Ten Reasons Not to Abolish Slavery
Submitted by xntryk1 on Thu, 11/19/2009 - 09:10
in
December 2009 • Volume: 59 • Issue: 10
Ten Reasons Not to Abolish Slavery
By Robert Higgs
Slavery existed for thousands of years, in all sorts of societies and all parts of the world. To imagine human social life without it required an extraordinary effort. Yet, from time to time, eccentrics emerged to oppose it, most of them arguing that slavery is a moral monstrosity and therefore people should get rid of it. Such advocates generally elicited reactions ranging from gentle amusement to harsh scorn and even violent assault.
When people bothered to give reasons for opposing the proposed abolition, they advanced various ideas. Here are ten such ideas I have encountered in my reading.
1. Slavery is natural. People differ, and we must expect that those who are superior in a certain way—for example, in intelligence, morality, knowledge, technological prowess, or capacity for fighting—will make themselves the masters of those who are inferior in this regard. Abraham Lincoln expressed this idea in one of his famous 1858 debates with Senator Stephen Douglas: “[T]here is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
2. Slavery has always existed. This reason exemplifies the logical fallacy argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). Nevertheless, it often persuaded people, especially those of conservative bent. Even nonconservatives might give it weight on the quasi-Hayekian ground that although we do not understand why a social institution persists, its persistence may nonetheless be well grounded in a logic we have yet to understand.
3. Every society on earth has slavery. The unspoken corollary is that every society must have slavery. The pervasiveness of an institution seems to many people to constitute compelling proof of its necessity. Perhaps, as one variant maintains, every society has slavery because certain kinds of work are so difficult or degrading that no free person will do them, and therefore unless we have slaves to do these jobs, they will not get done. Someone, as the saying went in the Old South, has to be the mud sill, and free people will not tolerate serving in this capacity.
4. The slaves are not capable of taking care of themselves. This idea was popular in the United States in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries among people, such as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who regarded slavery as morally reprehensible yet continued to hold slaves and to obtain personal services from them and income from the products these “servants” (as they preferred to call them) were compelled to produce. It would be cruel to set free people who would then, at best, fall into destitution and suffering.
Knock Knock Knock...Hello? Anybody have eyes and a brain?
First of all the biggest slave operation in the world is America. With trillions of dollars worth of human energy going to the IRS -- automatically I might add -- So slavery was never abolished in the US. It was only accelerated an morphed into something alot more user friendly for the elite. Then there's inflation slavery.
But if you'd like something a little more "traditional" there is the greatest "pyramid" building in the history of mankind going on right now in the UAE -- Dubai. Makes the pyramids look like nursery school slavery.
Take a look:
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/740.html
The Last Hope Trader
Forensic Trading For Times of High Crime
"This Country Began As A Tax Revolt."
Looking at the last paragraph...
...I took that to be the point of this article, to draw a parallel between slavery and gov't by pointing out that these 10 reasons given by slavery abolition opponents are like the ones given by opponents of abolishing gov't as we know it.
*answers door* Great Post DaddyWarbucks
I loved the way you phrased that first paragraph; since I'm an individualist and don't believe in copyrights or intellectual property of anykind, I hope you don't mind me borrowing that, smile.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
OctoBox, What's your sign?
The Last Hope Trader
Forensic Trading For Times of High Crime
"This Country Began As A Tax Revolt."
Year of the Dog -- Cancer: Double Loyal and Double Home-Body
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
I'm a dog too.... see
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x115u4_triumph-the-insult-c...
The Last Hope Trader
Forensic Trading For Times of High Crime
"This Country Began As A Tax Revolt."
Gemini Dragons > ALL
Gemini Dragons > ALL
Sthomas: I'd be afraid to hand you a knife
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Good plan. Considering my
Good plan. Considering my name also means Twin Crowns or a Crowned Twin depending on how you look at it .. yea .. Year of the Dragon, Gemini, I'm pretty sure I must be the Anti-Christ.
Fear me.
