressing for a floor vote thisweek on the cap-and-trade Carbon Tax.
I oppose the $3,100 Per Family cap-and-trade Carbon Tax. This is anoutrageous power grab by the federal government that will greatly expandgovernment control and increase energy costs for my family.
This system of "allocations" has failed in Europe and will politicize
America’s energy policy. Especially in these difficult economic times, Congress must not pass this tax on the American people!
I strongly urge you NOT to pass the cap-and-trade Carbon Tax. YOUR votewill be the indicator to vote for your reelection on not to.
Sincerely,
Signature
Letter from Indiana's senator on Cap And Trade.
Dear Mr. XXXXXX:
Thank you for contacting me regarding the impacts of global climate change. I appreciate your thoughts and concerns on this issue.
I am deeply concerned about the threat posed by global climate change. The scientific consensus on this issue is unequivocal. Global warming is real and greenhouse gas emissions from human activity are causing it. Scientists and others warn that climate change threatens our nation's security, and may imperil future generations' opportunity for safe, healthy, and prosperous lives.
However, any carbon-constraining mechanism must protect Hoosier ratepayers, workers and businesses from increased costs. Additionally, other nations of the world must be included in this effort, because if they are not, our action will be for naught.
Please rest assured, should legislation regarding global climate change be introduced in the 111th Congress, I will keep your views in mind.
Again, thank you for contacting me. I hope the information I have provided is helpful. My website, http://bayh.senate.gov, can provide additional details about legislation and state projects, and you can also sign up to receive my monthly e-newsletter, The Bayh Bulletin, by clicking on the link at the top of my homepage. I value your input and hope you will continue to keep me informed of the issues important to you.
Office of Senator Evan Bayh
(202) 224-5623
Russell 131
Washington, D.C. 20510
What is a ratepayer?
Indiana's Senator Evan Bayh is a scumbag.
***********Ron Paul for POTUS 2012***********
*************Obama Is A Communist!************
**********Repeal the 17th Amendment**********
Double the size of the House of Representatives
We have lost the closeness of our Representatives.
***********Ron Paul for POTUS 2012***********
*************Obama Is A Communist!************
**********Repeal the 17th Amendment**********
Double the size of the House of Representatives
$$$$$$$$$AUDIT THE FEDERAL RESERVE$$$$$$$$$$
And, Evan Bayh is an outright liar.
There is no man made global warming of ANY sort.
And you're right. Bayh IS scum, too.
best link I've seen so far
is this one...
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YTc1MmVhMGYxY2UzN...
"Unite Or Die"..
report link?
thx
.....................................................
Atlas is shrugging
.....................................................
Atlas is shrugging
My phone stays on my desk yet again...
...though I can't comment on my state's Senators or Representative when it comes to voting for core issues that the Libertarian Party would sternly condemn, I can say this: In recent months, I have actually been... proud of my Republican civil servants on The Hill.
'Course, I'm from Wyoming... and if you've seen the increase in energy costs that this abomination that they call a "bill" foists on my state's residents (estimated increase is $636/mo per household, annually I think)... I don't think ANY of my Senators/Representatives would be caught dead voting for this thing.
Can you provide some backup for those 'estimated' cost increases
One nationally quoted estimate that was similarly high (like $3,500/yr) was quickly debunked and revised to about $300/year. People that quote this stuff are extremely uninformed about how much they pay for electricity.
Did you know that in low cost states like Wy and Ne where cheap and dirty fossil fuels provide your power, your actual power portion of the bill is only a small part of what you pay? Your prices are lower than ours and my bill for 800 kWhs/month is around $100/month. Of that, almost half is taxes and fees and other charges. If the actual cost of my electricity were to double with the fees staying the same, my costs would only rise about $30. Now consider that these estimates only say the costs would go up by 20-40% which translates to $6 - $12 per month.
Under C&T, however, your state could have more developers and investors interested in making power from wind because they could add in a couple cents/kWh from C&T and your state would now have an abundance of power which would lower your costs. ....that is unless you decided you take a few of your nasty coal burners offline and stop polluting everyone's air.
Red states, blue states.....
I thought this was the united States. Stop dividing you/we/us/them up by some imaginary demarcation lines. We are all in this together, never forget that. United we stand, and all that.
Just my 2 cents
Jesse
'united' now adays is just a
'united' now adays is just a contraction of the slang 'un-nited' which was first coined by some illiterate 9 year old back in 1987.
Firstly, I want to get the
Firstly, I want to get the word out that only the major urban coastal ereas of Washington State are blue. The rest of the state is red. It's just the Seattle Tacoma area outnumber all of the rest of us put together.
