All the incidents that people call accidents are actually the result of cause and effect. Auto accidents, this explosion, and any other, while maybe not deliberate, are the result of some cause. Someone didn't follow safety procedures or someone deliberately set it off. Tell me what event was an accident and I bet we can derive at the causal action.
and I'm not interested in this one more link I have to check out to "decide for myself." I don't have an extra 30,000 hrs. a day to "decide for myself" about every little thing.
Without a daily conspiracy they would worry that the end times happened, they missed it, and begin to sip the arsenic laced Flavor-Aid.
It's only because somebody is out to get them is there a reason to live. Without it, they become normal human beings who have no secrets worth conspiring against and their lives become meaningless.
Did you see RP featured on COlbert Report recently?
The part where they had him saying 'the earth revolves around the sun'...and everyone thinks he's crazy?
Point: You are correct,people indeed contrive their identities via CT,as well as a myriad of other things in life. [Including RP movement]. The possibility is always that what is one's medicine becomes one's poison.
At the same time,this does not negate that real information,truthful information,may be contained within the field.
How has anyone,throughout history,found out anything contrary to what 'those in power' have told them?
Well,you gotta pick a few weeds,but eventually you get the answers. Gotta dig.
So,while I agree mostly with your analysis,here and below in this thread,taking the opposite stance just validates the stance you are attempting to refute.
sometimes hatched and carried out. My problem is with the mindset that thinks every event is part of a subset of a grand, all-encompassing conspiracy apparatus, the Wizard of Oz illness. The larger and more elaborate a supposed plot becomes, the greater the likelihood of it being discovered, of someone talking, of moves becoming obvious. In essence, the plots fall apart.
So when the paranoid fantasies take over one's critical thinking apparatus, every refinery explosion or pipeline break is blamed on the Conspiracy. It is interesting to note again that a major presidential candidate exhibits a similar paranoid worldview in the person of Hillary Clinton. Any problems she encounters are blamed, by her, on right wing conspirators. Not much different from the paranoia that afflicted Richard Nixon in his later days. Ron Paul exhibits none of this.
On the other hand,many policies we oppose, while having certain facets that involve behind the scenes meetings, manipulations or planning, are quite publicly known if citizens would bother. The CFR thinking is not hidden and conspiratorial, it's promoted via their own publications! The Texas transportation corridor isn't a conspiracy, it's actively supported by the state's governor. The control of agriculture that we discussed elsewhere is not a conspiracy, but a business plan to corner a market. The idea to create a North American Union isn't a conspiracy, but has been clearly addressed by senior officials in the Clinton White House and others in various internationalist think tanks in DC.
It would behoove us to stick to opposing those real and demonstrable planned policies and may resonate with the public.
That is the trick.
The fact that the CFR is now public,does not mean that every 'means' they are using via their 'partnerships',both public and private' are revealed.
Again,plots are 'hatched'as you said,and many times it is those who 'dig' who must reveal some of the facts.
I completely agree with you that individuals lose site of reason in the face of much information.
While the info is available,it is only 'the current step' which is out in the open fully. And what is the agenda once a "NWO" has been attained?
That is question we need to ask ourselves at this point. Not discussing particulars about whether or not or how a NWO is coming in to play.
I believe this is what both sides of the CT ends up doing-arguing particulars. Who is more effective in the struggle,so to speak.
What is the 'normalcy' that you advocate,as far as living a 'normal life',not attaining one's identity and reason through the latest CT?
Hmmm....do you have a foundation of reality that is not built upon illusion?
One question,for many out there constantly worried about the effects of CT's on the RP campaign: How many personally have met people who are turned off b/c of it?
Has a survey been taken? I'm not saying it's not true; I would just like to know. B/C at this point,I see mostly the media labelling them as 'kooks' and the MSM tying them to the RP campaign.
It is not the 'info',but how the 'info' is used.
Case in point: Perhaps the oil refinery was an accident,BUT,how the accident is then used to create a certain response,how it is tied into the price of oil,supply of oil,etc. IS a valid consideration.
