Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews pay visit to Hamas in Gaza
Submitted by MikeLawson on Sat, 07/25/2009 - 09:35
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/arti...
excerpt:
A group representing an anti-Zionist, ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect have paid a brief visit to the Gaza Strip to express their support for Hamas.
The trip was the first by members of the Neturei Karta sect since Hamas – whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel – seized control of the tiny coastal territory two years ago.
The Orthodox group's opposition to Zionism comes from the belief that Jews should not have their own state until the coming of the Messiah and has seen them embrace Israel's enemies – including President Ahmadinejad of Iran, whom Neturei Karta members famously hugged at a Holocaust denial conference in December 2006.
My two cents...
IMHO, there is nothing wrong with one "picking and choosing" what religious beliefs are valid and being one's own interpreter of a given religious doctrine in part or whole. If one argues that one should believe this or that religious doctrine for *any logical reason*, then one is "picking and choosing" and "being one's own interpreter" of religious doctrine.
Humans are endowed with the ability to reason for a reason. Let's not give up on the concept of the logos just yet.
Thank you for your two cents.
Picking and choosing is Protestant. That is why there are 26,000 Protestant denominations. Lots of Picking and Choosing.
Hey its a free country. My idea is to show that Judaism cannot function using that method. And if it cannot function then either G-d gave a different method or the whole thing is flawed and a fairy-tale.
If Talmud is true. . .Xtianity cannot follow.
If Judaism is false. . .Xtiianity cannot follow.
Basically, either way you get the same result.
The
Talmud is a wicked book. It is in no sense "true." Biblical Judaism is not false, just obsolete. Either way Jesus is your Judge.
Interesting
Statement: Talmud is a wicked book.
This is an emotional statement. No source material to support it,
Statement: It is in no sense 'true'
Well, if what you are saying is correct us Jews wandered for 4,000 years like mental retarded monkeys not being able to understand what it work is, how to kosher slaughter or make phylacteries. History probably would find your statement to be inaccurate.
Statement: Biblical Judaism is not false. . just obsolete.
Here we have another value judgment with no supporting proof. You probably do not even read Hebrew or could not even read one page of mishnah. Do you have anything to comment on Sun Tzu since you do not speak Chinese? Or Pablo Neruda since you do not speak Spanish?
Statement: Jesus is my judge
Most Xtians when speaking to an educated Jew start shaking in the corner repeating verses. The bottom line is your faith, however well meaning, is a fallacy just as the earth being flat was. If you were an alcoholic, lonely and it the father figure in the sandals get you through the day then please don't question it. Noone want to take away your emotional support system.
Us Jews know more than you do about our book. And the Roman Catholics and Calvinists have a better argument to true Xtianity then the sectarians of Protestantism. Even they can't answer the holes that we Jews find in the Xtian system.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christian_Credibility...
What is the purpose of your
What is the purpose of your organization?
It is misleading to refer to Neturei Karta as an organization. Neturei Karta is the term used to describe those Orthodox Jews who have maintained the traditional Jewish opposition to Zionism.
What is the basis of your position?
Jewry always viewed their exile as a Divine punishment for sins. Thus, exile is the result of metaphysical forces. It cannot be rectified by force, political efforts or any other this worldly means. Jews yearn for the Biblically promised redemption of the entire world to be ushered in by the Heavenly appointed Messiah. This yearning manifested itself over the centuries only in prayer, good deeds and a spirit of penitence. This is the only Divinely sanctioned methodology to end the punishment of exile. Zionism, at root, rejected this sacred view of history. Its vision was and is limited to material cause and effect. Hence, to the Zionist mind -- which has come, tragically, to dominate much of contemporary public discussion -- exile was simply the result of Jewish political weakness. Their solution was to establish political sovereignty over the Holy Land. In order to do so they agitated politically and eventually launched a military conquest in order to capture the Land. Blind to both Torah imperatives and elementary justice they disregarded that a people was already inhabiting the land. Thus, their efforts required the dispossession those who had lived there for centuries, the Palestinian people.