Exactly
The pyramids are a great demonstration of what happens when a couple people get full control over a population. The pyramids are beautiful feats of architecture far ahead of their time, that serve absolutely no purpose. They were built to house the dead and yet not a single pyramid that hasn't crumbled into nothingness contains the bodies they were built to keep. Instead they sit empty, looted, and the pharaohs now adorn the insides of museums. They benefited neither the people who built them, those they were meant to house, nor the kingdom who dreamed them up, all fallen to invading Muslim hordes.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://will86aber.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/growing-the-econo...
Politicians today aim to grow our economy by burning our cities to the ground, instead they should take a lesson in economic theory.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://will86aber.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/growing-the-econo...
Politicians today aim to grow our economy by burning our cities to the ground, instead they should take a lesson in economic theory.
Free market capitalism never
Free market capitalism never would have built the Pyramids.
true, they were built with
true, they were built with slave labor.
Ventura 2012
That is what the 'drones' are told. There are those who know
better! ; )
http://www.mngop54b.org/
http://www.mnlg.org
http://www.therootsofchange.com
http://www.cc2009.us
http://articlesoffreedom.us/Coalition.aspx
Its Up To Us - Articles of Freedom - New Website! Thread:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/123543#comment-1330135
For Deeper Understanding here is what a delegate wrote:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/123897
The pyramids are just old; what's their function? House Mummies
Hide treasure?
Make movies around.
I prefer our modern buildings and the buildings that will come in the future.
The Lordes Church in France is amazing. Napolians Mansion, wow.
The pyramids are a cave-man's delight.
We are communicating near instantaneously accross the world -- right now; and I'm supposed to be amazed at some big stones.
I just saw Autobots (Transformers) destroy one of the pyramids and it looked "real" -- Now that's amazing.
"Alien Technology" -- hahahahahaha.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Let me explain a little...
about the pyramids to you. They are engineering feats of construction of the highest order. They are exact both mathematically and astronomically.
I've spent my entire life around construction, spent six years obtaining two architectural degrees, have worked in some of the best woodwork shops in this nation and put in my time at many different architectural firms, the one at which I am currently head of the production staff. So, there you have a little history as to why I'm upset that you have such low esteem for some of the greatest construction of all time.
Concerning age, function, form and use (which is different than) function, the pyramids are both staggering in scope and in excecution. Modern technology is indeed an asset and fascinating, but it does not negate the importance of ancient constructions as both material culture (an archaeologic distinction) and record of much knowledge we have yet to understand, lost to the passage of time. It has been clearly demonstrated that our modern machinery could not replicat the lifting power that the Egyptians, and much of ancient mankind - Carnac, Stonehenge, etc..were able to construct with, or devise means around. Your simplistic attitude to the foundations of this modern world are evidence of your shallow understanding of it.
I'd encourage you to pick up a few books on ancient architecture and give it a second look. Imagine how you'd level the base course of a 13 acre pyramid - Please tell me how you'd do it - no lasers either. Do you know how the egyptians did it? String and a trench of water surrounding the entire site. From that simple, yet ingenious method they leveled their starting courses as good or possibly better than we can pour the largest foundations and slabs today. Why, because our modern world stands on the shoulders of the innovation and critical thinking of those who have come before us. I'd urge you to reconsider your attitude toward that which you seem to not understand, or cast off as worthless, as it is the very foundation of your present, comfortable life.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
God's creation beat that!
God's way or the highway
but isn't man's creation...
just a continuation of God's creation? We are part of nature after all.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
*putting down spray can* So, don't put my name on the side?
Okay -- They are neat.
I'm not amazed at them.
I'm an Econ guy -- I see cost, effort, time, and human suffering -- for what purpose; to house some stuff.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Neither did slave labor.
I'd love to see how a bunch of guys with logs and rope moved the 1,000 plus ton Megalithic stones inside the base of the Pyramids, when with our modern technology and machinery still cant do that today.
http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/top50stones.htm
Many hidden secrets in history.
