Comment: Certainly we feel the same

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Certainly we feel the same

And yes the rule followers have a rudimentary morality, but I disagree it's because they just want to avoid punishment for most of them. They can make complicated moral decisions when the need arises or when it has a high cost to them not to. Of course some people do just want to avoid punishment, ie criminals, but they aren't the rule. Most people have just internalized their programming to obey authority. They are convinced that legislative law is morality. They thus have an important part of their humanity anesthetized.

Though I submit that as legislative law diverges from natural law more people see that what the rulers call 'the law' has nothing to do with justice, and as they realize the whole thing is a sham and laws are just a really good tool at plundering your neighbor, more people will become actual criminals.

If the game is rigged and there is no justice you see in the system, it's not irrational to give up and become part of the corruption. This is in fact a common theme among criminals. They understand the government is just the biggest gang.

So anyway we know some things. We know the definitions of some things, and we see they exist. Lets look at rights, which are a type of moral entity.

We know that rights are universal and unalienable, because that is the definition. That tells us something about them. They must be negative because if they are not they can't be universal. They cannot apply to material objects directly because then they could not be unalienable. We know everyone has them, we can observe a universal trope that everyone does feel they have a right to life, liberty, and property. We can see analogs in the animal world, animals protect their life, resist the cage, and fight over their 'property', territory, food, mating privileges. They do seem to know the concept of theirs, of property. So these things seem to in fact be natural.

So what are they? I think rights are the universal and unalienable moral right to action. We know that outside pathological or otherwise tail cases everyone has a natural trope to act against being caged, killed, or robbed. You can try to condition them to accept domestication, and you may have greater or lesser success, and that success will depend on the scale of depredations you regularly inflict but ultimately even the bad guys do not accept the livestock will get on the cattle car willingly if they know what it is. Police expect people to want to run. Taxmen expect attempts to evade taxes.

We behave, and the bad guys certainly behave, as if everyone might at any moment decide to act on their moral authority to resist aggression.

Thus this is a morality which is not only apparently universal but also unalienable. I think the concept of natural rights is simply a recognition of this inherent fact about humanity. You can tell someone they don't have a right to resist you. But no matter what you do their natural morality to resist you may assert itself anyway.

This nature could be of divine origin, or from evolution, as I myself think. I think natural rights are evolutionary and can be mapped onto survival and mating behaviors, which would be a reason for their universality.

If evolution is false, they may be from god. But origin aside, we can see they exist.

Ok that's enough for now:)

But you're right, ultimately, even if we can show that natural rights, and natural law, are real things, in the sense math and logic and economics is real, and I think we can, it doesn't mean we still don't have to convince people that a moral code based on them, ie the NAP, is superior to an artificially imposed system of morality such as statism and rule following.

But I think part of that work of convincing is showing that they are natural and human. I think it can be shown that statist morality is conducive to slavery, murder, predation and human misery. Collectivist morality, viewed objectively is only of value to oppressors and predators.

I think that natural morality can be shown to optimize human co-operation and happiness. Natural morality is the morality of abundance and peace. And it's not accidentally so.

More later:)