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/FAQs/index.cfm
Orthodox Jews opposed to Zionism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeB3QhX2RI
Lively debate Torah vs
Lively debate Torah vs Talmud. Gets interesting around 2:25.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3387238221073800025
Ignorance
Here is the bottom Line.
The Torah (Five Books of Moses) cannot self-interpret. If we place ourselves 3,000 years before Xtianity and try to interpret the text of Moses via Sola Scriptura's methodology the whole religion falls apart.
There is no definition or work.
There is no definition of methods of slaughter.
There are no instructions on how to make mezzuzot and tefillin.
There are now vowels to read Hebrew. (Torah scrolls have no vowels)
So either two scenarios are plausibles.
A) The religion is a fairytale
B) There is an Oral Torah to provide definitions and a functional lexicon. This is what the Talmud is.
Here is the problem. If you accept the definitions of terms in the Oral Torah (Tribe, what is a Jew, what is kosher, etc.) then it is impossible to accept Xtianity since based on the Talmud Jesus does not qualify as a legitmate member of the tribe of Judah. He is a tribeless Jew.
So a Xtian is caught between rock and a hard place. He can deny the Ora Torah/Talmud yet in doing he undermine Judaism. This in turn undermines Xtianity and its definitions of Messiah since half the NT relies that a valid Judaism exists.
Or he can accept the Oral Torah (Vowels, definitions) and in doing he rejects the contradictions the NT makes to these definitions.
The only way out structurally is for a Xtian to claim de post facto that the Oral Torah is corrupt and he can pick and choose what he believe to be true. By doing so the Xtian has regulated doctrinal authority to himself alone (Papism) and established himself as interpreter.
This is why Jews reject Xtianity. It is structurally and theoretically flawed. . .much like science that shows the world is flat. Upon detailed review we know its round but how can you convince people based on logic when the believe in a religion that rejects logical inquiry.
What’s the difference
What’s the difference between Talmud, Mishnah, and Torah?
All these different terms do get confusing! Here is how Judaism defines them:
Talmud
Orthodox Jews believe that G-d gave Moses additional instructions that were not written down. Another name for the Talmud is the Oral Torah. When, in the 2nd century, these laws were finally written, the document became known as the Mishnah. The next few centuries added some commentary – this additional commentary is the Gemara. The Mishnah + the Gemara = the Talmud.
There are actually two versions of the Talmud – the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. Since the Babylonian Talmud is more extensive, it is to this version that people refer when speaking generally of “the Talmud.”
While the Talmud does provide valuable insight from thousands of years of sages, it is not Scripture. It is not infallible, and it is not a law we MUST follow. But it makes a very interesting read!
Mishnah
See above. The Mishnah is the Talmud, written down. It is divided into 6 sections, called sedarim (orders). These are Zera’im (Seeds), Mo’ed (Festival), Nashim (Women), Nezikin (Damages), Kodashim (Holy Things), and Toharot (Purities).
Torah
I think we all know what the Torah is. It is the inspired Word of G-d, given to Moses on Mount Sinai. The Torah encompasses the first five books of our Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy (B’Reisheet, Shemot, Vayikra, B’Midbar, and D’varim).
http://welightthecandles.wordpress.com/resources/whats-the-d...
Cognitive Dissonance
You ignore the logical results of your reasoning
A) You accept the Five Books of Moses as given from G-d to Moses
B) You accept that essential items (definitions, lexicon, methods) ARE MISSING from the Text
You cannot pick and choose what items from the Talmud fit your own preconceived personal agenda and presuppositions.
Your method is analagous to Neoconservatives claiming that they are the true preservers of Liberty and they in turn quote various Founding Fathers to support their beliefs while omitting others that do not suit their de post fact agenda. Xtianity is to Judaism as Neoconservatism is to the Founding Fathers on a theoretical hermeneutic basis.
That method of interpretation that places you as the reinterpreter and authority to decide what is and what isn't is true.
You accept the whole thing or throw out the whole thing. . .there is no picky choosy.
