(Josf)) With very few exceptions I have been sent into exile. I seek discussion, not argument, and so it is unusual, in my experience, to have these opportunities to respond to specifics that are specifically challenging my competitive viewpoint.
((Fonta)) I understand completely, Josf. Many of us crave the kind of discussion you describe. No, you have not been sent into exile, unless you choose to think that you have. You can always find like minded people with similar communication styles who want to dig deeper, share their thoughts and discuss.. From time to time I have found many on the DP. Many communicate in a different manner which does not mean they do not have the knowledge base or the ability. Some do and due to time restraints or interest areas simply choose not to. Some operate in sound bytes much like on Twitter. Some seem to enjoy arguing for argument's sake rather than to grow and resolve. Some have no interest in listening to others and a forum like this offers an opportunity to just express yourself monologue style without seeking exchange. Some lie and some attempt to tell the truth. Such is the nature of the society that we live in and the various communication modes we encounter and live with.
((Josep))I don't often find, in my experience, specific acknowledgments of points I offer to counterpoints existing whereby a point intends to be compared with another point and where the two points appear to be contradictory, and at which point, having both points side by side, there then is an opportunity to evaluate those points as those points contradict each other, so as to reach a goal of knowing better as to which point is more accurate, more productive, less deceptive, less destructive, and in a word, which point is good, relative to which point is not so good.
((Fonta)) I understand where you are coming from and how you have moved from an ongoing wealth of self-education to a strong desire to share and be shared with in order to teach what you know, but also to learn and grow from the experience of meaningful exchange. Wish I could remember more from a class I took years ago using symbolic logic to teach physics. It was a new experience for me and I was amazed that there is a mathematical logic in some deep philosophical phrases which can indicate the amount of truth contained. If I remembered more, I would more fully understand your very long sentence above. It does make sense to me; however, (LOL) I encounter you at a time when I recognize a personal need to be more succinct. in order to better communicate with more people. Most of my posts are overlooked because they are too long. I know that. However, sometimes when you reach an "aha" and can put it down in writing, you feel released, not exiled.
((JOSF)))Bear, if I may tell on her, has just gone through a David and Goliath moment on this point that I'm trying to point out, as this point compared to a competitive point and the point being stated as such:
((Fonta)) I have followed your exchange with Bear and found it very interesting and I have learned from it as well as an observer. I have also noticed that she had much to share with you as you recognize her as a very spiritual person and you were open to her sharing and I respect you for that. Being teachable is just as important as teaching." I was impressed by the nature of your "thank you" on her thread to Michael.
((Josef)) Things are being held accountable for the actions of people.
((Fonta)) The above is obviously very important to you as I have seen it woven into several things you have written. I would like to throw out that while I understand what you are saying and agree that "that" is part of the problem, our discussion would be greatly enhanced by returning to the point of my post so I know if we are on the same page because it began out of interest in and love for a grandchild who is growing in grace and truth.
There are a growing number of children, my grandson being one, who are being educated outside the propaganda machine. Some programs may be better than others; however, most encourage individual thinking about issues in order to arrive at personal decisions regarding actions taken in their names by a group (Government) in bed with another group (Corporations) all geared toward a goal( Global Dominance) that will benefit a very small but powerful group (Elites).
These children and many of their parents are just beginning with issues like "foreign aid" and realizing the lies, as you say, contained therein. Perhaps at this point they are no farther along than waking up to a new understanding that (a) foreign aid is not what they thought it was, (b) what is called humanitarian is often anything but, (c) with their new understanding it is both untruthful as presented and immoral once understood and (d) .for the first time they are studying the Constitution.
Josef, I appreciate the discussion and will get back to you on the rest of your post. However, I just want to be sure that you understand we are talking 13 and 14 year olds. Remember that you said at that age you had little more to go on than a book on the Lusitania. I see this assignment and the outcome so far as very positive in regards to the education movement that has to take place and is taking place. The kids are digging up the information and discussing it among themselves. Yes, a debate will take place; however, they have pretty much resolved the conclusion. They learned a lot in a period of a month and a half. I would venture to say they learned more about foreign aid than some adults on this blog know. My grandson knew very little about the Constitution several months ago and yet, through the internet, had many questions about the way our government operates and he had a growing suspicion that much of the news was lies. What he did not have was a forum...a place to discuss with his peers. His parents weren't as informed as they should have been. He felt like he was in exile like you said about yourself, in that he did not have a place to discuss his thoughts with peers...where he wouldn't be treated as just a kid by adults that he wasn't so sure knew as much as they thought they knew. His parents are also listening and growing, thinking and learning. They are also learning to respect their sons' thoughts and listen and encourage him..
My point is that while perhaps imperfect to you...this is all a very good thing. They are beginners. They are moving in the right direction. I don't think there are any lies in the approach or their conclusions. I am certain they are all aware that there are individuals within those groups we call government, corporation, lobbyist, elitists that are responsible for the immoral decisions and the lies. They will be replaced each administration with more individuals that have names. They are responsible but so are the masses who allow the circus to continue administration after administration. We the people are the enablers through apathy and ignorance,
Meanwhile I am delighted that a little thirteen year old with a very good mind, since of moral responsibility, understanding that there are 13 year olds like him all over the world asking the same questions, has a place to discuss these issues openly in a manner that creatively affirms him and excites him. He is not just playing video games and twitting. Education works...is a slow process...but is happening in some quarters. I see hope in that. Don't you?
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