CRASH!

   

The Price of Liberty and 911 Truth, the Founders' Sacrifices

For the benefit of those posters who are sincere and not our assigned disinformation artists, transparently trying to bludgeon free people into the lesson "don't touch 911 truth or you will lose," let's not lose sight of the price which has been paid for our liberty and how short we fall of the Founders' sacrifices. We are talking about a single electoral loss in which our candidate walked into an ambush she was not ready for. Big deal.

For the paid disinformationists, your best bet is to turn yourself into your nearest police station and tell everything you know about your operation. All will be public one day, and you will be complicit, in mass murder, under the laws of this nation and international law.

Of 56 original signers of the Declaration of Independence:

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons in the revolutionary army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the revolutionary war.

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKean of Delaware was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals, soldiers, or both, looted the properties of Ellery of Rhode Island, Clymer of Pennsylvania, Hall of Georgia, Walton of Georgia, Gwinnett of Georgia, Heyward of South Carolina, Ruttledge of South Carolina, and Middleton of South Carolina.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., of Virginia, noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. The owner quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis of New York had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart of New Jersey was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his grist mill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Lewis Morris of New York and Philip Livingston of New York suffered similar fates.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were among prominent Americans well known in England. Yet both signed enthusiastically knowing they would be hanged if caught and even if they escaped, Jefferson was risking Monticello and Franklin his wealth and world prestige if independence was not secured.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged:

"For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

So let's get off it. For every disinformation post and "911 Truth bad, repeat" post, either:

- Start or contribute some small amount to an ae911 money bomb http://www.ae911truth.org/

or

- Resolve to send todays post on Dr. Paul Craig Roberts to 2 more people who may not agree with you:

Reagan Official Dr. Paul Craig Roberts: "911 is Exploding in Their Dirty Faces"

The American Revolution was not over after the Shot Heard Around the World. It was thereafter a 10-year slog culminating in Valley Forge, where men lost feet to frostbite and underwent amputation without anesthesia. A single electoral loss? We will continue to run our candidates, some better versed in 911 than others, all well-versed in the Constitution. We'll speak the truth over and over and we will win the debate, and liberty.

(credit for above history to http://mhartzler.blogspot.com/2009/06/fate-of-signers-of-dec... )

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Jocean

Who are you tring to save?

It's a good thread,

and it's making the "Becker-heads" apoplectic.

That makes me like it even more.

5 stars.

Great topic.

Thank you.

Stop trying to Co-opt the Ron Paul movement.

Ron Paul's position is that 9/11 was blowback. Stop trying to overshadow of his defining issues on a Ron Paul site, to try to convert us.

Support Rand Paul by donating at http://www.randpaul2010.com/ and certified non-Truthers Peter Schiff at http://schiffforsenate.com/ and John Dennis at http://www.johndennis2010.com/

who's this "us" stuff.

You don't speak for me. And I'm most certain you don't speak for Ron Paul. How about you try to speak for yourself.. K.. thanks.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson

LMAO!!!

You've been here 7 hours.

He has been here a lot longer than that.

The problem is that his old handle "Oruval" has been banned.

LOL

You've been banned what... 3 times so far?

Time since someone joined a forum is no indication of the veracity of thier posts. Or thier intelligence.

I give you... YOU... as an example of how that argument doesn't work.

Your argument is not with me ...

I was merely making a correction to an error.

Point made.

I apologize for that.. I've had a long day with some really slow people that are considered experts in thier respective fields.

I'll go take a walk before I continue.

:)

Truth

You would do well to deal with nothing but the truth to further your cause.

Naton

You are going to compare 9-11

You are going to compare 9-11 was an inside job by Bush and Cheney to the Declaration Of Independence and the revolution for independence and freedom? Are you kidding me!

Actually the person was explaining

how standing on your own convictions of truth was what the founders felt was self evident in what they did.

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
-- Thomas Jefferson

OH! The Founding Fathers stood on principals, not behind a man?

They did not pick their favorite founding father and follow him blindly? They did not get in each other's faces and demand each other dig deeper and deeper into their very soul, to bring to the table the very best they had within them?
Well, imagine that.
Thanks for this.

I believe Mark Twain said it best:

"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."

5 stars

Quote -
"We will continue to run our candidates, some better versed in 911 than others, all well-versed in the Constitution. We'll speak the truth over and over and we will win the debate, and liberty."

you Sir I Salute you*)))))

***********
my website -
http://www.libertypoet.com/

God bless, protect and guide us all.