Received responses back from both Maria Cantwell and Patty Murray. Murray seems to be walking a fine line and made it apparent she would prefer a bill that has been better thought out and won't have disasterous affects on the economy. She was non-commital, however.
Cantwell sent the usual form letter glorifying how this bill will save the planet.
Off-topic, but Hi, fellow Washingtonian! :)
I would agree with you!
I did not spend much time living in WA (though my current legal address, and much beloved and appreciated place of residency, is on Point Roberts, WA :) ), but I have driven around the state, and there is an interesting difference between urban areas (Seattle) and the rest. Not to mention that here on The Point I've met the most interesting cast of real-life characters with Ron Paul stickers on their cars.
I think it is entirely possible to turn this state into *neither* colour (the other word for "above", instead of "left" or "right"), honestly.
Good luck!
Paul B.
Disgusting response from my Senator in FL
Thank you for contacting me regarding the American Clean Energy and Security Act. I appreciate hearing from you and would like to take this opportunity to respond to your concerns.
On May 15, 2009, Representative Henry Waxman (D-CA) introduced the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 (H.R. 2454). This bill would create an absolute cap on total emissions from all covered entities including the electric power, transportation, oil and gas industry, and other commercial sectors with the goal of reducing greenhouse gases. This cap would be lowered over time through 2050, and a government-created market would be established to sell and trade emission allowances. On June 26, 2009, the House of Representatives passed H.R. 2454 by a vote of 219-212. H.R. 2454 now awaits further consideration in the Senate.
I believe that the threat of climate change is real, and I am working with my colleagues in the Senate to regulate and reduce greenhouse emissions. As we consider climate change legislation, we need to ensure that the laws we pass will in fact reduce carbon emissions and lessen the threat of catastrophic climate change. Additionally, we need to consider and attempt to mitigate any negative effects the new laws would have on our economy, energy prices, and Americans living on fixed incomes.
The United States cannot solve this problem alone, and similar efforts in China and India are critical to combating this threat. However, our country can provide needed leadership and technological innovation for the international community, and, as one of the world's largest energy consumers, it is time for the United States to accept this responsibility. The choices we make now in dealing with climate change may be some of the most significant environmental and economic decisions of our generation. I assure you that I am committed to passing legislation to counter the threat posed by global climate change, and I will be sure to keep your thoughts in mind should H.R. 2454, or any related legislation, receive the attention of the full Senate.
Again, thank you for contacting me. If you have any additional questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me. In addition, for more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at http://martinez.senate.gov.
Sincerely,
Mel Martinez
United States Senator
R3VOLution
I'm in Florida too
Martinez is a disgrace for sure.
"Government spending cannot create additional jobs. If the government provides the funds required by taxing the citizens or by borrowing from the public, it abolishes on the one hand as many jobs as it creates on the other.", www.mises.org
"Endless money forms the sinews of war." - Cicero, www.freedomshift.blogspot.com
Big Mel...
...is just another stinkfish in a polluted pond.
"This is rather long but it
"This is rather long but it has all the info you'll need to take action.
A new report has just been released indicating that 40 states will see electric bills rise under the new cap-and-trade Carbon Tax scheme."
Source? We all oppose Cap and Trade, but you gotta provide sources when you start talking about new "reports". If you don't, anyone who thinks for themselves (you know, those people you probably want on your side), will probably not take you seriously.
According to a new report most Daily Paul readers are fat toddlers who moonlight as UFC fighters.
This unfortunately is a
This unfortunately is a problem that runs deeper than just shallow political ramifications for blue states. Red states have had a history of being politically in bed with fossil fuel energy and as such haven't really diversified their electricity generation enough. Part of it is geographic -- Oregon is a blue state, but we have ample source for hydro power.
While I agree that cap and trade isn't the right solution to stop greenhouse gas emissions, I also think that these coal states need to diversify their energy needs for economic and environmental stability. Energy, like all things, is cheapest when there is lots of competition. In Oregon, I pay under 6 cents a kilowatt-hour from my utility! And even here, I think we are over dependent on natural gas.
Chris
cascadiagames.com
Here in Nebraska we mainly rely on Fossil Fuels
but we also have two nuclear plants. But over in Iowa they have put up quite a few wind farms.The people who get their energy from the wind farms have higher electric bills than ones that do not.
The cap and trade is pure BS.
I'm all for using wind and sun to produce energy but not because of global warming but to end my dependence on the light company.
