Joining a Miltia is a Poor Means to an End.
I totally respect other militia members here. You are courageous, intelligent and have the capacity to demonstrate self-reliance. Unfortunately, joining a militia is a poor means to an end. Here is why I won't be joining the militia:
- you can't advocate peace through a barrel of a gun.
- you immediately lose half your audience at the very thought of militia.
- a ton of energy is wasted making up for lost credibility ground can be better used on supporting specific goals.
- taking somebody's life is not an acceptable means to resolve conflicts. murder, even in the defense of liberty, is the ultimate bane to liberty in the first place.
- a militia is essentially an activist-group with guns, with guns being the main focus.
- mother teresa once stated that she would never attend an anti-war rally, but she would love to attend a pro-peace rally.
output
i am not saying militias are bad
but if it's peace and liberty is what you want then there is another way.
a way that just so happens to be a more accurate demonstrative of liberty.
Sigh!
Sigh!
You are confused: no one is advocating peace from the barrel of a gun. Militias protect the peace from those who would rob, steal, murder, and enslave them. IOW it is to protect your right to live peacefully. I hate to break it to you but some evil people do not give a flying F about your peace or your philosophy. If you don't protect it they will take it from you and your loved ones.
Who cares it's always a small percentage who do the heavy lifting. It was only 3% who fought the American Revolution and defended everyones rights.
See above. Why waste energy on those who prefer slavery!
So how do you think liberty was obtained in the first place? Yeah guns aren't good for anything oh yea excpet winning and preserving freedom against those who would oppress. I guess you think the founding fathers who fought to preserve your peace are murderers? Sigh!
A militia is a group of people with a mutually vested interest in protecting their way of life from those who would take it from them.
Yeah well mother Teresa owes a debt to those who fought to preserve her freedom and way of life...
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Pacifist boys, a what you
Pacifist boys, a what you gonna do, what ya gonna do when they come for you?
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*****
"I truly wish that real life would no longer surpass the worst excesses of my nightmarish imaginings... Arthur Silber **
Perhaps you misunderstand the purposes of a militia
It does not exist to effect political change.
It exists to defend the lives, liberty, and property from those who would attempt to kill, enslave, and plunder.
I am not a member of any 'militia' group other than by fact of being between the ages of 16 and 65 and of sound mind and body.
If I joined such an organized group, it would be for one purpose and one purpose only: to fulfill my duty to defend my country from its government.
Policy doesn't enter into it. That is why I am active in Libertarian Party activities in my state.
The LP serves on purpose, a militia, a different one. If you join or form a militia for the wrong reason, then you ARE a threat to peace and stability and this original post is correct. I would say such groups are few and far between and that most gun owners correctly understand the purpose and proper use of force.
A miltia can choose whatever tools and methodologies
it wants to, to reach and achieve their objective. Do you think a militia is going to come and check with you to see if it's ok if they want to use the internet?
A modern militia is not going to fight with muskets and grape shot, a modern militia is going to use every tool, device and technology available including informational warfare and voter registration!!!
The most effective militia would be one that uses
every available means, devices, tools and strategies at their disposal. This would include:
1. Wisdom to assess the goals, various strategies and opposition.
2. Education of the highest degree including extensive knowledge of history and the constitution.
3. Political savvy, activism and communication skills to try to first effect change within the existimg system, (like RP).
4. Military means withing the rights of the constitution and law, just in case.
I totally agree that joining
I totally agree that joining a Militia is a bad idea, but for different reasons. It's bad because it makes you an easy target and easy to find. What we need is an army of secret freedom fighters all acting alone and with no connection to any organizations or groups. Do a search on "Secret Freedom Fighter" and download a copy of the book. Then be one!
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freedom fighters
viva la ron paul resistance!
Let's find our who is really living in a dream world with this
one question:
Considering all of the fire power and technology that the US military has at it's disposal - Do YOU honestly think the militias could defeat the US military?
If the U.S. government went to war directly against the people
it would not be a fair fight. The government wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell. They simply do not have the manpower to pull off a complete lockdown and subjugation of all 300 some odd million people in this country. Especially not with almost 1/4 of them armed. If there was blatant military action against the people, the people in most cases would not hesitate to defend themselves and topple their local, state, and federal governments in their effort to secure peace.
Any government official who thinks martial law or outright war against the American people themselves is a viable and achievable goal is living a pipe dream.
Short answer - No.
Short answer - No.
