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OK, Anarchists, here's your big chance!

    WARNING: This thread is not for everyone; it poses a HYPOTHETICAL situation, and therefore calls for hypothetical thinking. Some patients may experience headaches, nausea, and dizziness when confronted with hypotheticals that differ from their predetermined conclusions. In the most severe cases, patients have resorted to arguing against the hypothetical as given, to contradicting themselves, to citing dubious examples, and even to posting links to other authors who contradict themselves. If you experience any of these effects, you should seek the advice of a logician immediately.

Here's a great chance for the anarchists among us to put our minds at ease about how well things could work under anarchy. Let me briefly paint a scene, and then it's your turn. Here are the hypothetical facts:

Day One.
1. Tomorrow morning, all 307,000,000 citizens of the United States wake up with a new and miraculous conviction that all taxation is "stealing", that there can be no possible act of government that is anything less than "evil", and that they should never be expected to comply with any standard or convention to which they did not personally become "party" by having signed a formal contract.
2. All being of sincere conscience in the matter, every governmental official and employee resigns immediately and begins to look for work in the free market.
3. People scramble to find a way to replace whatever services had previously been provided by government.

Day 365.
3. There are no more states, counties, or cities---not in the political sense. There are no more political boundaries, except that the landmass formerly known as The United States is now known by 315,000,000 different names, as no consensus could be reached and no one dared to try to bind his opinion on anyone else.
4. There has been no crime in a year now, for this has been a truly miraculous paradigm shift for America, and no one would dare wrong his neighbor.

Day 366.
5. A bloc of nations including Russia, North Korea, China, India, and Brazil invades the landmass formerly known as The United States with the goal of killing most inhabitants, making slaves of the rest, and seizing all property. They are highly organized, well funded, well equipped, and are operating under one central command. The invading force is ten million strong, with another ten million in reserve.
6. The inhabitants of the land mass, however, have long since dismantled the former body politic, including the military. There is no central command, for the very thought of anyone being told what to do is repugnant to our new-found political paradigm. Further, we also abandoned militias since having a commander even at a local level was repugnant to our new sense of liberty. Yes, the guys all signed contracts, but they kept wanting to renegotiate their contracts every time some new situation arose that made them uncomfortable. The best description of what we now have is "mildly-cooperative citizens with guns". Private individuals bought up all the government's tanks and planes and ships when it disbanded. Many of these, of course, were sold to other countries for a profit---countries such as Brazil, China, Russia, and India, etc.

Day 367.
What happens? Can this anarchy survive this war? Can it repel the invaders? Can it get organized without any rulers? Can it do so in time to make a difference?

Or is this just the price of anarchy---that it lasts only up until somebody comes along to take charge of it? Is anarchy, at best, simply a temporary state of affairs? Is it only a joy ride----one that lasts until it's either out of gas or under arrest?

    Gentle suggestions for those wanting to reply in defense of anarchy:

    1. Please make your own argument, rather than linking to somebody else's blog, article, or video.
    2. If you are going to say, "Ah, but under anarchy, we would have already organized a free-market military", then please describe exactly how that would work without being repugnant to all involved---as well as how it could be done without having a de facto "government".
    3. Please do your best to use conventional definitions of words---as found in good dictionaries---so as not to provide any needless stumbling blocks to those who would like to understand and to discuss your answers.

Jack Pelham
Rule of Law Revolution
www.ruleoflawrevolution.com




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not a fan of this question either...

but anarchy can't work... a civilized society needs a JUST government (operating within its constitutional frameworks) to have a monopoly on legalized force - Ayn Rand recently convinced me...

how would we punish criminals? shoot em? there must be objective laws that are in place to protect our individual rights... and government is there to punish those that seek to abridge our rights - foreign and domestic.

now as for the best means to finance that government... i havent fully discovered for myself yet. the income tax is a clear violation of our right to property - whether it be 1% or 99% tax... the principle is the same. any help with financing government from an Austrian standpoint anyone?

I've always said like it or not there would be taxes...

Taxation by force.

