Michael Nystrom. Re: "flag, delete" censorship problems
Posted February 13th, 2008 by John_Haigh
output
Thanks for you excellent work setting up this forum.
I think we have a problem that is getting out of hand. Good productive threads are being deleted by a relatively small number of people who do it again and again and again.
Dedicated supporters are getting annoyed when threads they really care about, and have invested time in supporting, are being deleted.
In my opinion there are two reasons.
1. Some people can't stand seeing ideas that they disagree with and don't share Ron Paul's views on freedom of speech.
2. Others believe this forum should be an advertisement for any stranger who comes here wanting to find out about RP. I happen to disagree, but can easily respect that point of view.
I think there is a major difference between this site and Ron Paul's official sites. Here, we should be allowed to discuss anything; including fundamental differences of opinion, philosophy or strategy. People new to the RP message are directed to the official campaign sites. Most of the people who come here are already solidly behind Ron Paul. So we should be very slow to censor a free exchange of ideas. Very, very slow.
We don't need to "tidy up quick, visitors are coming." We can enjoy the rough and tumble of a family relaxing at home.
Threads that contain many well-presented posts, that have taken supporters a long time to write, are being destroyed by a capricious few.
I have even seen calls for flagging sensible useful posts by people who have difficulty spelling. We don't ban people in wheel chairs. Should we ban dyslexics?
One suggestion is to give each person a very limited number of "flag as offensive" votes.
Another is to raise the threshold before deletion to about 15, perhaps increasing as the number of comments increases.
Another is to establish an appeal process with a small number of trusted moderators who do have the time to view and answer emails.
Without having thought about it too much, the last suggestion seems the best. But unfortunately it would require work on your part.
Edit: Better suggestion from TJ1776 http://www.dailypaul.com/...
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Everyone is offended
Everyone is "offended" by something. Censorship is Censorship. To the point, why can't people just IGNORE something that sounds off color to them? Somethings posted here are to stir things up a bit, work on folks emotions, say something "shocking". This only works for the "TROLLS/PROVOCATOURS" when you respond and keep it alive . The thread would otherwise DIE and that is that. Most people who frequent forums,can spot a "leading/misleading thread". IMHO, Just keep on truckin', there are plenty of productive threads...................
I agree with you my friend.
I think the flagging option should be taken away all together and replaced with a star system similar to you tube. If you don't like it give it one star and if you do give it five. This would allow us to freely post what we want and for people to show there like or dislike without censoring other peoples thoughts like many like to do. I have never flagged anything or anyone here and never will.
Observations from a relatively new member.
I'm a newer member, and I've never flagged any post for anything.
However, in my fairly short time here so far, I have most definitely seen some incidents of what I'd call "malicious intent" postings, and also attempts at "hijacking" the RP base for their own other causes.
Neocon infiltrators ARE POSTING HERE, and I doubt that is news to anyone. But they can be clever, and distract attention and cloud the focus, and send some of us down rabbit trails.
I've read numerous attempts trying to change the focus of RP's supporters' efforts into the Libertarian Party, the Green Party, the Democrat Party, etc. This troubles me. I can understand it, since some of these movements are stagnant and need the energy of the RP campaigners. But they are not the RP movement, and they need to get their own supporters, or decide to fully back what RP represents.
In closing, I think that free speech is great and we should give wide allowance for it. But I do think that clear swerving or hijacking attempts, as well as neocon infiltrators intent on doing harm, can be identified and dealt with as the site owners would see fit.
We have a large vibrant group, with high levels of contribution potential(both participatory and monetary), and this has apparently been identified as something that others want to tap into, or destroy, as the case may be. We must be on guard for that. And I think that most of the posters here are very perceptive, and see these swerving posts for what they are. So, in this way, we are "self-protecting" by our knowledge, for the most part. Clever ruses and outright damaging posts should be dealt with by site staff.
A Clear Statement of Purpose is what is needed.
I used to come here because the forum seemed to have the most up to date articles on Ron Paul.
ie:Daily Paul.
That is what I thought the reason for this forum was.
Lately, it seems behind the 8 ball.
I think if it was cleaned up and a new clear statement of purpose was made it may solve the problem.
If everyone who joined, did so under terms and conditions, understanding
the purpose of the forum, it would solve 97% of the problem.
The remaining 3% would stick out like sore thumbs and would
be easily removed, or ignored.