Stand up patriots, stand tall with pride and spit the truth in their lying faces. Time is passing, the lies are crumbling, the TRUTH WILL OUT and liberty will triumph.

Spread the message. Question everything without shame or fear. Move forward in liberty for America and for the world.

_____________________________

Ron Paul, president by default :D

Nittgritt, if you're looking...

I saw your post here that was removed before I finished my reply.

Since it has been removed, I'm not going to post my original reply. Instead I'll just refer you to a post where I listed some things on another thread for someone who has similar thoughts as you so you can at least try to understand why some, including myself, may lean the direction they do. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/126218#comment-1354125

It's just "Nittwitt"

part of the latest troll attack, this time from the Becker-heads.

this is a website which denies access to non-truthers

I am not a truther and so my posts have been deleted and I have been denied access to certain posts. This is a web site for angry folks who deny voice to people who dont believe the truthers. :)

No, your posts were deleted because you violated guidelines...

...with name calling and insults. Remember, ahem, I saw your post before it was deleted.

It was not unlike most of your others. This business of trying to act like the deletion had something to do with where you stand on 9/11 is not going to fly with me.

Btw, when you get "access denied", it means the post or thread was deleted, or if you were trying to access a username, it means that user has been blocked, as with your old name.

Can't you use this newer name as a fresh start, learn from your mistakes and move forward?

Nittgritt, I know you are capable of writing without nastiness because we had conversation a while back where, even though we were not in agreement in the discussion, you managed civility and the conversation was good because of that. :)

Moving on...

Regarding what you said about Osama bin Laden, even the FBI has said they do not have hard evidence connecting him to 9/11.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13664.htm

The hijacking theory itself is rather damned by the revelation that the pentagon flight cockpit door was not opened during the flight.
http://0daynews.org/2009/11/breaking-aa-flight-77-flight-dec...

There are plenty of evidences that point to the likelihood of demolition and/or inside job, though, and I listed several things in my post that I linked above. Did you read it? If not, please do. I'd like you to think about those things. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/126218#comment-1354125

You are lying

I used to do that. My recent posts did not contain any of that. So stop lying and falsely accusing me of something. Dont assume something without knowing the details.

Obviously I read your post, nittgritt...

...or I wouldn't know what you said about Osama bin Laden, right?

Oh, and don't think that just because you're on the other side of the globe that I can't give you a good cyber spanking for saying I'm lying.

*spank, spank, spank*

You are a liar

Hey sanctimonious dog, it is true that I have posted some harsh before.

The post that was deleted merely said, stop this truther nonsense. Why your two husbands cant spank you enough you lying creepy filthy jackass? How many customers do you entertain everyday?

MODERATOR ! Please!

Thats quite enough out of you nittgritt. You need to go!

"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd

Who are you to decide?

Dont pretend that this is a "libertarian" web site. This will allow any atrocious theory about 9/11. No limits. Anyone who believes otherwise has a different set of rules.

You need to go and leave Ron Paul alone. He doesnt believe it was an inside job. So, please leave the campaign, you need to go. Get out please. We dont need insane people.

lying creepy filthy jackass?

My request for a moderator was not due to the 9/11 subject but to your vulgar personal attack.

You replied above:
"Why your two husbands cant spank you enough you lying creepy filthy jackass? How many customers do you entertain everyday?"

"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd

Ah, this is the new and improved nittgritt.

My mistake.

Yeah, bcos I used the word "spank", right?

You lying piece of garbage.

Look nittgritt,

I didn't say anything about the insults in your original post until you suggested it was deleted because you are not a truther.

Gee whiz. Quit being so hateful. Simmer down and go read the information I linked to above.

It was deleted bcos I was not a truther

My message was "Stop posting this truther nonsense". Thats it. You dont know what you are talking about.
You are still assuming that I am talking about the previous messages I posted with some insults.

I am talking about this message I posted last week. Even the other message I posted "this is a fascist web site" and it was changed to "this is a web site".

I dont need any information. I am not going to believe in this fairy tale that the government intentionally killed 3000 people to provoke an invasion. No amount of your foolish and flippant theories are going to change what everyone saw on TV. You will always be mentally challenged people.

Ignorance is bliss?

willful Ignorance.