Do I think it will ever come down to the use of violence or force? Again, the answer is "No".
The sad truth
“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded sense of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse... A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.” — John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), “The Contest In America,” Fraser's Magazine, February 1862
It's ok troy, I've got your back, LOL, uh, armed
with, um, strong appreciation for those willing to swim upstream. I think you make a good point; if a militia is focused at this time on firepower more than persuasion, the real target is missed.
Ralph Waldo below lists the qualities of his ideal militia, and his statement makes sense to me. Education comes first, because even if every neighborhood of this country bristled with militia, at this point in our society's evolution we could well just find ourselves in the midst of armed factions, gang warfare, and petty warlords.
Some of you DPrs might argue that would be better than being held down by the superpower leviathan we now face. Maybe so, but I wouldn't be motivated to fight for that alternative, as I am to fight the super leviathan before us in the here and now.
An it all depends on the specific situation.
The US military has enough technology and fire power to kick anybody's ass including all the militias put togeter. BUT, the question is - would the military follow orders and fire on US citizens or would they join the militias against the beast? That is the real question that even the "powers that be" do not know the answer!!!!
As I understand it, the military oath is to defend the constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic!
There are irrefutable examples of peaceful demonstrations workin
Gandi took the civil disobedience doctrine of Throeau and was very successful in India.
MLK, against overwhelming force, took Gandi's example and was very successful in using non-violence in the civil rights movement in the 1960.
Also after 10 years of mostly peaceful demonstrations by millions, the young people of the 60's brought about the end to the Vietnam war.
The problem now is that the PWB saw their mistake, did away with the draft, disallowed the showing of dead soldiers returning home and bought up the main stream media.
So what worked in the 60's may not work this time because the parameters have changed! However, what Washington said about arms being the teeth of liberty still holds true today.
Owning a gun is the greatest thing you can do for freedom
Simply by owning a gun you are spreading more liberty and freedom around the world than by all the talk and protesting of a million people.
Owning a gun automatically makes you a free individual and your ability to defend places a cautionary umbrella over the nearby populace.
Once you're a gun owner it doesn't matter what you call yourself, you're a target of the state and world-wide tyranny. Gun owners all recognize this.
The best way to ensure the most peaceful and free world is to get people to buy guns and use them.
Every person on this planet that owns a gun multiplies the freedom of us all and is more of a thorn in the NWO's side than a 1000 Ron Pauls.
============================
Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
irrelevant
what does this have to do with joining a militia as an appropriate measure to spread liberty?
your liberty is inherent. you were born with it. you weren't born with a gun in your hand. guns, like any tools, are not a necessity to liberty. therefore, you can safely stop looking for something outside of yourself to attain liberty. you do not have to join a militia to achieve freedom. there is nothing outside of yourself to "get"
most people believe they have to "have" things like money in order to "do" things that make them finally "be" something like happy. but this is a fallacy. you do happy first. Then, because you are happy, you find you are doing things that happy people do, and the have comes naturally.
so you are demonstrating a similar fallacy. in that you believe you have to "have" guns or militia first, in order to "do" liberty in order to make yourself "be" free. but you are free first and foremost.
so it's not have -> do -> be
it's be -> do -> have
You can't "do" happy if you are dead or in a FEMA camp.
No one is saying you have to be materialistic to be happy. But try staying happy while your kids are taken from you, they are being injected with killer microchips, or vaccines, you are made to work and toil for those who will not, etc. etc. Try remaining happy while you are beaten and fed like a dog while working in a concentration camp. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it sure is a hell of a lot easier if you were able to kill the bastards who tried to put you in there in the first place.
Fema Camp Fun!
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
and
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
"I truly wish that real life would no longer surpass the worst excesses of my nightmarish imaginings... Arthur Silber **
Freedom and Liberty are not really the same thing
Freedom is a state that comes from being secure in your Life, Liberty and Property. Freedom is not itself, your liberty.
Liberty is the rightful authority you have to exercise certain judgment and take certain action to sustain your life and pursue your own happiness. You have that authority, and it is right that you do, BECAUSE only YOU have the responsibility for your own safety and happiness.
A gun is merely a tool. It is a tool of self defense. While there are many other tools of self defense, many are not adequate when faced with someone else who has a gun and intends to do you harm.
The sad fact is that evil men who are armed kill the good ones who are not with monotonous regularity.
