Separation of church and state?

http://www.usconstitution...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...

Quick note to those interested in such things...The term "seperation of church and state" is derived from the communist manifesto (1922-1991): "Article 124: In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the State, and the school from the church."

Listen, if you have nothing but private schools, prayer would not be an issue. No church/state problem.

Thank you all for your help, I guess this is a bigger subject than I thought. Last night at our meetup we were planning this event were doing called the Southern Missouri Ron Paul-a-thon (I'll post info about it). The question was asked by a member if we should start out with a prayer.
I said that I wasn't necessarily against it, but didn't think we should start the event with prayer. BOOM! Major touchy topic, hence the inquiry about c&s.
I quickly said we should put it to a vote, and still received nasty emails from the member who wants to have prayer.
What do you think should a Ron Paul event with potentially hundreds of people start with prayer?
I would like to start with the constitution, that is my vote.

Thank you all for your help, I guess this is a bigger subject than I thought. Last night at our meetup we were planning this event were doing called the Southern Missouri Ron Paul-a-thon (I'll post info about it). The question was asked by a member if we should start out with a prayer.
I said that I wasn't neccesarily against it, but didn't think we should start the event with prayer. BOOM! Major touchy topic, hence the inquiry about c&s.
I quickly said we should put it to a vote, and still recieved nasty emails from the member who wants to have prayer.
What do you think should a Ron Paul event with potentially hundreds of people start with prayer?
I would like to start with the constitution, that is my vote.

The funny thing about “the separation between church and state” theory is that Thomas Jefferson was not one of the founding fathers who signed the constitution. Yet because of the letter he wrote stating similar words people have used it against this country.
Our founding fathers were Christians and they considered Christianity and the Bible the foundation to building this great nation.

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!

John Adams:
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

John Quincy Adams- Letters to his son: “The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence:" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Benjamin Franklin: “God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

Samuel Johnston: “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.

Price_trend has it correct. The Constitution limits government, not the individual. We can pray anywhere and anytime we desire. Government has no power to stop us. We can pray in the public schools, at football games, and anywhere else. At the same time, government cannot compel us to pray. This is what is meant by Freedom of Religion.

The Supreme Court is wrong in it's explanation of the First Amendment. Supreme Court justices who contine to make rulings that contradict the Constitution need to be impeached and removed. The idea the the justices serve lifetime apointments is FALSE. They serve during terms of good behavior. When their rulings violate the Constitution, that constitutes bad behavior.

We need to educate the American people about the Constitution and the proper role of government. Unfortunately, most are the victims of public education. The public (government) schools have indoctrinated them with the idea that they are unable to function without the benevelent hand of government controlling their lives. They need to hear the message of freedom.

I know a person who has a Masters Degree in economics. He knows nothing about economics. He doesn't understand that stable currencies need to have intrinsic value. He doesn't think that it is necessary to have "hard" money. Another victim of public education.

How many of us learned that we live in a "democracy"? I remember a student in one of my classes asking why we pledged allegiance to the "republic". The teacher told him that the two words meant the same thing. Public education strikes again.

We were never given a proper education about the Electoral College, and the fact that the President presides over the states, not the people. He is elected by the states, not the people at large.

Millions of Americans need to know what "....shall not be infringed", means. They need to know that it is their freedom that is being trampled, not the "gun lobby".

Americans need to know about the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and how the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, the Thought Crimes Act, the Criminalization of Dissent Act and the Real ID Act violate them. Then need to know that it is the American people who's privacy needs to be protected from the intrusions of government. It is government operations that need to be open. Secret deals with foreign governments and corporate executives are prima facie evidence of corruption. Our public servants cannot be allowed to have secrets from us, their masters.

Americans need to understand that we are not allowed to go to war without a Declaration of War from the Congress. Congress cannot "authorize" the president to wage war. And we are only supposed to go to war in defense of this nation, not to defend "our" national interest. I wonder exactly who "our" refers to.

Sorry, but go back re-read the document.

This supposed "seperation" refers to a letter that Jefferson wrote to a clergy who (the clergy) was apprehensive of the Federal government growing large and eventually affecting laws that abridge the free expression of speech and practice of one's religion.

Jefferson aptly wrote that there was a seperation that abridges the government from exercising authority over establishing a state run/funded church and forbids the government to establish rules about how and when a person can exercise their freedom to practice their religion.

Unfortunately, liberals and the like have successfully managed to use this brief statement made in a letter to literally create the very problem that Jefferson was attempting to squash.

So here we are on the eve of 2008 and folks have it ingrained in their heads that government has ANY authority dictating how and when a person can practice their religion. Utter nonsense!