Perhaps the idea of the giants referred to in the Bible...
...and other ancient writings, isn't so laughable after all.
You might like this article
I hope so http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/20041001_en....
I never thought of the pyramids as symbol of slavery
I can't see them as anything else now.
Good point Sthomas
Only under two circumstances can slavery be justified
1. If somebody borrow 1 million dollars from another man, fly to Vegas, and lose all money in casino. Now he can't pay his debt. This man should work for his creditor until he pay back all the debt. If that takes his whole life, then let the justice be fulfilled.
2. If one nation launches a war to invade another country. The victim country has a good reason to fight back. If it wins the war, it has the right to enslave the invaders.
“History has never been dominated by majorities, but only by dedicated minorities who stand unconditionally on their faith.” --R.J. Rushdoony
“History has never been dominated by majorities, but only by dedicated minorities who stand unconditionally on their faith.” --R.J. Rushdoony
yup
I don't see a problem with this on the surface. Calvinist, care to elaborate on these points and defend them?
- jb
"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt"
It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the puni
*blinking in astonishment*
Literal slavery? Have you thought this through? Why are you posting at the DP? Do you understand the basic premises of libertarianism?
Who, your concept could really escalate. So, if a burglar invades your home, you could enslave him? People who spend foolishly could be enslaved by credit card companies? Gosh, under your system we'll have to build even more prison -- or whatever you build to hold slaves.
Uh, count me out.
reedr: well said -- straight to the core as usual.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Wow *shakes head*
I'm more astonished at how there is a part of me that really likes it -- the short-run impatience of the "revenge" impulse is strong in people.
But, as I think it through -- here's why I disagree.
In a Free-Society you must have the right to FAIL -- Therefore, if you give a man a million dollars and he blows it in Vegas that's you're own fault.
In a Free-Society there is no force-agent to "enslave" another human being. You'd have to kidnap this person and enslave him prison-style (ball and chain -- RFID chip -- exploding neck collar), hahaha.
Saying there is a time when slavery might be "okay" is saying there are times when Corporatism is "okay"
Anyway -- sometimes I feel "impatient" and want quick-action too.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
The convenient thing about a
The convenient thing about a long term strategy is that it absolves the individual of responsibility today...
Ventura 2012
Who are you really?
So what then. We all just magically follow Octobox and his Ideals.
Seriously before we know it you're going to say that people cant stirrup horses because it's a from of slavery against another living animal..
yeah I know that's a big jump, but you're smart enough to link it right.. RIGHT?
Veritass: You are very amusing -- who is "we"
Who are you speaking for? The "collective"
Slavery is "collectivism" -- I'm against force-agent based collectivism and for individualism.
Why don't you "debate" what I'm saying -- rather than flaming and picking fights?
You follow me around and have never once tried debate format and I've never been "rude" to you.
You act as though people "can't" ignore me -- as if I'm corrupting their minds.
Some folks will not even read a thread that I put up; others will not read a post I reply too.
Try that if you find it difficult to drum up a good debate stance or ask me and I'll teach you how to debate. Tell me what argument you'd like to make against something I said and I'll argue against myself for you.
Hahahaha *kidding*
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
I choose not to.
You get no free ride with me.
It's hard to debate ignorance without looking dumb, so I just point out the inconsistency in your logic which you fail to miss.
When you choose to debate the now, you may get a debate out of me.
I don't condone slavery, nor do I allow arrogant babbling.
Do something constructive.
Veritass: You have never approached me in debate format
I've never "attacked" you once -- not that I "feel" attacked, but you lead with your emotions and leave reason at the door.
Your inability to connect dots and lay out fundemental arguments frustrates you into silly name calling and absolutism.
I don't believe I'm absolutely correct -- I'm always "evolving" my own notions and theories; ask anyone who has followed my posts over the last two years, I'm always trying to improve my hypothesis.
So far my experience with you has produced zero fruit -- you are of contrarian pedigree; whereas I was born into a house of debators.