You could just have it possibly refined to be a voluntary tax system, like what Ron Paul discusses, but it covers all basics....it always has to have the taxes in play for just that purpose- no tax, no money to run government.

Not directly answer the question

I am not going to directly answer the question, as the question has been set up on assumptions in a way that it would not happen. Transition would be more normal, it would take decades to transition.

But I think it is important to respond to the question of defense.
Iraq had a centralised defense
Eastern European countries during WW2 had a centralised defense
As well as many other countries, Japan, France, this is not a prerequisite for winning a war or defending a country.

The factors that usually determine a wars outcome are:
1) Size of enemy
2) Strength of enemy
3) Organisation of enemy
4) Propensity for enemy to attack.

The elements
1) Size of enemy, most countries are much smaller than the USA, so that rules out about 80% of countries that would attack.
2) The anarchic society would have a big weakness in that it would be less strong because of big ticket items would only be purchased by large groupings, Oil companies, Concerned citizens of Texas. So there would be less big ticket weapons, diminishing strength.
3) Lack of a central authority might exist, it depends on how sensible the society is.
4) So in an anarchic society, with no defense force, Canada would probably not attach as it is a friend. So that eliminates about 20% of countries that would attack.

If the society works on a charity army of mercenaries, there would be no issue useless everyone was happy to pay their share until the war started. :-)
But otherwise pacts would have to be made with other governments.

Realistically, only Russia and China could invade the USA in the scenario, so a lot depends on their attitude to the USA.

By the way, crime would be a part of an anarchistic society. There is no way to eliminate crime as long as people have free minds and conflicting goals.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/youownyou (quotes)
Website: http://www.own-yourself.com (Under construction)

True anarchy, not unlike true communism,

is a great utopian concept.

But then, human nature enters the picture!

And it all falls apart!

you have that backwards

That applies to government, not anarchy. The idea that you giving a coercive monopoly to a small group of people is moral and somehow protects rights is irrational, paradoxical, and utopian.

It is anarchy that is realistic - *because* of a realistic understanding of human nature.

whatever you say, OferNave ....

.

Not a new question

Anarchists have been asked this literally millions of times by nearly everyone they talk to, and I'm kind of tired of having to answer it every time. It's another one of those "but who will build the roads?" questions. Can't you go read some an intro to anarchy book and cover the basics without wasting more of our time?

Here, read this:
http://www.lulu.com/content/2935951

It includes a section on collective defense which answers your question.

I'm not a proponent of Anarchism, but this is very flawed

It presents the tired Neoconic ideal that 'we go to fight them over there before they come here' which is just nonsense.

This is all completely divorced from reality because it doesn't take into account any likely scenario (Brazil invading, no one dare wronging their neighbor).

At it's best Anarchy is presented as an ideal to work towards and like most ideals things improve just by working towards them. Perhaps simply calling it the Ideal of Independent Freedom would be more suiting than Anarchism.

The best solution for a society are strong families woven into fruitful communities. That's really what it all comes down to.

============================

Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/90198
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/86643

============================

Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/90198
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/86643

Get thee to a logician

If you experience any of these effects, you should seek the advice of a logician immediately.

It is you who needs the treatment of a logician stat.

Straw man:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

Not playing your game

I prefer to ignore the absurdities of your hypothetical and look at the reality of how a free society would actually come to be - and how that would affecdt it ability to defend itself. BTW, there is no validity to your claim that only a government can provide military defense. Numerous authors have explained in detail why and how insurance companies would, for example, provide defense services.

Now, for reality. The achievement of a free society will occur, if at all, incrementally. It will have done so by means of the logic and power of its ideas which will have permeated the thinking of bulk of the citizenry. As human nature is universal, that is, all peoples share the ability to understand and desire the blessings of liberty and as we live in a highly interconnected world these ideas will, in this age of instant mass communication, have also spread dramatically throughout humanity. Accordingly, as these ideas gain dominance in the US they will have also greatly influenced the thinking of the people in the aggressor nations and this influence will work against the forces of aggression, creating enormous domestic dissent if the governments persisted in their aggressive ambitions.