A man "who seeks to remain both unarmed and free, wants what never was and never could be." (I don't recall the source of that one)
In the sense that Liberty = Freedom, then a Gun = Freedom, because owning a gun is one of your liberties you have because of your responsibility for your own defense. Without it, you cannot be free.
You're not free if you can't defend it
You're born alive, but you only stay that way if you keep breathing.
There's a big difference between reality and New Age principles and you should get with it already.
You're going to have to snort a whole lot of incense if you want to BE free when they ram a chip up your ass at Camp FEMA.
============================
Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
if what is true about life
if what is true about life smells "new agey" to you then i'm afraid that is a further demonstration of how lost you are.
you are committing the same fallacies that socialists use when they say the ends justifies the means. militia is a utilitarian approach to freedom.
you say the ends justifies the means. but i think you should reassess your kantian logic. freedom is the only way to freedom.
Support "Oathkeepers" with thier outreach
*Read the mission and some of the testimonials...I think this is a great outreach to get behind!
**
Oath Keepers is an non-partisan association of currently serving military, veterans, peace officers, and firefighters who will fulfill the oath we swore to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God.
Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and we will not obey unconstitutional (and thus illegal) and immoral orders, such as orders to disarm the American people or to place them under martial law and deprive them of their ancient right to jury trial.
read full statement
http://oathkeepers.org/oa...
Here are a few testimonies
National Guardsman Stands Behind His Oath
My name is Christopher Davis I’m a former Arizona Army National Guardsman. I never served in combat and felt badly about that for a long time. But now I look at the Big Picture of global politics and feel more strongly then ever that I am lucky. What the duties of a soldier in combat are have never been blurrier. I feel our men are being exploited and no one is doing anything about it.
read full testimonial
http://oathkeepers.org/oa...
and another
Active Duty Soldier Speaks Up
I intend on following your organization closely while I am in Afghanistan. I want to see it grow and reflect that our military and law enforcement are heavily made up of patriots, not mercenaries, and who fundamentally understand that what is ours already is not the government’s or anyone else’s to give us.
in full here:
http://oathkeepers.org/oa...
USAF
http://oathkeepers.org/oa...
80 Year Old WWII Vet
http://oathkeepers.org/oa...
****
"I truly wish that real life would no longer surpass the worst excesses of my nightmarish imaginings... Arthur Silber **
You're living in a dreamworld--open up a REAL history book
* Force and violence are the fundamental backbone of government since government began.
* Without a loyal and powerful defense force a country quickly falls to invasion. We are no exception.
* The entire nuclear arsenal stopped the Cold War or WW3 would have already happened.
* How many people out there would kill or steal if they knew they could get away with it?
* It's the fear of imprisonment and violence that keeps the world in line.
* Guns are the backbone of modern defense. Without guns you have NO reliable defense.
* Every government relies on guns for security. You can't ever be taken as a serious replacement for the current government if you can't even provide basic security.
Now it's time for you to wake up because America (and most of the world) has been invaded by Globalist Bankers.
They now control the resources/military/police/media and soon to be health care and food.
Things are only going to get worse forever more unless they are stopped. IT WILL NEVER GET BETTER.
Read that again.
IT WILL NEVER GET BETTER UNLESS THEY ARE STOPPED.
IT WILL NEVER GET BETTER UNLESS THEY ARE STOPPED.
There is no such thing as a 'LOVE' Revolution and there never will be. The hippies tried it with millions and it got them no where.
You're either fighting corruption or you're allowing corruption to prosper.
These bankers are literally like serial killers. You can't make a serial killer stop killing with LOVE can you?
Put Mother Teresa in a room with the Manson Family and watch them gut her up.
Then I'll drop you in the same room and with a gun.
Would you put refuse the gun and preach love and change?
Yeah, maybe for the 30 seconds it took before they to ripped out your intestines and stabbed you to death.
============================
Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
There are historical examples of peaceful demonstrations working
Gandi took the civil disobedience doctrine of Throeau and was very successful in India.
MLK, against overwhelming forces, took Gandi's example and was very effective in using non-violence in the civil rights movement in the 1960.
Also after 10 years of mostly peaceful demonstrations by millions of people, the young people of the 60's brought about the end to the Vietnam war.
The problem now is that the PWB saw their mistake, did away with the draft, disallowed the showing of dead soldiers returning home and bought up the main stream media.
So what worked in the 60's may not work this time because the parameters have changed! However, what Washington said about arms being the teeth of liberty still holds true today.