And,I agree,that many DP posters seem to wish to post every thought as a thread. You have the right to remain silent,someone said below. And I agree with that,as well.
By definition are happening all the time. It takes getting one's head out of the ~sheeple~ mentality to start connecting the dots. No, I'm not into reptilians ruling the earth or the latest UFO sighting... but some things do actually happen for a reason that you personally are not aware of. So it's a good thing to bring up the question and have it shot down and debunked, or wonder if there is a reason to have it looked at more closely.
Nothing wrong with actually using your brain and an internet connection, instead of blindly agreeing with what the MSM tells you.
No no no, see, the conspiracy buffs think that two or more people can be capable of communicating with each other towards a common goal benefiting all of those involved. Clearly untrue, this certainly cannot be the case if TV has done its job as well as we think it has, isolating everyone. Of course, we are still capable of carrying out conspiracies, and do so all the time, but that's not a problem because everyone who knows about our conspiracies gets labelled a "nut", the rest are afraid they will get labelled too by merely beginning to think for themselves.
So instead of using the television for your information, you're now suggesting that people switch to the Internet?
That's like saying instead of eating a poop sandwich switch to diarrhea soup.
Despite what people may say about them, for legal reasons, the MSM does have a certain level of standards that the Internet does not.
For instance, the New York Times cannot run an article that says "Devon Saunders Molests Goats" unless they can prove that claim. If they can't you can sue the NYT for libel. Just as they can't run articles that are completely made up. Even within the media world they don't let people run blatant lies -they are fairly good at policing their own.
Lucky for the people on the Internet that the Supreme Court ruled public figures are fair game. If they hadn't we'd see the Internet evolve much more like the print segment of the world, where facts are verified and scrutinized.
But that didn't happen. Now every two-bit troglodyte with a soapbox can run himself as an expert when they have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. Which brings us to the whole "conspiracy" mantra. Half the things they talk about are just repeated urban legends and the other half that are based on facts are hyperbole, stretching the facts into a near cartoon-ish version of the world.
I also love the people who post the "documentary" videos. If we want to accept the "documentaries" as complete fact, then Michael Moore should be quoted as often as Alex Jones. They both have their points, but the points are stretched to such a thin vertex that it becomes a polarizing conversation topic and not an objective research into the world.
Most people, however, lack the critical thinking skills to decipher fact from fiction; and in doing so (i.e. running conspiracy theories) have taken a nice big shit over the things I like. So, for instance, when people support Ron Paul and use the "While I'm talking to you about Ron Paul" arena to bring up the conspiracies they have, in effect, taken a nice big shit all over my candidate. In doing so they have convoluted the Paul message into some a platform of wild indictments against the US government, accusations against other Paul supporters, and created a great detriment to the campaign in general.
My overall problem is: it is irresponsible behavior on their part to make the Ron Paul message the message of conspiracies. I do not go to inforwars and reense because that is there space to wear their aluminum foil.
As I stated previously, most people have no clue what it is they're talking, theorizing, or conjecturing about -yet hold true to that idiocy despite evidence to the contrary. To be very succinct, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."
Conspiracy belief helps to explain away the various "bad" things that happen to us. How can such evil exist? It must be a plot, a plot which by uncovering, we can have power over. However, if we look at American political life as a reflection of our own broad social ineptness, stupidity and greed, we feel powerless in overcoming it.
People did not want to believe an obsure, unimportant loser could kill a popular president. Instead, elaborate but unprovable plots were constructed and became social myth. There were competing theories. They expanded and contracted. Evidence was disregarded if it didn't fit into an exciting story of high-level intrigue.
All of this so completely distracts from building a legitimate political movement around Ron Paul and our ability to take real steps to return to legimate and smaller government. I think the Obama campaign probably has alot of these sorts of paranoids as well, but with his larger scale success, they are not prominent around his campaign.
Recall Hillary with her "grand right wing conspiracy"..many of the loonies on the left (some of whom I think are here) chimed in with her on that one. Generated dozens of websites trying to "expose" the conspiracy and empowered idiots like MoveOn and Huffington.
