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Comment: You fall into another trap...

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You fall into another trap...

Here you make the mistake that "we should be like other countries":

"we are asking for very reasonable, common sense policies on immigration that almost all nations take for granted. none of the countries our immigrants hail from believe in open borders."

That's the same argument used for central banks - "everyone else has one."

Then, you go on to call my position "stupid" - like that approach will ever win any debates. You say:

"it is a stupid position because it achieves the precise opposite end it aims for. it will reduce individualism and liberty, increase nationalism and collectivism..."

To the contrary, policies sought through government "achieve the precise opposite end [they] aim for" - such as the ones you are promoting. Through this entire discourse you have made the implied assumption that a government policy exists that can "secure the borders." That is a fallacy and destroys your argument altogether.

You will NEVER prevent immigration if it is demanded in some way by the market. Thinking so is naive. You will only continue to waste taxpayer money.

If you can provide no practical government solution that would work - and none exists, imo - then the argument is moot.