Become a Precinct Leader
Donate to the Campaign
Statement is right under the banner
dedicated to restoring the constitution of the united states
Simple and a wide variety of topics to discuss. Everything from blatant censorship of our first amendment (yes, media blackout of ALL important news, especially ron paul is censorship) to ways to get Ron Paul elected.
This site, I'm sure, has far surpassed anyone's foresight for activity and we need to keep the communication lines open.
Mike is doing a great job, lets give him a round of applause!
Way to tell it like it is
Hey Michael,
You are running a GREAT site, no question. And you are doing a service to your country and its present and future citizens. I really liked your response. If people can't understand that this is YOUR site, then that is their problem. I really appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness in answering people's complaints. Ron Paul inspires me and you do also. When I see people that are doing what you are doing at such a high level for great purpose, I get inspired and have more hope for the future. There are still a lot of smart, good, decent people out there that are willing to help the cause. Good Day!
Thanks
To John & the other posters,
Where should I begin? It has been a long and interesting journey for me running this website, as I've had to grapple with many of the issues on display here. The bottom line is that I can't please everyone with my decisions. If I did not have the "flag as offensive" option, this site would be overrun with much, much more useless and offensive posts than it is now. I thank all the people who use the option. There is no way I can monitor all of the activity that goes on around here - there is just too much. This site is an avocation for me. I work from home, so I can monitor it some, but I can't monitor everything 24/7, obviously.
I've set up what I believe to be clear guidelines for the website, and a clear mission. That mission is to support Ron Paul in his election bids for President and Congress. Many people erroneously believe that this is a "public forum," that they should be able to say anything they want without penalty and that their "right" is protected by the First Amendment. This is not the case. This is a privately owned website. If I, or the community deletes a post, this is not censorship. You have the option and the right to go open your own blog, forum or website. This site did not appear by magic. It took, and continues to take considerable effort and money on my part to keep this thing going.
You said,
.
Thank you for your opinion, but I disagree. If you would like to set such a site up, I encourage you to do so. If you don't want to go that route, you might want to visit the Ron Paul War Room instead. This site fills a need, as do the others. I don't know what the "censorship" policy is on the official site, but for those of you who want the unrestricted free-for-all, to say what you like and post what you like, please go to the Ron Paul War Room and tell me how you like it.
As far as there being a "small band" of people going around deleting posts, this is not true. I have reviewed the logs and it is not the same people doing the work - it is a huge variety of people that are helping keep the information on this site in line. In my opinion, they are doing good work, deleting posts that are not relevant to the mission of this site, which, as I said, is getting Ron Paul elected president.
I have seen the site grow, and go through many growing pains. This is another one of those periods. Many people are sad, frustrated and dejected at this point in the campaign. There is a lot of negativity coming out. I can understand it. But the mission of this site is to support the campaign, not wallow in negativity.
Recently, there has been a huge outbreak of "911 truther" posts. Mind you, I have nothing against the truthers, nor against their right to free speech. However, as this does not fit into the mission of this site I don't mind having those posts deleted, and I have deleted many myself. There are plenty of places on the net to discuss those and other ideas as well. If people persist in placing such posts, I can and will ban their accounts.
Once again, if you think this is against Ron Paul's position of "free speech and liberty" then I suggest you read Dr. Paul a little more closely. To give anyone who still doesn't understand an analogy, consider this. You have the right to say that your boss is an idiot, incompetent, and a jerk. That is your right of free speech. If you go into his office and tell him that, and he fires you, he will not be violating your right to free speech.
I hope that clarifies things. For now, I have some work to do.
OK, I get it.
From now on I will only post stuff here that directly assists in the campaign to gain power for Dr Paul.
I'll look for another forum to post information or start debates on issues that I think are important for us Paulites to consider. Remember, Dr Paul is the leader, but he also listens to his supporters. I suspect he prefers supporters to followers.
I'm not sure if your suggestion to go to the Ron Paul War Room is tongue in cheek, but I'll check it out.
Once again thanks for building a very powerful tool to advance Dr Paul's cause.
No personal ax to grind
I don't think I've had any of my own threads or postings flagged. So I don't have a personal ax to grind. But I have had threads that I was following disappeared.
I still visit this site to skim the headings, and occasionally will delve into the postings, but I too am finding this forum less relevant from as recently as four months ago.