Let's take this point by point
* Look at India today. They're worse than China and still run by the UK, which also runs the bulk of China's successful cities and inustries (and the NWO Bankers still run the communists).
* MLK was part of the communist party and thus another pawn of the NWO. Civil Rights were part of the NWO and the spread of communism. Are blacks really better off now than before? A quick look at South Central or any of the many many black slums says otherwise. We have a black President while black bodies pile up on street corners and in crack houses. Obama is nothing more than a black-faced tool to destroy and deceive others--especially blacks--including those in Africa. It's the same game all over again. Also look at the profits from illegal immigration. Racism is alive and well, it's just become a privilege of the rich.
* The Vietnam war was ended by Nixon/Rockefeller making deals with China and destroying American industry as we know it today. All those flower power idiots did was make a fool of themselves. Vietnam was basically nothing but a satellite of China which was also backed by the Soviets (which in turn was backed by the NWO bankers of the Rockefeller/Rothschild families). Bush Jr went to Vietnam to open up trade and industry with the US and said great things about Vietnam.
There's REAL History and there's the crap the NWO manufactures for the stupid sheep.
============================
Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
I don't agree with you interpretation of those events
how ever, that is not the main point.
Even Washington tried and hoped that negotiations with the British would work and saw that as the preferable way to settle the dispute. Why did he do this, the main reason was because he wasn't sure at all that the 13 colonies could defeat the British.
So here is the question rephrased for this day and time:
Considering all of the fire power and technology that the US military has at it's disposal - Do YOU honestly think the militias could defeat the US military?
re: dreamworld
having guns is dangerous
not having guns is more dangerous
i get that.
but you aren't paying attention to what i'm saying about spinning your wheels with the self-defeating "militia" mantra. wasting energy in a heated debate in words you can't define.
you aren't going to get a lot of people to join a militia because of its' focus on guns. sure, you are going to attract gun people, but those people have demonstrated that they aren't very good at activism because they're too busy defending their position.
most people want to actually accomplish their stated goals.
and we can achieve all our stated goals, especially if we stop calling it a militia. but even if you insist on the militia label, then i invite you to redefine the agenda and treat it like an activist group, instead.
YOU don't get IT
============================
Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
The ideal modern day militia would be a group that was
prepared to do all of the things to maintain the liberty the founding fathers envisioned - including:
1. educating people on the issues
2. voting and registering to vote
3 running for office or being actively involved
4. being part of a milita for insurance
Even Washington was hoping that King George would not keep oppressing the people to a point where they had no other choice but to fight. But it didn't happen.
of course
of course today's militia does none of those things.
And THAT is where your
And THAT is where your fundamental flaw in perspective lies.
You are confusing the violent "extremist" militia (dangled in front of you by hollywood and the media) with the community leaders who are concerned with protecting their communities and families by planning for disaster relief, political education, philanthropy, and civil DEfense.
Please, educate yourself and try not to confuse these two, mutually exclusive, ideals.
The meaning of "militia"
The word "militia" is a Latin abstract noun, meaning "military service", not an "armed group" (with the connotation of plurality), and that is the way the Latin-literate Founders used it. The collective term, meaning "army" or "soldiery" was "volgus militum". Since for the Romans "military service" included law enforcement and disaster response, it might be more meaningfully translated today as "defense service", associated with a "defense duty", which attaches to individuals as much as to groups of them, organized or otherwise.
When we are alone, we are all militia units of one. When together with others in a situation requiring a defensive response, we have the duty to act together in concert to meet the challenge. Those two component duties, of individuals to defend the community, and to act together in concert with others present, when combined with a third component duty to prepare to do one's duty and not just wait until the danger is clear and present, comprises the militia duty.
Read more here http://www.constitution.o...
You're very wrong...
Anyone 18-45 who is not in the Guard or active military is a member of thier state's militia, technically.
Whether you choose to go to a meeting or not doesn't change that.
So of course some members do all of those things.
reading these responses was pretty exasperating.
i didn't say i was against guns. i said i would never join a self-described "militia" for the specific stated reasons, above. it's counter-productive for precisely those reasons. because you are shooting yourself in the foot. i am not saying that it is morally wrong. i am merely noting that is is dysfunctional.
if you wanted to drive to San Jose, but started heading south toward San Diego, then you would be going the wrong way. But this isn't a lapse of morality. It is a lapse of functionality. So you aren't a bad person or anything if you happen to be heading south. But you would be going the wrong direction, given your stated goals.
you have to ask yourself. what are you trying to accomplish in the overall picture? Because you don't have to be a history major or a communications buff to realize that militias are not an effective avenue to wake up the masses.
gandhi, who was more enlightened and libertarian than the rest of us combined, reminds us that we must be the change we want to see in this world.
i think he's right.