Freedom of speech is important, and I support everyone's right to express their views. However, I also believe there is a corollary responsibility to exercise some judgment and not express every half-baked idea that passes through one's head.
Conspiracy theorists: You have the right to remain silent. Please avail yourself of that right.
You knew this thread would be this way, so why did you read it, much less, waste your valuable time to reply?
I, for one, enjoy the exchange of ideas. I'm not about to start labeling people with these denigrating names and/or tell them to keep their ideas to themselves just because they are proffering an idea that runs counter to mainstream thought. It is because we have been conditioned to think of these ideas as "kooky" that a lot of awful things have been allowed to happen.
There was a time when I thought RealID, Nau, etc, was a complete joke. "Not in America!" I stand corrected on that. I rule nothing out now.
Because conspiracy theorists are driving mainstream voters away from RP's campaign and turning DailyPaul into a circus.
Are you here to elect RP and restore the Constitution, or are you here to promote some pet theory / personal agenda?
Many of us are working very hard in real life to elect RP -- running for RNC delegate, collecting signatures for candidates on the ballot, letter writing campaings, donating money, canvassing voters, and more. We do not appreciate the conspiracy lobby undoing our hard work when sympathetic voters arrive at the DailyPaul.
and I am doing those things as well. I have no one theory and my only agenda is FREEDOM.
Ask yourself this one question: as proponents of the the Constitution, and thereby, proponents of free speech, what might all these sympathetic voters think of repeated name calling, and vitriolic outbursts against those exercising their right to express their point of view?
Might it not seem that we don't practice what we preach?
There is a difference between winning an argument and making a sale.
I don't give a rats rear-end whether your pet theories are right or wrong. I'm trying to elect a man to office who will at least listen to you. If you want to push your fringe agenda prematurely, you'll lose both the election and any chance of a proper hearing by those in government.
I want to convince these voters to elect Ron Paul. Your personal agenda nonsense comes later, once the RP beachhead is established. There is a sequence ... to violate the sequence assures defeat.
1) I clearly stated that I have no agenda aside from freedom, much less do I have a "fringe agenda". I freely admit that I don't know what I don't know and I'm not about to say that I do. Unlike you.
2) To put it into your vernacular, you are "selling" Constitutional restoration and freedom, yes? To quash civil discourse, simply because YOU find it distasteful, is at odds to what you are "selling".
Therefore:
It can be safely stated that, by your own terms and conditions, YOU are more detrimental to the sale of your product than those who came here to discuss their points of view.
I'm going to assume that you're Presidente for the opposition then? Nobody called conspiracy theory here... you used the word. A person posted a question.. it got debunked.. the world will keep spinning.
And don't tell me that mainstream voters are being driven away by talking about an issue... if that's the case then they're useless to the movement anyways. We need people that are awake... not people that are quick to marginalize anyone that doesn't have the same beliefs that they do. I'll use you as an example.
You may start looking around and find that a big bunch of us here have been RP followers since before the campaign. We'll be here after as well. It's the message, not the man.
Again... the topic came up, it got debunked.. of course it was an accident... can we keep going instead of having a 3 hour conversation on how people that think are hurting RP's campaign?
Cause and effect
All the incidents that people call accidents are actually the result of cause and effect. Auto accidents, this explosion, and any other, while maybe not deliberate, are the result of some cause. Someone didn't follow safety procedures or someone deliberately set it off. Tell me what event was an accident and I bet we can derive at the causal action.
Live Free Or Die
I believe it was an accident
___________________________________________________
A perfect God is not made imperfect by imperfect people.
Edited: I mean, yep, not nope
and I'm not interested in this one more link I have to check out to "decide for myself." I don't have an extra 30,000 hrs. a day to "decide for myself" about every little thing.
no, everything that happens in this world is by design
of a few guys in a government office. Each car crash, each fall off a cliff, each rowboat sinking...sheesh
I think it was...
...an accident.
You've obviously never been to Texas
Oil refineries and chemical plants blow up all the time. It's tragic, but I don't see anything sinister here.
Agreed
I work for a lil place called Conoco/Phillips.. refineries have accidents all the time.
