Does the Constitution violate the Declaration of Independence?
Posted August 10th, 2009 by atrickpay
The DOI says that governments must be formed with the consent of the governed.
I don't know about you, but I don't recall ever being given an opportunity to consent/not consent to the Constitution. Do you?
output
As with any Corporation.
If you don't approve of their product, dump their stock. In this case, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Treasury Notes. However, if it goes bankrupt, they will just change the name, and continue to hold on to real assets, such as land, military equipment, ect...
What we need to do is take over the Corporation.
grant
That's what people are
That's what people are trying to do now "take over the corporation" by getting people elected to the corporation. How's it working? Any chance of control any time soon? Not likely!
What we need to do is expose the fraud so people will withdraw their power and substance from the fraudulent corporation. They run on the false belief of the people that they have some legitimacy despite thier dissatisfaction with them and the obvious corruption.
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How is people withdrawing in
How is people withdrawing in any significant number more likely than taking over the "corporation"? Neither are likely, but I can point to the number of Ron Paul Republicans running in 2010 and the success of H.R. 1207 as a positive step.
Don't get me wrong...
but is the DOI even legally binding?
CHA-CHING!
Absolutely it is natural law
Absolutely it is natural law illustrated!
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No, but I wish it was...
Things would be a lot cleaner in government.
I don't recall anyone
I don't recall anyone consenting me on whether I wanted to work for a living or not.
This is one heck of a
This is one heck of a thread!
You'd think the people here think they are smarter than James Madison.
Some are! Madison was a man
Some are! Madison was a man just like you and me not God.
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James Madison was not a God,
James Madison was not a God, he was a saint and a man without sin.
Yeah right and you know this
Yeah right and you know this how?
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The Founding Fathers have
The Founding Fathers have been deified.
If you truly want to be free
Go here and listen to the Denver Seminar and be prepared to invest about 18 hours of learning. What is the price of freedom? Be prepared to have your whole world shattered!
But remember the law is on our side!
http://www.moneyonaccount...
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End The Fat
59 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
If you participate in the
If you participate in the Government then you are deemed to consent to such government. Do you Vote?
A good article on how the Government obtains your consent to be governed.
http://www.hisholychurch....
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
Corporate governance apparently does not
UNITED STATES is a Corporation - There are Two Constitutions
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
"There can be only one permanent revolution - a moral one: The regeneration of the inner man."
—Tolstoy
Was it easier back then, then it is now?
Ever wonder why 'they' waited till now to usurp our Constitution and Declaration of Independence? I think there would have definitely been another revolution forty - fifty years ago. I believe there was a lot more integrity and morality back then.
http://www.best-otr.com/m...
It was usurped long before 40
It was usurped long before 40 or 50 years ago. and the War of 1812 was all about it. We lost Britain won and have ruled us ever since people just don't know. It started in 1792.
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End The Fat
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This is correct.
This happen shortly after we got rid of the 2nd national central bank.
The British burned as many constitutions as they can could find with the hidden 13th amendment.
It states:
The 13th Article of Amendment
to the original Constitution of the United States of America
“If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.”
The had this amendment silenced but it IS still enforced in the Republic, unfortunately 99% of the population still participate in the Democracy.
I reserve the right to govern myself.
The War of 1812, are you
The War of 1812, are you kidding me?
The War of 1812 was declared and fought under the rules of the US Constitution. James Madison observed all civil liberties, and did not make up any so-called "executive war powers". The war was also short and with very low casualties.
James Madison set a precedent that NEVER AGAIN would any president have an excuse to twist the Constitution during a war.
And as you know, liberty is always lost during war, not peacetime.
In regards to economics, the War of 1812 was responsible for great economic liberty, as it opened up the Mississippi river, the Great Lakes, the Atlantic ocean, and the West Indies to free trade.
We almost won, even.
Imagine North America now...
CHA-CHING!
Tough to say
One the one hand, statism weakens individuals (financially, mentally, physically, etc). So this 50 more years of statism hasn't helped in that respect.
But, we also have a mass communication device in the internet now.
Well, I just learned
we are not a country but a Corporation and it seems that is the case for a very long time. So, we have to start talking about business. Is the Constitution a business contract? Those people that are suppose to represent us, I have no clue what their real purpose is. I'm am pissed.
What is with all the game playing? We are nothing but movable dirt.