Let's be totally clear here
about what the reasons are for our (yes, I'm in Ne also) prices and our neighbor's. Nebraska is a state owned utility state and Iowa has privately owned utilities. This in itself reduces our costs a little, but more importantly, it gives our utilities a mandated monopoly. This monopoly has allowed them to turn a blind eye to ALL renewable, alternative, clean and independent power sources so far. I've personally lobbied them for most of a decade to get away from so much coal for all the known reasons. (those being national and state independence, climate and pollution effects and energy sector monopolistic control) Their answer has always been that coal doesn't hurt a thing and we'll keep using it until we're forced to change.
It's for this reason that I'm STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF CAP AND TRADE. Without outside forces, our state and others who continue to pollute and tear up the environment have no incentive to change. If they choose to use C&T to simply pay someone else to go cleaner, then they can but eventually the citizens here will realize that it's cheaper to clean up once than to pay someone else each year after year.
On the other side, we 'could' actually make cleaner technologies here and sell them or the excess energy they create here to other states to PROFIT from C&T.
As far as the reason the red states are expected to see a price rise and the blue are not is because of anything political. The rest of the world averages paying much more for electricity and our 'blue states' are up closer to or above them. With C&T, these markets will be allowed to trade on a (more or less) free market with a larger group of players. You guys do remember promoting free market principles, don't you? Wasn't that a big part of what started the RP / R3volution movement?
On one last item, I have yet to see anyone discuss the actual content of this bill. Generic banter about C&T and 1-2 other parts doesn't give people much of an idea of the real wording contained in this bill. Can we maybe get our act together a little?
Let's be clear that you are missing the point
Cap & Trade would be the largest tax ever levied on the people of the US. It is REVENUE!! Read the recent Rolling Stone article that was posted here. Goldman Sachs has a hand in this.
Ok, BillyBoy...
It's the largest tax??? Really? Because you say so and back that up with an article rampant with technical errors and misdirections (related to the C&T part - I do agree with most of the rest of it)?
Can you actually cite some facts yourself so we can debate them and inform people to help them think for themselves?
I'll start this out. Which would you rather have some new system where the free market increases costs and allows you to call it a tax if you want, but it goes towards cleaner and more independent energy... or more of the status quo where a government mandated monopoly blames everyone but themselves for increasing their costs more than the first scenerio but convinces you it's not a monopoly?
Cap and trade would give public utilities less of a monopoly?
Wrong. Cap and trade is for private enterprise. Green Tags will be a form of currency in this trade system, and they have value that is government mandated (reduce your carbon emmissions or buy green tags from those who have). Who do you think prints these green tags? Who do you think profits from this government created market?
Have you learned nothing from this site? You feel that government intervention in the markets is positive? When the free markets dictates the cost of clean energy to be cheaper than fossil fuels, we will get green in a hurry. The MARKET determines viability, not the government with it's unintended consequences of it's intervention. It's creating a market that does not currently exist for the purpose of revenue generation and partnering with bankers for their further profiteering.
You've obviously been suckered in
by big energy's propaganda.
C&T is for private enterprise. Check.
Green tags are already a form of currency world-wide that the current polluters refuse to acknowledge and their value is free market set on a global basis. I can buy them from here (chicago), Europe or elsewhere right now. The prices are relatively close in each of the markets and since a peruvian tag is equivalent to a pennsylvanian one, all governments can do is manipulate floors and caps. As with the stock market, traders do have manipulation power but far less than the government has on carbon taxes!
I believe 100% in the free market. This is not a completely free market solution, but it's vastly better than having the monopoly generating regulation that we have now. In most ways, this is getting some of the government out of the game. If you don't think you have a monopoly, try shopping for electricity like to can for gasoline. With gas, you can choose where, when, who and how much you wish to purchase. With electricity, you get none of those choices. You have zero recourse if your local utility ups the price. Should you choose to go off-grid (aka choose an electricity alternative), you are still mandated to sell them the excess at their prices even after you still pay the monthly minimum account fees. That's right, you're not allowed to disconnect in most states if you've had electric service. How is this anything but government mandated monopoly which the energy companies lobbied for and won?
As far as green being cheaper, in most cases it is cheaper now. This varies from technology to technology, but over the lifetime of the system, any time the system is paid off before it dies, that's defined as cheaper. Of course you could say that you can make more money investing somewhere else, but we're not talking about investing. We're talking about competing with an inflation based, high demand, dwindling supply, morale-less, polluting, ecologically disruptive, government manipulative and profit-centric industry. It doesn't take much to see that anything close to cost effective has won hands down in the long run even before considering that it helps keep our energy money at home.