After all -- are we not just fonts and usernames -- is this not all mind-theatre?
For me it is "practice" -- what's it for you?
I have always been civil with you and will remain so.
I train 1st Responders and Military in Defensive Tactics, Conscious-Sleep, and Tension Mastery -- I seriously doubt you are going to "upset" me, hahahaha. Maybe that's your practice - to upset people and you found a corn kernel mistaken for popped corn?
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
How about the "slavery of revenge"
Redemption and Atonement are "voluntary" -- they can't be forced.
Therefore it can only come in Liberty.
Forgiveness and Letting Go -- cannot be forced.
They come from a state of liberty-consciousness (it's "liberating" to forgive).
What's the opposite of not forgiving: Blame and Revenge - Anger and a Depressive Loss Mentality? I think that's right don't you.
No amount of revenge or punishment triggers the "release" of this emotionalism -- the individual allowed it to develop by rumenating (watching 1000's of 911 videos and having 1000's of 911 heated discussions) -- rumenating on the event 'till it turned into the poison of revenge, hate, and malice (toward the accused) -- Until their hearts became like those that triggered the event in the first place.
No no no this is the low-road.
First we seek Liberty -- Then we seek atonement -- In South Africa they allowed White Aparteid Evil Doers to come forward and confess and ask forgiveness and in most cases were then turned free.
Africans have a genetic understanding of "letting go" and "forgiveness" -- Maybe there is a lesson there?
911-Truth is all about Revenge -- it's about Rumenation (meditation) on Loss.
The REAL culprits behind 911 was US -- We the People (consumer-abdicators) and I don't hate myself for it. I made my appologies to those that died and promised to seek liberty in their name and never vengance in their name.
There's ONE HEART -- If it is filled with 911-Anger you must dump it every time you hug your child or greet a loved-one -- then quickly refill it through rumenation. Imagine if in the later time we were developing entrepreneurial solutions toward liberty. Maybe Liberty and Love in the Heart is better for our loved ones than Love and Anger?
Maybe ;-)
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
You're a moron.
9/11 truth is about TRUTH. You know, following actual Newtonian Scientific law to show buildings don't just crumble into nothing without demolition.
If you are serious with what you say, and I have cautious reserve that you are.. I recommend that you take an insurance policy out and help what family you can at this point becuase you've failed at life.
Seriously. You have to be one of the most educated idiots I've run across in a long time. P.S. everything dosen't connect to a market value, not everyone is controlled by greed. Your outlook tells me that you however are. It is sickening that you actually take people as consumer-adjudicators and blame it on them.. What a ruse. It was a select few that pulled 9/11 off and they weren't Muslims from Caves.. Stop trying to hide that fact.
Verit-ass: Thank you for your kind words of praise and love
*rolls eyes*
You are incapable of examining any "truth" outside of the boxes you put others and that you put situations (events) inside of.
This is normal -- It is egotism and ultimately grounded in self-preservation; it's the obvious emotionalism that you do not know how to transmute that dictates truth to you.
I broke down the Evil Doers revenue stream and it is 100% based on Misesian and Paulian axioms -- It is also based on what should be common sense.
That "profit" is benefit and can be transformed into dollars, or assets, or power, or access -- usually a very reciprocal symbiosis. One builds the other.
If you can ignore that given our Fiat Credit Crisis and not connect them then you are un-willing to be free.
Rather you want to believe in absolute evil versus absolute good and see yourself and the rest of the NON-Evil doer class as being 100% INNOCENT.
This is why you will need a Corporatist Court System and a Corporatist Banking System to "catch and try" these "evil doers" -- Afterwards you will need a Corporatist Prison System to house then execute them.
Then you will need a Corporatist Account System to pay of the $6T in reparation claims.
Your emotionalism will Grow Gov't and Protect Inefficiency
===There's your "absolute"
Since 911-Truth is not seeking non-Corporatist solutions their push can only result in Corporatism -- Collectivism.
If you stand against a Truther with logic you will be labled a Troll -- sounds almost like McCarthyism.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Logic?