Same with Founding Fathers. . .you either accept their definition of liberty or you don't. There is no 'well. . . .I like liberty but I think we should reinterpret the constitution this way de post facto.'
My question is. . . .if the Talmud is not correct. . .how do you know which parts are and which parts aren't. Are the vowels wrong? Is the definition of work wrong? By what objectively do you know.
Your claim to supersede Torah via the New Testament is the same claim in theory to the Book of Mormons overiding the New Testament. Retroactive theological doover.
So if you do not accept the Book of Mormon. . .why should I accept the NT?
And then there is the factor that we did come first. . . .and have a statistical advantage to understanding our book before the Non-Jew came around and told us what it meant since they were not at Sinai.
Let's see...
should I pick black or white? Hmmmm....I like grey, but that is not an option. Well, like a good sheep I pick 'black'.
I think you may be confused,
I think you may be confused, I did not write it, I merely posted it. You may want to go to the referenced link and leave your comment there.
You stated the following which has me confused, because no where in what was posted was there any mention of the New Testament.
Your claim to supersede Torah via the New Testament is the same claim in theory to the Book of Mormons overiding the New Testament. Retroactive theological doover.
Response
First, I want to say I appreciate your cordial responses and I enjoy this discussion with the upmost respect.
The ideas or concepts I am trying to convey is the following:
A) True Orthodox Judaism is a complete systematic method. The Five Books of Moses are literally given by G-d letter by letter word for word. They are not inspired which may imply a human source and/or fallibility.
The Talmud is the methodology and lexicon by which one analyzes and interprets the text given by Moses. The theoretical method is called halacha and that method (like the scientific method) provides the proper way to arrive at the correct conclusions regarding any issue in the text.
B) The representation of Judaism as shown in the Gospels and Epistles is DEFINITIVELY NOT Judaism. I personally would not follow the Judaism of the New Testament because what it shown in the NT text is definitively a false presentation of Torah ideas and concepts. Paul demonstrates an ignorance of halacha. To be honest, my 10 yr old kids know more about Judaism then the person who wrote the epistles.
C) It is logical to state that if we accept that G-d spoke to Moses we soon find that there is missing information in the text (definitions, cases, pragmatic methods of application). The Talmud provides this information and the methods of interpretation. Thus we have a complete system given by G-d. . .one written and the second oral. Without the oral system we are akin to reading the constitution without the founding fathers. We would be in no-mans land. This is why there is one Orthodox Judaism and 26,000 Xtian denominations. Athough our groups are different we all accept the same system. Torah and Halacha.
D) If one accepts the Talmud as a whole unit then it is impossible that Xtianity can come from Judaism. They are two completely different systems that are incompatible. On a theoretical basis their application of Protestant methods of understanding the Bible demonstrates a flawed method when applied to Torah. You cannot apply Sola Scriptura to the five books of Moses.
E) When you read a book, do you start from the beginning or do you read the end? My premise is that if you study Judaism from Jewish sources and understand the system then you will logically infer that Xtianity cannot follow. Xtians are essentially taking a square peg and ramming into a round whole without doing the necessary homework.
F) As for the Mormon comment. Mormons believe that their text is a 'New' revelation that provides a new authority to interpret prior texts (e.g., New Testament). Does Mormonism logically follow Xtianity or is it a new system? This is analgous to Judaism and Xtianity. Xtianity cannot logically come out of Judaism, therefore it creates the idea that the Talmud is 'corrupted' so it can invalidate the source material that disproves it. Is your adherence to Xtianity based on logic and reason or is it based on your emotions? Why are you not a Catholic? Is it based on logical ideas or emotional ones?
I cannot make logical inferences based on emotions. Math is not about emotion. Xtianity is akin to a complex equation whose symbols are wrong.
Zionism
Torah does no support Zionism as establish by Herzl.
However, I would never meet and support people who attack Jews (Hezbollah, AL-Aksa, etc.). People have a right to defend their lives and property. So my question is, why does Gaza not lay down the arms and say lets stop? Because in their Islamic Sharia mindset they are religously obligated to destroy the Jewish State.