As far as these subsidies costing too much to get going, that's a complete crock! Every energy source has had higher subsidies for longer times than "this one". Many, like oil, nuclear, coal and NG, are still receiving subsidies. On top of that, "this one" isn't simply one industry. We have no single Philadelphia Project to throw money at. The people creating solutions come from hundreds of companies plus thousands of private inventors, tinkerers and garage mechanics. How does the winner of that group get selected? It's by the free market. Investors risk their money for guaranteed return from power sales. If no one knows what subsidies we'll have next year, no one will invest this year. Case in point, compare the wind farm installations to the legislative bickering about wind's PTC assistance. Less assurance directly equates to dry spells in new sites. Would you invest a month before they pass the PTC which could have grandfathered you in, knowing that doing so now grandfathers you out? NO, and neither did they.
Don't complain about green, renewable, alternative, etc. energy being more expensive! I've been in this industry long enough to know it was the government's indecision and wishy-washy promises that has killed about every project we could have done.
You want cheap clean energy? Set ANY long term regulation structure that allows Joe Off-Grid to compete with Big Energy even marginally and wait about 2 years.
I sell PV's
Without the tax incentive, accelerated depreciation, massive rebates, it does not pencil. It's not even close.
Then you're a horrible salesman
Why would you not include the incentives? Did you pay your utility company an extra amount when they received incentives to support nuclear beginning in the 50's and still get now? Are you paying your gas station attendant an extra amount to offset the free royalties they get for domestic drilling in the US? What about every other subsidy you benefit from? How about your neighbors? Are you paying them for the right to pollute their air with coal and oil emissions? Did you kick in anything to any of the 20,000 or so people that died in the US last year due to pollution related illnesses? You benefitted from all the above freebies, didn't you? You kept them, didn't you? Why are you holding PV (the worst example of a renewable, by the way) to a higher standard? Is it just so you can bitch about Obama putting this legislation in place?
Thotso
I'm not an Obama supporter by any means, but I've been pushing for most of these types of programs (without the negative political control or stigma) longer than most Americans have been climate change aware. Now that it's here, it's not perfect but with our current political environment, we're not going to get any better.
Oh and I call BS on your selling PVs. At less than $3/watt, the non-incented, straight-line payoff can be as low as 13 years in multiple states.
You're a douche bag liberal, and you don't know jack
You're like a little kid. I do sell MAJOR PV systems to the feds, municipalities and schools. I make over $200,000 per year, so I would say that I am a damn good salesman. $3.00/watt installed? Are you a thin-film hack? A high quality crystolline system installed commercially with good inverters is in the $7-$8/watt range.
You should go blog over at Huffington Post with the others who want the government to save them.
Thanks for clarifying where you stand
It's nice to see someone degrade a conversation to name calling when they have no idea what they're talking about. Liberal? Are you kidding me? I'm the most free market principled person you're gonna find. I'm against all big government, an avid supporter of RP and even took over my county GOP and pushed another delegate to St. Paul for him. Unfortunately, I live in the real world where we have a certain system in place and we have to work to a) change it back to constitutional roots and b) make the best of it for the current issues we need to address. It seems like you're living in a world where we throw all common sense out the window because it's not a perfect world.
This is not a case of wanting the government to save us. This is trying to get some amount of free market trading to take place which can override the legislated dis-incentive that our utility and oil companies have toward doing the right thing. If you could promise me the regulations would all be removed in favor a true free markets, I'd yank my support for this bill in a heartbeat, but no one can.
Regarding the rest of your attack... first off, I didn't say $3 installed. I just said under $3 meaning the price of the panel. That's the most often quoted and compared number. Total price today is around $5.40/watt cost, $6 ish installed, for most competitive systems. If you're much over that, then you're gouging in a market where you can take advantage of subsidies.
Secondly, there's nothing wrong with thin film (or B grade) solar panels which are even cheaper yet.
Third, being in the industry, I would think you would have seen the "wait and see" attitude that permeated the last 2-5 years in the wind industry. Agreed, PV isn't as sensitive, but CSP, Geothermal and any startup tech are highly so. Do you think a new technology is going to be made or built here when those guys can get 40-65 cents/kWh in the middle east?
Lastly, I can top your annual salary in one renewable project. It's not impressive or relative.
I agree that cap and trade
I agree that cap and trade hasn't been proven to work. It seems to me that a logical debate should have been A) how fast are we heating up B) what can be done about it and C) what is the cost of action versus inaction in real dollars and other (wildlife preservation, etc). It seems like people got so caught up in fighting the legitimacy of "A" that there never was much thinking that went into "B" and "C." Unfortunately, things seem to have become less and less data driven and things proceed.
Chris
cascadiagames.com
You guys don't get it
This bill has nothing to do with the environment. It is a new revenue generating source for the government, period. This will enrich the bankers once again. Green Tags are the same as Green Backs. This bill has two things to do with the environment:
1. Jack
2. Shit
AMEN !!
AMEN !!