Logic? If you think that 9/11 was caused by anything else than Demolition and say it's because of our credit system and currency then yes. Thier is a big dissconnect in your brain pan. It's like saying god is the reason people kill each other, and that we should use logic to undermine gods universe to stop people from killing each other.
I'm sure if we used the Constitution and Brought the Real Culprits to Justice the Reprations would be worth every cent. We could also regain the Freedoms lost because of fake TERRORISM.
So yes You're an educated idiot. Seeking a non corportaist solution..LOL.
See how far that gets you. I'll just show scientific proof that it's an inside job.
Veritass: No, you are missing the point (cool your flow)
This is a hot button topic -- for very righteous and yet emotional reasons.
It's a righteous anger my friend.
I know what I am saying is true I'm just not saying it in a way you want to hear right now -- right now you want "action" and "revenge"
Revenge is an absolutists resolve -- A Rights-Seeker and Rights-Taker.
911-Truth wants to Imprison or Execute 911-Culprits -- To do this they will need to use Corporatism.
911-Truthers say they are RP Libertarians -- Yet, there is no Liberty in Corporatist Means.
Revenge is the result of a "force-agent" using objective and subjective reasoning to bring about the destruction of another's liberty and to effect a disproportional payback based on a real or perceived afront.
911 was "Revenge" (regardless of who caused it). It was a "force-agent" (gov't) using objective and subjective reasoning.............
The "perceived" afront for 911-Culprits was the Right-Taking (welfarist mentality of entitlement)
Revenge is akin to voting; voting is the abdication of self-rule or the theft of another's perception of liberty (happiness, rights, advantages).
Atonement is "Justice" and it is 100% Voluntary
911-Justice would require that we first establish a Voluntary Society and we offer Atonement Hearings like the ones in South Africa after Aparteid -- Forgiveness for the Truth.
Your God analogy was a nice try.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
So I guess you are a legend in your own mind.
News Flash.. From what you're saying we should just forgive a couple people who pulled off 9/11. The same ones who introduced the Patriot Act, and put us into endless wars over a tactic called terrorism not to mention the FACT that 3000 American Citizens were slaughtered to accomplish this.
Please again excuse me, but who the hell are you talking to.. yourself?
Not Octobox.. I'm not missing the Point.. You've missed the point entirely.
IF 9/11 IS ALLOWED TO STAND AS IS IN THE HISTORY BOOKS. THEN HUMAN KIND WILL HAVE TO REWRITE NEWTONIAN PHYSICS.
I could care less about who, or what gets tried in court.. I'm talking about moving forward as a species. You're trying to link freedom with overlooking and instating a economic life style that may possibly take the power away from the evil doers. YES IT"S APPARENT ITS OVER MONEY. But your idea to work backwards economically is like trying to enforce gun laws to stop criminals.. IT DOSENT WORK
Continue to argue your ridiculous point with yourself.. I just wanted you to know how utterly retarded it is smart guy.
Veritass: Calling me "egotistical" is a compliment
I'm an individualist.
Let me do it for you.
I love myself -- I love the way I look -- I love the sound of my own voice and the funny things I say (I crack myself up).
I was an only child and seriously listed myself as one of my best friends.
I look forward to seeing myself in the morning (not the mirror, but within my own thoughts).
I point out things to me as if saying it to another person, "hey look at that beautiful car, you'd look good in that," or "Oh those shoes would look great with your chocolate suit -- brown is your color"
Hahahahaha -- This was fun -- I love discussing me, don't you (well that was silly, I know you love discussing me). In fact you have a hard time keeping me off your keyboard.
Well I'm married (very happily), sorry.
What's your name -- I'm going to call you Marie from now on, you seem like a Marie to me. Like Marie Osmond.
Your "gun laws" comment was hillarious. When you insult me (an avid-rabid individualist) with your notions of liberty you actually assign meaning to what I write using corporatist parables. Are you aware of that?