What would dailypaul
do without a daily conspiracy theory?
The Suicide Pact would be executed.
Without a daily conspiracy they would worry that the end times happened, they missed it, and begin to sip the arsenic laced Flavor-Aid.
It's only because somebody is out to get them is there a reason to live. Without it, they become normal human beings who have no secrets worth conspiring against and their lives become meaningless.
The message vs. the messenger
Did you see RP featured on COlbert Report recently?
The part where they had him saying 'the earth revolves around the sun'...and everyone thinks he's crazy?
Point: You are correct,people indeed contrive their identities via CT,as well as a myriad of other things in life. [Including RP movement]. The possibility is always that what is one's medicine becomes one's poison.
At the same time,this does not negate that real information,truthful information,may be contained within the field.
How has anyone,throughout history,found out anything contrary to what 'those in power' have told them?
Well,you gotta pick a few weeds,but eventually you get the answers. Gotta dig.
So,while I agree mostly with your analysis,here and below in this thread,taking the opposite stance just validates the stance you are attempting to refute.
you are correct to point out that indeed plots are
sometimes hatched and carried out. My problem is with the mindset that thinks every event is part of a subset of a grand, all-encompassing conspiracy apparatus, the Wizard of Oz illness. The larger and more elaborate a supposed plot becomes, the greater the likelihood of it being discovered, of someone talking, of moves becoming obvious. In essence, the plots fall apart.
So when the paranoid fantasies take over one's critical thinking apparatus, every refinery explosion or pipeline break is blamed on the Conspiracy. It is interesting to note again that a major presidential candidate exhibits a similar paranoid worldview in the person of Hillary Clinton. Any problems she encounters are blamed, by her, on right wing conspirators. Not much different from the paranoia that afflicted Richard Nixon in his later days. Ron Paul exhibits none of this.
On the other hand,many policies we oppose, while having certain facets that involve behind the scenes meetings, manipulations or planning, are quite publicly known if citizens would bother. The CFR thinking is not hidden and conspiratorial, it's promoted via their own publications! The Texas transportation corridor isn't a conspiracy, it's actively supported by the state's governor. The control of agriculture that we discussed elsewhere is not a conspiracy, but a business plan to corner a market. The idea to create a North American Union isn't a conspiracy, but has been clearly addressed by senior officials in the Clinton White House and others in various internationalist think tanks in DC.
It would behoove us to stick to opposing those real and demonstrable planned policies and may resonate with the public.
"If people would take the time"
That is the trick.
The fact that the CFR is now public,does not mean that every 'means' they are using via their 'partnerships',both public and private' are revealed.
Again,plots are 'hatched'as you said,and many times it is those who 'dig' who must reveal some of the facts.
I completely agree with you that individuals lose site of reason in the face of much information.
While the info is available,it is only 'the current step' which is out in the open fully. And what is the agenda once a "NWO" has been attained?
That is question we need to ask ourselves at this point. Not discussing particulars about whether or not or how a NWO is coming in to play.
I believe this is what both sides of the CT ends up doing-arguing particulars. Who is more effective in the struggle,so to speak.
What is the 'normalcy' that you advocate,as far as living a 'normal life',not attaining one's identity and reason through the latest CT?
Hmmm....do you have a foundation of reality that is not built upon illusion?
One question,for many out there constantly worried about the effects of CT's on the RP campaign: How many personally have met people who are turned off b/c of it?
Has a survey been taken? I'm not saying it's not true; I would just like to know. B/C at this point,I see mostly the media labelling them as 'kooks' and the MSM tying them to the RP campaign.
It is not the 'info',but how the 'info' is used.
Case in point: Perhaps the oil refinery was an accident,BUT,how the accident is then used to create a certain response,how it is tied into the price of oil,supply of oil,etc. IS a valid consideration.
And,I agree,that many DP posters seem to wish to post every thought as a thread. You have the right to remain silent,someone said below. And I agree with that,as well.