Even absent the acceptance of a shared acceptance of the principles of liberty and rejection of coercion, the world's economic interdependence will only increase as a country of the US's stature makes clear and substantial moves towards liberty with all due haste. A freer US will have ever increasing and mutually beneficial economic ties with potential aggressor nations the benefits of which will create disincentives within those nations to attack a trading partner. Indeed, powerful forces in these other countires you wish to designate as hellbent on destroying the US will be a powerfu counter-force within those countries against waging a war of aggression against a free US.

Meanwhile, even as the US moves towards freedom, with the modern world's increased communications, it would become readily apparent early on that any aggressor nations were taking steps towards invasion. As the US at that point will have renounced interventionism and posed no invasive threat, the aggressor's warrantless militarism would arouse the entire world against them. They would lose access to bases, resources, intelligence and important commerce would be curtailed. They would be seen as moral pariahs.

Your hypothetical assumes without any basis that the instantaneous anarchist society will have dismantled its military. Considering the US spends roughly as much as the rest of the world combined on military expenditures these military assets are not just going to waste away. To the extent they have value people will make use of them. Much of the military hardware would likely be obtained by insurance companies. As mentioned before, insurance companies will charge a premium for providing defense services and it is highly likely they will have their analysts determine what threats exist towards their clients (the people in AWA) and what amount of military personnel and hardware are necessary to fend off attack. The cost of this service will be factored into client's cost of insurance coverage.

As an example of how the anarchist society could defend itself, Stefan Molyneux has pointed out that the first thing to note is that nuclear weapons have been the single most effective deterrent to invasion that has ever been invented. Not one single nuclear power has ever been invaded, or threatened with invasion – and so, in a very real sense, there is no bigger “bang for the buck” in terms of defense than a few well-placed nuclear weapons.If we assume that a million subscribers are willing to pay for a few nuclear weapons as a deterrent to invasion, and that those nuclear weapons cost about $30 million to purchase and maintain every
year, then we are talking about $30 a year per subscriber – or less than a dime a day. The defense agencies only make money if an invasion does not occur, just as health insurance companies only make money when you are not sick, but rather well.

marlow

marlow

jack writes: "Great. And

jack writes:

"Great. And how many RPGs, tanks, airplanes, Bradleys, machine guns, body armor, radios, artillery pieces, night vision goggles, spy satellites, UAVs, and helicopters did they buy?"

And all that equipment can't seem to route out a few thousand insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan. It is you jack who has failed to support your claim.
The axis powers were defeated in trying to take over other countries not on thier on turf. They expended thier energy and resourse elsewhere.

And WWII was a another war started by the bankers just like all of them. As I said you need to study some history.

History and current events support my claim overwhelmingly!
-----
End The Fat
59 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

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End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Iraq and Afghanistan aren't

Iraq and Afghanistan aren't real "total" wars. If they were we would win it in a week. WW2 was fought between nation-states and conscripted armies.

Ventura 2012

We did win in a few weeks

Now we are occupiers. That''s a very different thing.

Now, if you want to speculate about a war of annihilation, then OK, I guess we could kill all the Iraqis. But Wars of Annihilation have not been done since ancient times. Not even WWII, as brutal as that was.

It depends on what the goal

It depends on what the goal is. If all you care about is getting rid of a group of people or stealing the natural resources, you might not mind killing everyone to "win".

Ventura 2012

How do you know this tread

How do you know this tread is not made just to get your responce for possible action in the future. Shut it. Rule of law , which law ? The ones that are no longer enforced ? ERGO your Justice System. ERGO your Presidency gets to choose which one the dept wants to enforce ...Ergo lazy Court. ETC, ETC.
Which ever way you choose to believe , YOU are on your own where the law is concerned .They choose which one to enforce...When they choose wrong , you know the results & so do they.
*They have to do it LEGALLY
Good people make the difference, you-no

The Anarchist Society vs. the Military State..

