Comment: Collectivism/Individualism/Voluntary/Involuntary/Private/Public

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Speaking of disjointed. I am afraid my reply leaves much to be desired. I am not sure that it is well thought out or concise. I am just speaking on the fly.

"Why would I want to listen to a fool?"
To find a possible way to help a fool see the exactness of what makes him, or her, a fool.

I said that in reference to your words about listening to Bakunin’s words because he does not believe in God to get another perspective:

“Bakunin speaks from the voice of those who do not believe in God (so named).”

Bakunin is dead, so why would he need any help?

But now that I have gone back to get that quote I see this:

“Is that voice shared by anyone? Is that voice worthy of spending the costs required to listen to that voice?”

So really you are talking about helping people who are alive?

See, I just think I understand your words…looks like I still need to read 3 times! I am sorry. Yes, I can see a reason to talk to people who say there is no God to help them. However, Josf, I probably would not have talked with you this long but you believe there is a God, even if you called that God, Truth. You believed God to be Creator of Life. Romans says that we know there is God by creation. But if there is a person who refuses to speak of God, then I cannot really have much of a conversation with them, unless they are willing to entertain the thought of God, because the perspective they have is godless and foolish. There are self-proclaimed atheists here at the DP who seem to be more that disbelievers in God, but rather God haters, or haters of the concept of there being God. Fine, I know my boundaries and I will not speak that which they do not wish to hear, so there is not much to share in discussion. However, I still care about those people and am willing at any time to speak to them.
"How many millions have been murdered trying to achieve economic equality?"
No, that is a lie, those people have no desire for anything but destruction. They claim to want this or that, but the proof of what they want is in what they get.
I will assume here you are speaking of the murderers getting what they want, not those being murdered who thought they were getting economic equality. From what I understand of things is that economic equality is promised and murder is given to get there. And then if you are not murdered, you get to that promised land of economic equality, but really it is economic slavery while those who made the promise rise above the slaves.
“From someone in the East, it may be odd for them to see US doing all the wrong things that they did, when in fact, we are not following the same exact script.”

Can you explain those words to me more?
“If the person is told that God is behind all this torture and mass murder visited upon you, because you deserve it, and that particular person has done no one any harm, ever, as far as anyone has ever told them, as far as any evidence exists, then what is the logical conclusion based upon the available evidence as to what is, precisely, this God?”

I don’t understand those words either. What person is told that God is behind all the torture and mass murder visited upon them?
When you say these words:
“When I'm told that God is evicting the natives who have lived on a piece of Real Estate, and crushing them if they don't obey without question, then I'm going to question that God too.”

Are you talking about now, in the Middle East?
“Is that not healthy, to at least listen, and then decide, rather than prejudge based upon what may be another example of miscommunication?”

Yes, I will listen, but I will compare what I hear with Scripture and Scripture will be the truth by which I measure words: Your words, my words, Jeff’s words, and preacher’s words, anyone’s words.

“You can proceed as you wish, of course, and that is fine with me, more power to you, but for me I desperately want to hear more from people in Russia, and China, or North Korea for that matter, one on one, so as to have the power in my hands, to ask vital questions, and to then find accurate answers even if the answer is silence.”

There are Christians in China and in Russia. Believers…Believers that have to worship and meet in secret. How do you know when you think you are hearing an average Russian or Chinese citizen’s voice that you are not hearing that of a covert operation to subvert the United States to be more communist than we are?
"Purge, Purge, Purge until all that is left are the very lowest and very powerless left so that they cannot rise against their oppressors?"
That is the bait and switch routine.
Purge or pogrom is done, and it is called economic equality.
So what is it?
What I was trying to say is that purging is done in the name of economic equality as in anything that does not fall in to the group of equality is purged in order to get to a group that is economically equal. What I was trying to say is that purging is done in the name of economic equality as in anything that does not fall in to the group of equality is purged in order to get to a group that is economically equal. I am saying that Criminals use that method to give the people a hope of getting them out of the economic misery only to heighten the misery and suffering. I am saying that when I watched the Spain clip back from WWII, social programs were put into place, those programs could not be paid for, the people rose up, and the communists purged after they took away the proletarian’s arms. Only the workers could be armed. What are the criminals doing now? They are taking a bankrupt country and breaking over the back of social programs and it is not going to work and people are going to get upset about it. I think that is why Ron Paul’s message of Liberty and Responsibility is needed. To give another hope other than one in a government with empty promises.
“Because you refuse to listen you may not see how someone in Russia has been told a whole different set of lies that include, hey, here you go, this is "Capitalism", coming to a theater near you, we give you Uncle Joe, to save you from the other guy with the mustache, just how good is our version of capitalism, hold on, wait for it, 20 million dead later, and that counts up only the ones ordered to be "equal", and then we get our capitalism?”