Conspiracies
By definition are happening all the time. It takes getting one's head out of the ~sheeple~ mentality to start connecting the dots. No, I'm not into reptilians ruling the earth or the latest UFO sighting... but some things do actually happen for a reason that you personally are not aware of. So it's a good thing to bring up the question and have it shot down and debunked, or wonder if there is a reason to have it looked at more closely.
Nothing wrong with actually using your brain and an internet connection, instead of blindly agreeing with what the MSM tells you.
No conspiracies
No no no, see, the conspiracy buffs think that two or more people can be capable of communicating with each other towards a common goal benefiting all of those involved. Clearly untrue, this certainly cannot be the case if TV has done its job as well as we think it has, isolating everyone. Of course, we are still capable of carrying out conspiracies, and do so all the time, but that's not a problem because everyone who knows about our conspiracies gets labelled a "nut", the rest are afraid they will get labelled too by merely beginning to think for themselves.
The slight flaw in your logic...
So instead of using the television for your information, you're now suggesting that people switch to the Internet?
That's like saying instead of eating a poop sandwich switch to diarrhea soup.
Despite what people may say about them, for legal reasons, the MSM does have a certain level of standards that the Internet does not.
For instance, the New York Times cannot run an article that says "Devon Saunders Molests Goats" unless they can prove that claim. If they can't you can sue the NYT for libel. Just as they can't run articles that are completely made up. Even within the media world they don't let people run blatant lies -they are fairly good at policing their own.
Lucky for the people on the Internet that the Supreme Court ruled public figures are fair game. If they hadn't we'd see the Internet evolve much more like the print segment of the world, where facts are verified and scrutinized.
But that didn't happen. Now every two-bit troglodyte with a soapbox can run himself as an expert when they have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. Which brings us to the whole "conspiracy" mantra. Half the things they talk about are just repeated urban legends and the other half that are based on facts are hyperbole, stretching the facts into a near cartoon-ish version of the world.
I also love the people who post the "documentary" videos. If we want to accept the "documentaries" as complete fact, then Michael Moore should be quoted as often as Alex Jones. They both have their points, but the points are stretched to such a thin vertex that it becomes a polarizing conversation topic and not an objective research into the world.
Most people, however, lack the critical thinking skills to decipher fact from fiction; and in doing so (i.e. running conspiracy theories) have taken a nice big shit over the things I like. So, for instance, when people support Ron Paul and use the "While I'm talking to you about Ron Paul" arena to bring up the conspiracies they have, in effect, taken a nice big shit all over my candidate. In doing so they have convoluted the Paul message into some a platform of wild indictments against the US government, accusations against other Paul supporters, and created a great detriment to the campaign in general.
My overall problem is: it is irresponsible behavior on their part to make the Ron Paul message the message of conspiracies. I do not go to inforwars and reense because that is there space to wear their aluminum foil.
As I stated previously, most people have no clue what it is they're talking, theorizing, or conjecturing about -yet hold true to that idiocy despite evidence to the contrary. To be very succinct, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."
http://www.unc.edu/depts/...
A Robotic Life
A robotic life,anyone? Bueller?
http://www.spiritinform.c...
Excellent job of summarizing the problem.
Conspiracy belief helps to explain away the various "bad" things that happen to us. How can such evil exist? It must be a plot, a plot which by uncovering, we can have power over. However, if we look at American political life as a reflection of our own broad social ineptness, stupidity and greed, we feel powerless in overcoming it.
People did not want to believe an obsure, unimportant loser could kill a popular president. Instead, elaborate but unprovable plots were constructed and became social myth. There were competing theories. They expanded and contracted. Evidence was disregarded if it didn't fit into an exciting story of high-level intrigue.
All of this so completely distracts from building a legitimate political movement around Ron Paul and our ability to take real steps to return to legimate and smaller government. I think the Obama campaign probably has alot of these sorts of paranoids as well, but with his larger scale success, they are not prominent around his campaign.
Recall Hillary with her "grand right wing conspiracy"..many of the loonies on the left (some of whom I think are here) chimed in with her on that one. Generated dozens of websites trying to "expose" the conspiracy and empowered idiots like MoveOn and Huffington.
I agree.