______
The Abuse of Greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power. - Shakespeare

No, I'm talking about the one that was here.

What you are saying you posted was just the subject line. I saw the rest of the post. In my reply I addressed some things you had said, and when I tried to post my reply, it didn't go through because your post had been removed.

Since it had been removed, I opted to not repost everything in my original reply. On the chance that you weren't just out to be hateful, but actually really believed some of the things you said, since I had recently had a conversation with someone who has similar thoughts as you, I gave you the link to information I posted for them so that maybe you could try to understand some reasons why people may have doubts, and so that hopefully you would have less hostility in the future.

As for what you say here about "what everyone saw on TV", realize that there are sane, educated people in relevant fields (architects, engineers, pilots, etc.) who have good reason to think that what everyone saw is not adequately explained by what we are being led to believe by the gov't/media.

There are things that I don't recall even being shown on TV, as with the pools and streams of molten steel and incinerated vehicles as many as seven blocks away, that are not explained by jet fuel and office fires. There were also things said on TV that people have forgotten about, as with the explosions.

Please don't be so naive as to think that some people in power wouldn't orchestrate or allow something diabolical to achieve a certain end, be it to provoke invasion or whatever. There are examples of such things in modern history.

Still, there is enough evidence to validate the questioning of what we've been led to believe about 9/11, and people are not "mentally challenged" for doing so.

--------------------------

Nittgritt, just thought I'd let you know that something happened earlier on another thread that presents the possibility that your post may not have been removed by a mod.

Someone had posted a comment that they said had been gotten by the spam filter. But I had seen the comment. If it was the spam filter that removed it, that means that in addition to intercepting comments before they would appear, the filter can also remove posts after they have posted as well.

Here is a link to where that happened: http://www.dailypaul.com/node/128415#comment-1375954

I thought I'd let you know about what appears to have been a ~retro~ interception by the spam filter, not only because you think you are being targeted for being a non-truther, but also because it may not have been a mod at all that removed your post.

Given the nature of your post, the latter was a fair assumption, but still, if that's not what happened, I apologize for saying that.

Very well put...

... thank you.

=====================================

"The greatest mystery of all is truth." - Me, 2009

Nobel Savages

I forgot how peaceful the different tribes of indians were. How they all joined together and wrote a document of freedom based on Biblical principles. Yes indeed it was utopia.

Huzzah

Huzzah!

I admire the founding fathers...

for their intentions. Intentions are all we have, as no one but God really knows the future.

I also admire the Buddhist concept of mercy. As I understand it, Buddhist mercy means saving a miscreant from the most bitter consequences of his behavior.

Yes, Absolutley I agree on having the courage to risk, BUT

There is a "Mix of true and false information" in your essay outlining the fates of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.

Check it out.....
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

"GINO" = Government In Name Only

Insignificant and irrelevant

The source you quote "takes on" the Cliff Notes version of the Founders lives and purports to correct it, though no scholarly citations are made beyond listing the titles of a few books at the bottom as "sources," so nothing is settled.

Your website says:

Through multiple versions of pieces like the one quoted above, their lives have been repeatedly embellished with layers of fanciful fiction to make for a better story.

Sorry, that doesn't kill anything for me. Even if the corrections are true, most of them dispute facts such as whether the treatment they received was a result of being signers of the Declaration, or just being another American in the middle of the war. Typical is:

British: George Walton was captured after being wounded while commanding militia at the Battle of Savannah in December 1778, and Thomas Heyward, Jr., Arthur Middleton, and Edward Rutledge (three of the four Declaration of Independence signers from South Carolina) were taken prisoner at the Siege of Charleston in May in 1780. Although they endured the ill treatment typically afforded to prisoners of war during their captivity (prison conditions were quite deplorable at the time), they were not tortured, nor is there evidence that they were treated more harshly than other wartime prisoners who were not also signatories to the Declaration.

I'd say the writer here sounds a little like Dick Cheney, "that's not torture." Again he makes no citation. "Deplorable" conditions are not disputed, so if you are wounded and that wound is festering and rats are trying to take little nibbles at it each time you fall asleep, is it torture? A little more sympathy for those who endowed you, theoretically , inalienable rights, please. Perhaps that's all they could do and left it to a better time and generation (like us!) to carry it out. I doubt the difference between theory and reality was lost on the Founders. Just imagine, the first time in history it was put into writing, in the bedrock of the law of the land that all citizens have a right to a jury trial of peers! It gives me chills down my spine! Of course we know the difference between being there and getting there.