I do not understand what you mean by someone in Russia being told this is Capitalism and 20 million dead later they get capitalism and that uncle joe is saving them from uncle sam. But now I am thinking of the involuntary word…so are you saying involuntary capitalism? i.e., fascism? That is what happened in Spain. The Fascists saved Spain from the Communists…at least that is what I got out of the Griffin Spain clip.
"Socialism refers to an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy."
Someone unable to recognize how those words are false, and false on purpose is a danger to Liberty.
Then, I am a danger to Liberty, because I do not understand why those words are false. What is false about those words?
“In context the concept of actually listening to about half the population of the world, just in case they may have validity to exist, might be a step in the direction of preventing World War III.”

Why do you say validity to exist. Doesn’t everyone have validity to exist?
“In other words: the power of authority is no more a THING commanded by you, as it is a THING commanded by the head Capitalist in America named Barack Obama, or Ben Bernanke, or whoever is actually pulling the strings on the POWER in America which is, as far as any person on the planet is concerned, a capitalist POWER.”

I think we are a capitalist/socialist/communist/fascist society. Look here:

Obama has weather underground connections. We have been Sovietized. And we do not even know it. Obama is not the head capitalist. I see him as a socialist.

“I'm guessing again, but not only that, this person is an agent of the devil because God is unknown to this person in any way shape or form whatsoever: completely helpless on top of being absolutely dangerous?”

When someone denies God they are in darkness. Jesus said these words:
Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

“The point I hope to transfer to you intact is the point at which you imagine someone almost exactly like you living in Russia, or China, and the only difference is the labels used, and that person is as reluctant to listen to anything you have to say, as you are reluctant to hear what they have to say, because of the deception employed by those who profit by deception which is the cover for violence, which is, in one word: evil.”

Then why do people fee to the united states when their countries are overrun by criminals? Why do people want to come here for freedom? Why do people want to come here when their lives are threatened by their own governments? How do you know that people in the east view us as bad because we have a capitalist form of society? Why did the East Germans want to escape to West Germany? Is your understanding of capitalism is different from my understanding. This is what I think it is: “Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of capital goods and the means of production, with the creation of goods and services for profit.[1][2] Elements central to capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, and a price system.[3]”

What is wrong with that?
“Here is my point exactly. What good did it do?
Here again:
The Bill of Rights
No resistance, no Bill of Rights. “
I disagree somewhat, our form of government respected the bill of rights. Other countries have bill of rights but their governments did not respect the rule of law but are rather a law unto themselves…which our government is quickly becoming..

Right now I am pretty tired and I feel like I am talking in circles and not making sense. If I understand what you are saying is that you want to talk to people from the East to see if there are some who also recommend a voluntary style of socialism. I find that an interesting proposition. However what is the preoccupation with socialism?

Australia is a socialist country from what I understand. Is their style voluntary?
“But seriously, thing about it, again, a collection plate in church, that is collectivism. An insurance policy is collectivism. A bank is collectivism. A corporation funded by stock shares is collectivism. Individuals, in each case, transfer power to one fund, one collection. So if everyone is doing it, then why does everyone hate it so much?”

Yes and as long as those things are voluntary there is no problem. However, insurance is no longer voluntary. I have to buy auto insurance, I have to have medical insurance…Some churches demand that membership include contributing. I happen to have Lockheed Martin stock because I was a Lockheed employee…I saw what they were doing this week. The government gave them a contract to make planes and those planes are being given to Egypt. That stock is in a 401K plan. Look what is going on with my company sponsored “retirement.” And I hear I can’t even get my money anymore unless I show some kind of hardship. So I would say involuntary collectivism is a problem. And somehow things that start as voluntary seem to turn involuntary…by design? Because Criminals bait and switch? I think so maybe.

What do you think of this: G. Edward Griffin: Individualism & Capitalism vs. Collectivism & Monopolies: ?

G Edward Griffin has a video that you and I watched last year about collectivism:

Can collectivism be voluntary? Can voluntarism exist without individualism?

I probably need to read science of society. I’m not sure that I finished it.