Freedom of speech is important, and I support everyone's right to express their views. However, I also believe there is a corollary responsibility to exercise some judgment and not express every half-baked idea that passes through one's head.
Conspiracy theorists: You have the right to remain silent. Please avail yourself of that right.
And so do you.
You knew this thread would be this way, so why did you read it, much less, waste your valuable time to reply?
I, for one, enjoy the exchange of ideas. I'm not about to start labeling people with these denigrating names and/or tell them to keep their ideas to themselves just because they are proffering an idea that runs counter to mainstream thought. It is because we have been conditioned to think of these ideas as "kooky" that a lot of awful things have been allowed to happen.
There was a time when I thought RealID, Nau, etc, was a complete joke. "Not in America!" I stand corrected on that. I rule nothing out now.
Because conspiracy theorists
Because conspiracy theorists are driving mainstream voters away from RP's campaign and turning DailyPaul into a circus.
Are you here to elect RP and restore the Constitution, or are you here to promote some pet theory / personal agenda?
Many of us are working very hard in real life to elect RP -- running for RNC delegate, collecting signatures for candidates on the ballot, letter writing campaings, donating money, canvassing voters, and more. We do not appreciate the conspiracy lobby undoing our hard work when sympathetic voters arrive at the DailyPaul.
Oh yes
and I am doing those things as well. I have no one theory and my only agenda is FREEDOM.
Ask yourself this one question: as proponents of the the Constitution, and thereby, proponents of free speech, what might all these sympathetic voters think of repeated name calling, and vitriolic outbursts against those exercising their right to express their point of view?
Might it not seem that we don't practice what we preach?
Something to think about, anyway.
There is a difference
There is a difference between winning an argument and making a sale.
I don't give a rats rear-end whether your pet theories are right or wrong. I'm trying to elect a man to office who will at least listen to you. If you want to push your fringe agenda prematurely, you'll lose both the election and any chance of a proper hearing by those in government.
I want to convince these voters to elect Ron Paul. Your personal agenda nonsense comes later, once the RP beachhead is established. There is a sequence ... to violate the sequence assures defeat.
Ok
1) I clearly stated that I have no agenda aside from freedom, much less do I have a "fringe agenda". I freely admit that I don't know what I don't know and I'm not about to say that I do. Unlike you.
2) To put it into your vernacular, you are "selling" Constitutional restoration and freedom, yes? To quash civil discourse, simply because YOU find it distasteful, is at odds to what you are "selling".
Therefore:
It can be safely stated that, by your own terms and conditions, YOU are more detrimental to the sale of your product than those who came here to discuss their points of view.
Your logic is flawed, and
Your logic is flawed, and you are not listening.
Oh, and your saying that you have no agenda doesn't make it so.
I am done here. You are wasting my time.
Um
The conspiracy lobby... LOL
I'm going to assume that you're Presidente for the opposition then? Nobody called conspiracy theory here... you used the word. A person posted a question.. it got debunked.. the world will keep spinning.
And don't tell me that mainstream voters are being driven away by talking about an issue... if that's the case then they're useless to the movement anyways. We need people that are awake... not people that are quick to marginalize anyone that doesn't have the same beliefs that they do. I'll use you as an example.
You may start looking around and find that a big bunch of us here have been RP followers since before the campaign. We'll be here after as well. It's the message, not the man.
Again... the topic came up, it got debunked.. of course it was an accident... can we keep going instead of having a 3 hour conversation on how people that think are hurting RP's campaign?
The original question itself
The original question itself insinuates conspiracy even if it did not use that exact term.
The rest of your comment doesn't merit response.
THIS Oil Refinery Blast.
I posted about this here on DP three hours ago. Dropped from the front page like a hot potato. Here's the info:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
What Texas refinery
blast? Is it here on the internets? Otherwise, unless I was there, I would have no idea how it , or if it happened.
Not saying you are wrong
but why would they do that?
to drive up the price of gasoline
and the stock prices of the oil companies.
BINGO!
I keep wondering how much more vicious and evil they can get, but then i remember their endame. They are trying to bleed us dry first!