The site which has taken DailyPaul's place, and the one I recommend, is the General Politics subtopic, under the Liberty Forest topic of Ron Paul Forums.com, not to be confused with Ron Paul Forum.com (singular).
Thanks for the tip
Thanks Number19. I'll check it out.
I had a look at Ron Pauls War Room. At first glance it looked a bit chaotic.
The more informed we are on a wide spectrum of political topics, the more convincing we can be as we seek to open people's eyes to RP's message.
Thank you!
Thank you for explaining yourself. As always, I continue to trust in your moderation, but wish that you personally would do more and give users less power to delete posts that don't conform to some orthodoxy.
The "orthodoxy" is spelled out
rather clearly in Michael's Forum rules. Rule #1 should be of particular interest to you.
If you respect Ron Paul's message, then please respect the Forum's rules.
Thank you Michael!
You have said it best and I for one appreciate you stepping in! This is a Ron Paul supporter forum not a public chat room!
Thanks for all your hard work!
Kick butt Mike
There are a lot of folks who are working against us...ring'em up.
Very well said!
Very well said!
DP=Dedicated to restoring Constitutional Government to the US'
Read the Caption above under 'Daily Paul'. This is what manystrom has decided the objective/mission/intention of the DP is.
So what falls under this category is what we should be discussing. Getting RP elected is only one aspect of restoring constitutional government.
And at this point,I think we can all agree that Ron Paul himself agrees. It is not only the RP election needed to restore freedom.
Basically
included in the ' flag it group ' would be Secret Empire agents. These average internationalists realize the power of this site and these posts and monitor it in order to delete anything not in their favor! Or flood it with useless posts to keep people annoyed! If you remove the flag as offensive option the situation may improve.
JUST IGNORE THEM
JUST
IGNORE
THE
BS
Jeez, maybe we do need big brother to tell us what to do...how can we take back our own country when we can't even act civilized on a forum?
Don't be discouraged. Keep posting positive things, asking legitimate questions, forwarding positive news and info. Ignore the crap, just as you do in your "off-line" world.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein
Well while we are
asking about to censor or not why is there an Obama ad by google on the bottom of this website??
OH NO
The ad had me at "change"!! I must vote for Obama now!! Sorry folks! :)
Obama will let you say what you want
as long as it dos not promote free markets, liberty and capitalism, and a republican form of government as he and Hillary slip their hands onto your pockets to fleece you.
If someone redacting comments on a website of their creation causes you to chnage your vote...visit www.ronpaullibrary.org and get off the blogs.
I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!
Previously known as DCALIFANO
If you don't think there is a problem, study this.
I became aware of threads disappearing because I made a controversial post about America - China relations in the context of Ron Paul's policies.
Opinions ranged between two widely divergent polar opposites.
The Bill O'Rielly inspired school (now I'm being provocative) that thinks, "The only good commie is a dead commie."
The other that says we should have a closer look at China because her economy is booming, and some of their policies are similar to what Ron Paul is advocating.
Some people from the first school were incensed. But their disparaging comments mostly fell within the forum guidelines for civility.
Some people wrote long toughtful informative posts. But the threads were flagged and deleted within a few hours.
The forum is suffering from the excesses of self appointed, over-diligent, inquisitorial, unappointed moderators.
Check out this person for example.
Falsely calling good guy a troll
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Some other examples.
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
I responded to this
I responded to this elsewhere - as usual he insists on posting the same thing over and over - a violation of the rules here. At least its not all caps!
I checked each one out and I am right. This guy is a troll and should be banned but we do not have that power.
BTW I have only one account so any deletions are done by six others in addition to me - so there are other rational users on this site, thankfully.
You and your six friends are
You and your six friends are doing a disservice to the hundreds of others that want open, honest discussion. The only reason we're here is because of Ron Paul. Lighten up.
I don't understand how a lot
I don't understand how a lot of energy being invested by a bunch of people on this site furthers our objective of getting Ron Paul elected. Perhaps you could elaborate.
www.paulforronpaul.com
John - Mayberry has problems with EVERYONES posts!
Its become extremely annnoying. He never has anything positive to say ever. Why should he or anyone be allowed to just keep deleting everything.
For all we know he has numerous membership names here, and flags everything himself.
Previously known as DCALIFANO
The links above are not to her flagging my posts
Mayberry is a very active flagger.
She(?) believes she is acting for the good of the forum. I think.
She does say some good things, and I believe that she really wants to help Ron Paul as much as she can.