Do you understand the difference between a free society (based on voluntarism and self-rule) vs corporatism (where force-agents create "gun laws")?
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Gun Laws don't work.
at stopping criminals. Jesus you're dense. That wasn't an attack on you.
It was an explanation.. a comparison of what you think.
Only child.. Yep you just explained it.
Get a life.
Veritass: You are now arguing with yourself -- hahahahaha
I'm against all Laws -- Including gun laws.
Your point is moot -- You are not debating, you are not arguing *wait*
*blinks eyes*
You are a fan -- a fan of mine!!!
Focker-Out
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
For those of you
who haven't seen his original publication of this article from back in August, I personally like the older format better as he puts a table of comparative arguments FOR slavery and FOR government together.
Pass it around (especially to your pro-government friends, family, and co-workers :)
http://www.lewrockwell.com/higgs/higgs128.html
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Progress is precisely that which the rules and regulations did not foresee. - Ludwig Von Mises.
Slavery flies in the face of...
individual sovereignty. But, contractural deliberate servitude does not. I would support the latter, and it too has been around as long as slavery. Slavery sets little recourse for escape from the system ahere as servitude has a defined, understood and lawful period of enforcement along with bylaws and quantitative measures for services rendered, actions not allowed and performance expectations. That is what the free market is about isn't it?
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
contractural deliberate servitude
contractural deliberate servitude is what happen when you sign-on to the military.
Sure, but you sign...
of your own free will. If you didn't sign, and were drafted, well then, that's a totally different story.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
You cannot sign away your free-will -- not in free-society
.......in a Corporatist Society you can.
Corporatism is a Contractual Right Seeking Society
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
Actually, ALL contracts
Actually, ALL contracts entail a voluntary circumscription of one's free will- an employment contract says I have pay money for the work someone did for me, a marriage contract says I'm no longer free to have sex with anyone other than my spouse, etc, etc. In a free society, people have the right to voluntary enter into such contracts and have them enforced.
It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the puni
jblackpost: No they do not
Rothbard and Mises both agree that some of the initial tenents of a free-society is: #1 The right to fail, #2 Zero Protectionism, and #3 Zero Force-Agents.
The only contracts that can be "en-forced" (In a Free-Society) are ones where both sides assets have been turned over -- to be held by the mediating official.
When it comes to "labor" -- You cannot "force" the labor; because in a free-society everyone is a sub-contractor (there are no "employees" -- because there are no "rights" as workers -- no forced obligations). As sub-contractors (or contractors) you do not get paid 'till the work is done.
A mediating firm can force the owner -- because they hold the asset; but you can't "force" the labor. Labor first then work is performed -- that's the way it is in most societies, but especially so in a free-society.
There is no "authority" in a free-society -- none.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss
I didn't say that you signed away...
your free will, but rather that you signed OF your free will, knowingly, with understanding of the parameters of the contract. Are you against contracts? Are yo against individuals contracting with one another? Is a contract a symbol of anything other than willing engagement? In a free society there will exist contracts, but you will not have to participate in any of them if you so please.
Assert Your Authority
Assert Your Authority
elrococco: Contracts will not make sense in a free-society
It's an act of "good faith" -- not bindable in a society where there are no force-agents.
What you understand as a binding "contract" -- one that is forced by a "court of law" would have no "teeth" in Rothbards Anarcho-Capitalism.
There is no VALUE in property (in terms of profit-drivers) in a Free-Society.
Rothbardians and Misesians both agree that in a Free-Society there would be 100% Competition in Currency -- which with zero barriers to entry currency becomes very stable; un-like property and currency in a corporatist society.
Contracts 100% have to do with a transference of property (my labor is my property and your assets are yours -- to use Rothbardian) and in a Corporatist Society, even a Capitalist Society, I can be forced to comply; because, your agents (the courts) will seize my assets or threaten me with imprisonment or a fine if I don't.
Now a "word of trust" or "good faith" and a voluntary transfer -- all would be available.
Octobox
Mises on Profit/Loss