The Anarchist Society vs. the Military State: The Insignificance of the Free Rider by Vedrun Vuk
http://mises.org/multimedia/mp3/Vuk.mp3

Outlines it completely... Guess who wins? :D

"4. There has been no crime

"4. There has been no crime in a year now, for this has been a truly miraculous paradigm shift for America, and no one would dare wrong his neighbor."

Utopian. In an anarcho-capitalist society, there would still be crime. Just basically non existent, because private courts and defense agencies do a better job at distributing justice than the State does. That is what happens when you have a monopoly on the use of violence over a given territory. Who cares what the "customer" thinks? Throw ya ass in jail for a speeding ticket.

5. Why? They will lose. I'd love to see China invade the Bronx or 5 Boroughs. Are you seriously contending an invading / occupying force could DEFEAT home grown DEFENSIVE militia's / guerrilla warfare?

History refutes you. See Vietnam, see Afghanistan twice, see Iraq. See first American revolution... cont.

Not only would they be facing 300 million people with guns defending their own property. There are private defense agencies which would offer defense services. Their whole apparatus is DEFENSE. ALL R & D goes to DEFENSE. And this isn't "Defense" in terms of US DEPT of "Defense" that department is OFFENSIVE only basically.

Insurance companies would fund then as well. It is in their interests not to see their customers property get destroyed. It is FAR MORE beneficial for them to say, buy an AA gun's and defend their property, than pay for the destruction of a city being carpet bombed.

5. China

Takes out people in its own cities. Do you really think a group of chinese that wanted the Bronx could not take it?
Have you been tot he Bronx? If you remove the welfare and state subsidies in a month there would nothig left to take over

You under estimate the

You under estimate the ability of people to rally against a common enemy. That is when they are in their home land, being invaded by a foriegn power.

Your point about China taking out it's OWN people is completely irrelevant.

The US takes out its own people. Get a grip. ;)

A question for the anarchists.

If you were to "get the keys" for an M1A1, or M1A2 Abrams tank,
or "get control" of an F-22 fighter jet,
or "get your hands" on a nuke,

what the hell would you do with them?

How about we be clear

How about we be clear here... no Ron Paul supporters are "anarchists" in the traditional sense of the word.

They are non-archists or anarcho-capitalists.

"Anarchists" are the traditional socialists. They are the ones rioting in the street, destroying private property and breaking the non aggression axiom.

Anarcho-capitalists is the LOGICAL extension of Libertarianism.

What would an anarcho-capitalist do, if they got the keys to any of that? Well, it depends on the individual ;)

It is NOT your property, so taking it would be THEFT. That depends if wasn't owned by the State that is. If it was owned by the state, and we are assuming the state has been disbanded, then it is whoever homesteads it, or claims it first with their labor.

Then it is your property and you can do what you want with it. Sell it. Destroy it. Use it to fly. But if you destroy property with it, you are liable. Naturally.

You violate natural law - you violate natural rights -> natural justice.

conza88,

my question stands.

How would the anarchist use the newly-acquired assets to repel the invaders in the hypothetical scenario?

Read above..

Read above..

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/98922#comment-1088363

Already answered. It depends on the individual. You can only ask them.

What would the minarchist do with it? What would the communist? It's a stupid question.

Read the above. They could homestead it, use it - sell it to PDA's.

It is their property - they can do what they want with it. Again, that is if it is not anyone elses property. And they don't initiate violence against anyone elses property.

"It's a stupid question."

I take back my question to you, as it was directed to someone living in la-la land.

Question to the minarchists?

How can the state say it PROTECTS property, when it must VIOLATE property to exist?

Ever heard of a vaccine?

Ever heard of a vaccine? What about an investment? How can you say you are making money when you are losing it(in the short run)?

Ventura 2012

Ever heard of Austrian

Ever heard of Austrian Economics?

The dichotomy between short run and long run, micro and macro is fallicious.

Keynesian fails. Sorry.

I just explained Austrian

I just explained Austrian time preference/investment theory to you. Stop parroting everything you hear and think.

Ventura 2012

Do you

Have and example of it violating property?