I only disagree with her tactically. But she shouldn't be allowed to just keep deleting everything. My guess is that she probably flags about 5 to 10 posts an hour when she is at the forum.
One button click equals 20 minutes writing? I don't think that is fair.
Daily Paul
This site use to be about what was going on around the country about Ron Paul. I came here to see the news of the day.
Now 1/2 of the posts are negitive crap that have ZERO to do with news or information.
So yes, I flag A LOT. I post some harsh words and get flagged a lot.
Specially on the crap 9/11 truther threads. They have there own web site, they don't need to post over here.
i AGREE
The site is not what it used to be. Not much info; lame articles or half truths and speculations. I also used to come to the site for any news mention of RP. Maybe he's not getting so many mentions now?
In any case,the Daily Paul says it is 'dedicated to restoring constitutional government to the United States'. That is not the same thing as 'dedicated to electing Ron Paul as the next president of the United States'. Ya know?
Just an FYI: This from About DP
"...represents the efforts of a private US citizen - me - to help Dr. Paul in his bid for President of the United States in 2008."
Suggestion...
I agree, there are no "real" moderators here so we need to come up with something. How about we have two buttons, much like youtube, one for flagging as offensive and the other approving the thread... positive and negative. That way we could defend the good posts. The post wouldn't get deleted until the total negative went to X but we could always raise that number if enough people thought the post was useful.
Moderators
There are plenty of moderators here, just that most are not aggressive enough for fear of stepping on toes and erring on the side of fairness. But some people overstep their bounds, like the person who was told to stop posting something and copied it in at least 15 more times that night!
But you read Mike's post -- this is not a time to resurrect truther subjects or other things that have nothing to do with promoting Dr. Paul. It's called 'off-topic'. I can't count how many times I've repeated the TOS that Mike originally set up (no bumping, no caps, no repetitive comments, no swearing, no trashing others) and then there are posts that are just a waste of time like third party whining or runnings mates, or severe negativity. This does not mean we blindly accept everything Dr. Paul does but if you believe what he stands for, and if you can READ, (I was shocked that you all thought he said he gave up, I mean I read the same letter?) there shouldn't be too much to be negative about and questions can be asked in a positive way.
I too was becoming frustrated because I could not find real information which is why I set up my own blog with JUST INFO and no forums or commenting.
Excellent suggestion.
Michael,
Is this something you could do?
Seems to have a lot of advantages.
e.g. one time set up and then automatic, stops an unrepresentative small sample from destroying people's work.
We could see if a thread was in danger of being deleted and give it a positive if it was deserved. Hey we could have an ongoing barometer of how people felt about an idea.
Ignore what you don't like and
go to Ron Paul Forums.
And go to Washington DC.
And just live with it we are completely infiltrated and need to fight for freedom anyway.
If you look on the bright side it is a compliment.
All these yahoos posting all their issues are representatives of the status quo.
They are being paid to discredit our movement. The powers that be see us as such a threat they hire these swine to try and stop us.
They are wh%$es for the establishment. They are on their backs,
The fact that they are here is convenient.
I can tell them they are scum to their faces.
It is a free country right? For a little while longer?
Cowards.
Sell outs.
Worms.
Rats.
For everyone else who tolerates them and keeps up the fight you are heroes.
There is a difference.
See you in DC.
I totally disagree
This site used to be a very informative and a proactive site in support of Dr Paul. Now it is nothing but a chaotic, chatroomlike atmosphere of negative, misinformed and inflitrated posts that have done nothing but hurt the campaign and the true supporters. This is not kindergarten folks, this is the real thing and as far as I'm concerned, there should be no volunteered posting on this website. I have read two many newspaper articles with "quotes" from daily paul posters that are radical and these newspapers used these planted posts to discredit Dr Paul.
My opinion? The good, informative posts on Daily Paul are far and few between now and die a rapid death because of a bunch of children using this website because they have nothing better to do. My position is that the abuse of this forum has gone on long enough and NO one should be able to post ranting, raving, lies and ridiculous statements anymore. The best way to do it now is for people to email posts to Mike or any other moderator for approval and they make the decision whether it is necessary information that supporters can discuss and contribute to get the job done.
If you look at most news articles online now you have to submit your posts now for approval to be posted. This is NOT suppresing freedom of speech, this is keeping the crazies and negative rumor spreaders from causing harm. Personally, Daily Paul is of no use to continue the revolution to me anymore and I will go to www.ronpaulforpresident20... from now on to get the facts and information on how to help Dr Paul get elected instead of listening to the ranting, ravings, lies and misinformation that most are posting on this site. Have fun children.