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Take a Good Look
At the preamble. The real founders were agents of the king and lawyers, so they understood the meanings of certain words, capitalization in reguards to legal issues. Look at how they capitalized the word "people". If you reference blacks law dictionary the word "people" is a ficticous enity.
Have you ever wondered why Ben Franklin made so many trips to England? Do you really think they were peace treaties? Ben Franklin also held title of "esquire". There were a few key players to the fiasco. They were the ones who prospered and owned hundreds of slaves. The rest were duped, those were the ones that lost it all. They got rid of them after they served they're purposes.
Look at how they worded the preamble. It was written for the CORPORATION. I would venture to say, they also had a pretty good grasp on contract law.
You don't apply force to a supposed freedom oriented document that establishes a newly "free" country.
Taxation was the first thing they wanted to establish! Article 1. It's right there.
They were liars. So of course history was written this way.
The constitution you are
The constitution you are refering to is not the original. You are right though the king had his agents in the mix from the begining. When Britain burned the Capital the original was taken and gone for ever. And that is when the one you describe began to come on the scene.
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59 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
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Did the original include
Did the original include taxation? Just curious.
What will really burst your
What will really burst your bubble is finding out that not only were they British agents, but they were from Mars also. It's freaky man!! You're not even really reading this right now. There's an evil genius controlling you and your thoughts. Oh, no! You're an agent too! Oh, the humanity!
Crazed anarchist, meet
Crazed anarchist, meet crazed conspiricist LOL
Well I don't consider the government a business
Why? Because it doesn't meet the definition of a business (business: organization that provides goods and/or services that individuals can purchase voluntarily).
The gov't that exists here does however meet the classical definition of the term government (government: an organization that rules the people within a specific geographic area by imposing taxes on them and by using brute force to require all individuals and organizations within its domain to obey its commands.)
Yes it does WE are the goods
Yes it does WE are the goods and services, cattle if you will, beasts of burden, or chattle property. They trade on our bonds based on our lives labors credit wealth property etc. and trade them on the open market. You have heard of the full faith and credit of the united states? Well thats you and me and everything we own and they have stolen it from us and live like kings off our backs. Trust me this rabbit hole goes much deeper then most can imagine!
I ordered my birth certificate recently and it came on bond paper with the fancy borders and says Midwest bank note in the left hand margin. Gee think there is something to it?
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End The Fat
59 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
I believe this to be true.
My reason being, many years ago I purchased stock outside my 401k. I had some extra cash, and had a hole burning my pocket. I recieved a letter from the stock company, I wasn't sure if I was suppossed to recieve that letter as it contained my "net worth" Listed right there in black and white.
I was shocked. Now wtf does that have to do with buying stock? hmmm.
When you didn't renounce your American Citizenship...
you consented.
How does one even do that?
I can do my own "citizenship renunciation ceremony", but what good does that do? The government's agents will still tax me and enforce their laws on me.
I would love to see
I would love to see that...
"The Futile Attempt of Renouncing Citizenship Ceremony"
Come watch me be futile, but with passion!
Go to the State Departments
Go to the State Departments website and read about Expatriation. You should be forewarned, Expatriation cannot be reversed. And you will lose ALL benefits of citizenship, including things like a passport.
The US Citizenship is a contract. In any contract, if BOTH parties agree, the contract can be canceled. The Attorney General will be deciding for the Government if they will cancel the contract you have with them. And you better know what your doing or they will deny your cancellation of contract.
Expatriation on the State Department Website:
http://travel.state.gov/l...
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
Well... they're the DRO charged with administering Justice in
the geographic region known as the USA.
Should you wish to escape their clutches. You must leave their turf.
Otherwise you will be using their 'protection' services and be entitled to pay up promptly.
I know what you're getting at, but it didn't answer
the specific question I posed...In any case, I was just posing it rhetorically to you, because to renounce one's "citizenship" (ie. to revoke "consent") and stay living on one's property is impossible.
It's not American
It's not American citizenship but UNTITED STATES citizenship.That is the Corporation You need to record an affidavit and some other documents rescinding all signatures and rebutting all presumptions of contract etc.
Start here and plan on about 18 hours of initial learning to get started. What is the price of freedom:
http://www.moneyonaccount...
----
End The Fat
59 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!
Get Prepared!