The very spirit, if not the letter, of the law (Constitution and other documents) is to place federal government in a box and limit their authority over man and the freedom of liberty to express themselves, whether in speech, religion, or the press.

Wake up people!

When the state tells you you cannot bring a Bible, Tora, or Koran to school, government buildings, public property, or that a pastor, rabbi, or imom can't talk about politics or whatever they want, get your guns and prepare for another revolution.

The Founders were students of history and were well aware that religious warfare had nearly destroyed their Mother country of England. They were smart enough to know that the only way to avoid eternal strife over religion was to prevent any one religion from using government power or funds. Thus, although the Founders were mostly deists of one stripe or another, the Constitution grants to the Federal government NO powers to use tax money or any other government resource to promote any religion in any way. But enough people were STILL worried about it to force Madison to add the prohibition in the First Amendment.

Lest you think that the "godless liberals" of the 1960's have twisted this history to their own ends and that prior to that nobody was concerned about the use of government resources for religious purposes, take a gander at this:

"No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise, or instruction, or to the support of any religious establishment. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned touching his religious belief in any court of justice to affect the weight of his testimony."

That is from the Arizona Constitution, adopted in 1910.

You will find something similar in most State Constitutions. State Constitutions, by the way, make for very interesting reading and will become more important in a Post-Paul world where the Federal government is cut down to size.

Dr. Paul's message of freedom brings us together BECAUSE it rejects the notion that anyone has the right to force their values (through government action) on anyone else. The more we understand and respect this, the more chance we have of success.

Peace.

Thomas Jefferson would have favored both a freedom of and a freedom from religion. As to the specifics of prayer in schools. I am a teacher, and I know that there is prayer in schools. Private. Silent. This is as it should be. The LAST thing we need is to create another generation of praying in public Pharisees who babble aloud and then break their arms patting themselves on the back.
This is NOT a Christian country and it never was one. Thank GOD! As to schools themselves; government schools are little more than indoctrination centers and should all be simply bulldozed. It is your child; send him where you want him to be educated. NO public schools.

Separation of Church and State is a NEW legal concept that did not exists as a phrase until 1962.

The constituion has the "establishment" clause. What that says is the government has no right to make ANY LAW WHATSOEVER ABOUT RELIGION. Either barring it from public or establishing it. Also, it is clear from history that the founders did have Religion as part of the public life. Prayer before congress, the 10 commandments on public buildings, and many many more.

not only with countries but also religions.. Part of the debates during the consitution convention and ratification process contained alot of religious debate, Deists, Christians, etc.. All thought it better to leave the language genaric.. In fact our First Treaty Signed by John Adams and ratified unianiously by congress was the Treaty of tripoli that clearly stated

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.stephenjaygoul...

There is a separation here plain and simple..
http://candst.tripod.com/...

Well of course there would be no state schools only private ones, so do what you want.

There is a freedom of religion, not a freedom from religion.

When a candidate like Romney says "my faith will never influence my politics". That scares me.

I hope Ron Paul's faith (I believe he's a christian), will guide him to follow his oath of office.

If you define faith as your beliefs in action, that is what the bible says it is. A man who takes an oath to uphold the constitution, who is a man of faith, is the best thing we can have. What we have under Bush, and will have under Huckleberry or Romney if we fail, are a bunch of "faithless" Evangelicals. Their secular, but agendized attitudes are more dangerous than the most devout christian who understands the constitution.

Ron Paul, is against abortion, but understands it is a state issue. As much as I'm sure he would love to stop it all in one day, you can't legally. Perhaps the case can be made for "life and liberty" of the baby, i'd like to explore that federal role.

But we have a constitutional republic, in which one must be governed by faith. Some people who are atheists, have a religion of humanism, or something like it. We all subscribe to some moral believe system. Romney obvious believes christianity and even all the good things belong in a box.

Ron Paul brings such good characteristics, usually ignored about religion to the office of the president. A president who believes that "you reap what you sew", or "do unto your neighbor", and "thou shalt not lie". These are important "religious principles" that are ignored.

The government shall not respect an establishment of religion, means no religious practice. Government can respect something that is incidentally "religious", like life, or truth, or things like that. But Government is constituted , and an honest (incidentally religious) adherence to the constitution, yields a libertarian government.

None should separate their faith from their politics. That is what got us into the toilet we are in now. We should just gaurd our politics from interfering with the religious practices of others.

Jefferson would be ashamed to see how his little quote about the "wall of separation" has been misconstrued to keep morality and honesty out of the government.

Besides that, if the government starts banning my religion, tough luck, i'll keep doing it. I prayed in school (defacto youth prison) all i wanted, and can do it anywhere i want.