I do not see Jordan bombing Israel. And they don't won't the Islamic Gazans in their country. Neith does Egypt want the Muslim Brotherhood.
Neturei Karta are fools. Religous Jews yes but morons who are trying to get publicity for their little sect.
Here is an example:
No American would speak and dialogue with individuals who want to attack or bomb US civilians in the Phillipines. Regardless of the history of the US presence there (right or wrong) we do not go around calling for peoples destruction.
bump
for a healthy exchange of opinions.
British MSM can print an article like this why not US media?
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."
-- Patrick Henry
___________________
Jake Towne✌Stop The War✌Money Bomb March 29
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/128960
British MSM can print an
British MSM can print an article like this why not US media?
Good point. Not only will you not find articles like this in the US, you also will not get any healthy discussion. You only have to watch how fast this thread gets moved down the line into obscurity on the second and third page, etc..
WHAT IS THE NETUREI
WHAT IS THE NETUREI KARTA?
Neturei Karta opposed the establishment of and retain all opposition to the existence of the so-called "State of Israel"!
Neturei-Karta is the Aramaic term for "Guardians of the City. The name Neturei-Karta originates from an incident in which R. Yehudah Ha-Nassi (Rabbi Judah the Prince) sent R. Hiyya and R. Ashi on a pastoral tour of inspection. In one town they asked to see the "guardians of the city" and the city guard was paraded before them. They said that these were not the guardians of the city but its destroyers, which prompted the citizens to ask who, then, could be considered the guardians. The rabbis answered, "The scribes and the scholars," referring them to Tehillim (Psalms) Chap. 127. (Jerusalem Talmud, Tractate Hagiga. 76c).
The name was given to a group of Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who refused (and still refuse) to recognize the existence or authority of the so-called "State of Israel" and made (and still make) a point of publicly demonstrating their position, the position of the Torah and authentic unadulterated Judaism.
The group was founded in Jerusalem, Palestine in 1938, splitting off from Agudas Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel was established in 1912 for the purpose of fighting Zionism. Gradually lured by money and honor they sold out to the "Golden-Calf" (see Exodus, XXXII) of Zionism. Those who wanted to maintain their faith and continue the struggle against Zionism, dissociated themselves from Agudas Yisroel and associated parties.
Over the years, a number of Neturei Karta activists and followers settled outside of Palestine. Some of the reasons that these individuals abandoned the country in which they and their families had lived for many generations (having lived there many years prior to the establishment of the illegitimate so-called "State of Israel") include; ideological refusal to live under the illegitimate heretical "Israeli" regime, them being exiled by the Zionist government for their insistence of remaining independent of the illegitimate heretical regime or them being unable to live a normal family life due to them and their families being persistently harassed, repeatedly incarcerated and many times even physically tortured by the Zionist police and agents. This dispersion resulted in the emergence of various Neturei Karta establishments on the broader international scene. These establishments include synagogues, educational institutions, publishing houses and organizations. The establishments in New York include three synagogues in Brooklyn (Boro Park and Williamsburg), three upstate, and organizations include the Friends of Jerusalem in NY, NY.
Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch. The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.
There are those who wish to play down the Neturei Karta and its' Torah-true beliefs. This has been attempted many a time by stating that the Neturei Karta is a minority group and that compared to other Jewish groups the Neturei Karta aren't even noticeable in terms of number.
The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta. Although it is true that the number of families which could be classified as Neturei Karta members or activists per-se is relatively small (several thousand), the number of Orthodox Jews who believe in the anti-Zionist ideology which Neturei Karta is known for, number in the hundreds of thousands.
Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law.
All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.
Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.
Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.
Neturei Karta forbid any participation with the so-called "State of Israel" or any of its subsidiaries. Neturei Karta followers do not participate in "Israeli" elections nor do they accept any aid from "Bituach Le'Umi" (Social Security), and the educational institutions of the Neturei Karta reject any form of financial support from the so-called "Va'ad HaYeshivos" (equiv. to Department of Education).
The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances. Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.
The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism.
The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.
Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.
According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way. In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.
Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.
The world must know that the Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!
http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/index.cfm