I agree completely further a
I agree completely
further a lot of those arguing for anti-flagging are the very ones who should be flagged more often.
In a place called Liberty
In a place called Liberty Forest at RPF I think people should be allowed to post anything.
Sorry accidental double post
Oops. Don't know how to delete post.
DP='Dedicated to Restoring Constitutional Government to the US'.
IF the DP is for 'getting RP elected'. However, the DP says it is 'Dedicated to restoring Constitutional Government to the United States'. That is a broad tent [to quote RP re: the GOP]...and a number of interlocking themes are relevant. I fall in the middle are far as flagging-I do agree the use of the word 'troll' is waaaaaaaaay too loose on the DP.And I have mainly flagged sexist/racist/discriminatory posts,which unfortunately are fairly common here AND do just as much damage to getting RP elected as do,say,threads discussing Global Warming and RP's stance on China. [IF those even do damage,per se.I happen to believe the discussions are at times warranted.]
If you look at the history of my threads,I have posted HQ messages,info about The Underground History of American Education [this died quickly,as do most threads about homeschooling,education,etc.]and info about GMO's and Rockefellers. I believe these issues are crucial to restoring Constitutional Government to the United States.
Add moderators, remove flags deletes
Sounds good. But, the question is, does Michael have access to enough trusted moderators to handle the workload?
This is a very active forum.
At the moment the delete system is quite arbitary. A handful of zealots can easily destroy a lot of people's hard work.
Flagging needs to go.
Flagging is not Ron Paul.
Imagine Ron Paul flagging anyone? no.
Flaggers are NOT Ron Paul.
I am Ron Paul and I do not flag.
If the stats on who is flagging was ever posted then we'd know in a flash who were against us and who was for us. Tar and feathering comes to mind.
Great idea!!!
Post flagging metrics by user id and then just disable the feature altogether. Or keep the flagging feature and just disable it for "chronic flaggers." Flagging is just too tempting for small minds.
FLAG NOTHING!!!
Democracy is two CFRs and one Libertarian voting for the next President of the United States.
Liberty is an astute politician armed with the facts to challenge the course our country is taking.
RP talks hard core
Rp is famous for standing up on the "Hard Core" issues and I think that it is important that we do too. No matter what, exercise your free speech!!
I think John Haig is a
I think John Haig is a troll.
The posting guidlines here are clear.
Spelling, Capitalization, off topic content are all laid out and easy to follow.
The purpose of this forum is to help elect Ron Paul.
All other posters should go elsewhere.
In fact, when you think about it, for example. the 'truthers' are coming here and stealing the limelight to promote their agenda - they are nothing but thieves! Truthers are Thieves! They steal the headlines and try to destroy the good with the bad.
I wish this forum had a moderator - there are so many trolls here it really is hurting the cause.
I heard Ron Paul was a troll
for the Libertarian party.
But that of course was wrong, too.
Democracy is two CFRs and one Libertarian voting for the next President of the United States.
Liberty is an astute politician armed with the facts to challenge the course our country is taking.
Mayberry labels many people TROLL
Mayberry believes the forum needs a moderator so much that she has appointed herself as one.
She called a precinct leader who had donated $1,000 to the campaign a troll.
I would love to see her(?) stats for flagging as offensive.
7 flags delete bad posts.
7 flags delete bad posts.
every visitor
who doesn't totally agree with the dailypaul doctrine is a troll. That shouldn't be too hard to understand considering how so many visitors here beleive in so many conspiracy theories. It's crazy, yet still entertaining.
Bump...
WE have trolls flagging good posts !!
The Flag system needs to GO.. IF we are going to let anyone join and no one be barred then you have to realize there are unfriendlies here and let everything stay.
Even very offensive post's.
Someone just flagged the Obama post and it was a great post full of information on Obama.
You can't trust the Flags when you have enemies in the camp !!
Since, we let them in the camp and are idiotic that way in the name of "free speach" we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
What army would let the enemy hand out in their bivouc.
This is the biggest problem we have had.
Before debates we give away the answers to stay away from.
We reveal the strategy to the enemy allowing them to stop it.
Freaking Idiotic !! Huckabee at least has the common sense to keep the trolls out.