Washington and Franklin were two of the wisest leaders
that have ever served this country - and they both risked their lives for this country. Here is what they had to say.
Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth. George Washington, 1776
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin, 1759
Militia's may be our last hope
duh
There is a very big difference
between opposing violent interventionist gov't policy, and refusing to defend yourself when attacked.
You may certainly refuse to defend yourself when under attack.
And you will get exactly what you expect from those attacking you, who don't care a whit about what you think, and will kill you without a second thought.
If you are waiting for somebody else to "give you liberty", then you are in for a mighty long wait, my friend.
You're gonna have to claim it and defend it against all comers, or you won't have it.
He made the statement
in the other militia thread that he " would much rather see the militia going around passing out flowers"
Obviously there is a disconnect here.
You can go ahead and pass out flowers, while some foreign troop sticks their gun barrel down your throat.
Myself, friends, and family will prepare to defend ourselves, while you run around playing Hari Krishna.
★★★★★★
http://www.documentarywir...
http://freedocumentaries....
for some reason
for some reason you equate non-violence to hari krishna's as if there was no in-between. this is precisely the type of linear thinking that clouds your judgment. for you, it's either militia's or bust. either/or. either your in the militia, or your a peacenik nut case.
Me thinks you`ve listened to to much left wing rhetoric and
politically correct word definition. Militia is a Constitutional term for the body of souls that make up "We the People". Maybe you`re from another country or your Government education is showing your ignorance.
Bush 1,Clinton,Bush 2, and O`bama are not Mother Teresa.
Only Dr. Paul could compare to Mother Teresa in compassion for his fellow citizens. He belives in the Militia, the others don`t.
"We have to spend money to keep from going bankrupt"
Joseph Biden VP , USA
A well regulated militia being necessary
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I think when you buy a gun, you're an automatic member.
When they used the word
When they used the word "regulated", I believe their intention was that the citizen could own what ever type of weapon was available to the military...if not better.
And the winner of the 'No-Prize' is.....
francistspunkle,
I hope that without offending you, I can get some info to sink into you. My son works for a company that repairs military equipment. He told me years ago that at any one time, one third of our equipment is in the field (hot spots), and one third is in transport to be repaired, and one third is being worked on. HOW much military equipment can we count on to defend the States? BTW, the term equipment covers, land, air, and sea.
I propose a hypothetical situation...You are a bank robber. Town one has a no guns allowed rule. Town two requires every person to be armed. Which bank are you going to go after?
And the winner of the 'No-Prize' is.....
it didn't, as I am still
it didn't, as I am still learning a lot about everything going on. so from what i think your saying is that the military being in the militia of those who want to keep liberty, they wouldn't have that military force that I thought, am i correct about this? and bank one.
Help spread the word about Oathkeepers!
Check out thier site, testimonials and outreach plans such as sending care packages to US troops along with information for them! Send info to your local police,sherrif and state National Guards etc...
Oathkeepers~Guardians of the Republic
http://oathkeepers.org/oa...
*****
"I truly wish that real life would no longer surpass the worst excesses of my nightmarish imaginings... Arthur Silber **
I totally agree....
Oath Keepers was a brilliant idea and a good organization...
Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death.”
– Patrick Henry, speech to the Virginia Convention
Constitutional Militia
Troy have you ever been to a Militia meeting? What is your definition of a militia? It sounds like you are talking about underground mercenaries with automatic weapons.
The Militia meetings I've been to do not advocate any of the assumptions or assertions you are making. In fact the leadership of our state militia is a-political meaning they do not push a party or agenda. These men and women are in it to serve their community, to bond with people of other common interests, to serve as ambassadors, first responders, and volunteer search and rescue teams. As a very last resort, the constitutional militia will defend with force if necessary.
Yes, militia-folk typically like to shoot guns and go play army man outdoors. But the men I've met in the militia are quite wise and tempered. Please recheck your "facts".
To each thier own...
good thing the founding fathers didn't think the way you do, however.
We'd still be a British colony.
We are under 'British'
We are under 'British' control.....learn about the banking system.
And the winner of the 'No-Prize' is.....find out at node 98787