The "writer" takes such a pompously authoritative tone which should cast suspicions on his motives. For example.

# Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

First of all, this passage has a couple of misspellings: the signers referred to are William Ellery (not "Dillery") and Edward Rutledge (not "Ruttledge"). Secondly, this sentence is misleading in that it implies a motive that was most likely not present (i.e., these men's homes were looted because they had been signers of the Declaration of Independence). The need to forage for supplies in enemy territory has long been a part of warfare, and so it was far from uncommon for British soldiers in the field to appropriate such material from private residences during the American Revolution.

First of all, this guy is an idiot. So the Brits were pillaging and looting everyone, not just the signers. That makes me feel a lot better.

So who is trying to separate Americans, by trivial tactics, from their glorious history? That's the first thing you do when you are attempting to undercut the fiber of a nation. That's the question your post makes me ask.

A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali

Hey Newbie, relax.

Nobody is attacking your post. I was just supporting you with some details so people don't tell you its not accurate.

Ease up on watching Glenn Beck. You're getting touchy.

"GINO" = Government In Name Only

this "newbie" has more...

substance in this one post than all of your "cramer/look at me and how i make money for the last two years" posts put together!

i find it condescending that you talk down to him but, once i consider the source, its not that surprising

you should take a lesson from this newbie and get off you high horse but, then again, you don't like being told what to do, do you?

how many people have you helped today with your "wealth"? and how many have you destroyed?

O Captain! My Captain! Rise up and hear the bells!

Who's watching Glenn Beck? Where did that come from?

You are pulling stuff out your a-- now. Your style of argument fits more with the Dailykos kiddies. You sure sound like one.

A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali

"You Lie"

I know you're a 912er.

We have surveillance on all the newcomers.

"Papers please".

And I can tell you've read "Arguing With Idiots".

"GINO" = Government In Name Only

Ho hum.

Gives me a chance to bump the post in case any of the real Patriots missed it. Thanks! Oh, and someone should tell you the name "Daddy Warbucks" is not funny on a Ron Paul website. Your tin ear gives you away.

A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali

Newbie, you got.....

A case of self-righteous, Glenn Beckitis...

There's two kinds of WarBucks.

"GINO" = Government In Name Only

I believe the original point was whether or not

Patriot Debra Medina's loss is a lesson in not "touching 911 truth." The Patriots seem to understand nothing is further from the trutn. Your attempt at playing the ridicule card with people on this site much smarter than you is amusing and transparent. The truth is a juggernaut, and the mass murder of 3,000 people will not go unanswered, and never has.

Get on the right side now, my friend. It's not too late.

A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life.
-- Muhammad Ali

The "writer"

The "writer" (James_Madison_Lives) takes such a pompously authoritative tone which should cast suspicions on his motives.

"GINO" = Government In Name Only

I like the point of the post

about putting yourself out there, for something you believe in.

All Founders (save Adams or to a lessor extent) were Slave

profiteers -- Were all (including Adam's) profiteers of Indian Land grabbing.

No "real" effort was ever made to "include" or try to "live with" American Indian's as equals.

The benefits after 1776 were from continued Slavery and Indian Land grabbing - Heightened Treaty Breaking - and that lovely little "gem" known as Reservationism.

Followed by Black-Codes, Jim Crow, and massive Social-Welfarism.

I appreciate and love the Philosophy (the good intentions) and the Theoretical Musings of the Founding Father's; but I live in the "reality" of what happened not the what-could of or should-of happened.

This is why within the Ron Paul Community, within the Libertarian Community, with the Republican Community, within the Democractic Community, and within the Social-Progressive / Neoconservative Communities you will ever get "all of us" to agree on GOING BACK to that WASP Benefiting Document (the Constitution).

It will never-EVER happen.

I do agree with Ron Paul -- "if you swear an oath to the consitution you should live up to it;" but that is in ignorance to the fact not one Founder lived-up to the intentions or theories of liberty let alone any politician (save a precious few) going forward as outlined by the U.S Constitution.

I give massive props to Adams, Coolidge, Taft, and Ron Paul -- and that's about it!!

Where's Thomas Paine?

have you forgotten Thomas Paine? Although not a signer, he was indeed so much at the heart of the Revolution. Never forget Paine...

Assert Your Authority