This is not entirely all
This is not entirely all there is to it. Your Parents entered you into a contract also. This contract was the Birth Cert. It created US Citizenship, and this Citizenship is a contract that your parents signed. Upon reaching the Age of Emancipation from your parents, then you agree to this contract, you consent, unless you contact the US Attorney General and file to cancel the Citizenship that your parents put you into. It is not a presumed contract, it was signed. There IS a presumption that you DO NOT want to rescind that contract if you do not Expatriate.
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
There is such a thing as
There is such a thing as implied consent. By not objecting to something it is implied you agree with it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's the way it works.
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Yes, there is "implied consent", but
is that the consent that is described in the DOC? Personally, I don't think so. I think the DOC is referring to explicit consent.
And if the DOC is referring to "implied consent", then I don't consider it a very liberty oriented document. For, it would mean that a group of thugs could rule you, and that if you didn't try and overthrow them (which could be extremely dangerous over course), that you somehow "consent" to them.
The Constitution was formed
The Constitution was formed with the consent of the governed.
The Confederation Congress called for special elections to ratification conventions. These elections engaged the entire electorate and selected the delegates for the ratification conventions.
All the newspapers around the country published the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and the anti-Federalist Papers. The people were well informed (unlike today, can you imagine a major newspaper publishing Federalist # 10, I can't).
In addition, the states, at the urging of James Madison, lessened the property holding requirements so that more people could vote.
Unlike the Declaration of Independence, which was dictated by a Continental Congress and never ratified by the People, the Constitution was ratified by the People.
reply
Yes, some people consented to it back at its inception. But, I'm talking about you and me tho, who are living today.
But, why did the DOI need to be ratified by people? It was just a philosophical document. It wasn't a governing document.
The DOI is indeed a
The DOI is indeed a governing document, it has never been repealed.
It is?
What are its governing powers?
No, he doesn't know what
No, he doesn't know what he's talking about. This isn't even about education as much as understanding basic interpersonal dynamics. The document is simply a statement. If you read it, it's not even written as giving orders or framing rules. It's not a governing document simply by the very fact that it's just a statement. If you want to put some legality to it, I guess you could say it's a resolution. But that's a stretch too because the group that framed it and voted on it was just some ad hoc group of rebels that simply proceeded with order and process instead of disorder and chaos.
Either way, the Constitution, technically was not consented by the governed when it was originally ratified. But legally and practically it was consented by the governed via the process outlined in the document. Was there corruption and politics and all that bad stuff involved in getting it ratified? Yes, there was some of that. Now how does this translate to generations afterwards. Again, technically, it doesn't. Technically, you are right. You have not been given the opportunity, even less so than the citizens back then who at least had the state conventions as some medium for their voice.
But the Constitution was just a badly written document, but quite good at an attempt for a first thing, a really freakin good attempt. What I mean is that the document simply doesn't address your question as well as a gazillion other questions. However, the probable logic and legal argument is that the constitution is the supreme law of the land once it was ratified. Hence, you are "stuck" in it. If you don't like it, your only option is to change it or revolt, as the declaration says.
Assuming you are right, what would you do?
The DOI governs us in the
The DOI governs us in the following ways:
1) we are no longer ruled by a monarchy or the British Parliment.
2) the principles of liberty are a legal guide for interpretation of gray areas in the US Constitution.
How do we know
The process? All we got is a bunch of elitists words. Good ole Ben held title of "esquire". All history is written by those who conquer.
How about the mountain men and those people way out there in the middle of no-where. Did they consent? How about the women and the children and the slaves, and the indians? Did they consent?
Someone please explain to me, how a contract can be binding if two parties do not mutually consent!
Governments are not
Governments are not contracts. You have been reading too much Rosseau. There is no such thing as a social contract. I am agast that socialist ideas are thriving here.
Thx for your perspective
What can we do? Well I think it comes down to the root job of educating people about the principles of liberty.
Educating people that this representative government is not consensual. And, also trying to get beyond the paradigm of representative government, and get them thinking about self-government.
Well, I was asking what you
Well, I was asking what you would do. I don't want it to go away. While I didn't directly consent to it, I like it and agree to it. This mentality is probably largely the mentality of most of the country and thus why you don't have revolution. Even if everyone were to learn and be educated about the problems with the federal government I don't believe people would want to get rid of the government. It's a good country and government with a ton of problems and it's a country with the abilities and means to deal with those problems and correct them. If it was beyond repair, that's something else and revolution would then eventually happen.