PowerVote (Ron Paul as our Whip)
Posted February 21st, 2008 by Xthe17th
output
Please help me find the link(s) to this:
There was a thread, or a post to a thread here a few days ago about a new idea created by a CPA called "PowerVote". I cannot find the link(s) anymore. There was discussion about setting up a website with this name.
As I understood it, PowerVote is a unique (and completely legal) new idea whereby campaign contributions go into a pool and are distributed into accounts on a congressional vote-by-vote basis. Ron Paul would be our "Whip" or standard to measure other congresscritters by. Members of Congress who vote agains Ron Paul would start having funds built-up to fund a Ron Paul-like opposition candidate. When congresscritters vote with Dr. Paul, the contributions get "refunded".
The analogy was putting some lions into politics to occasionally take down a zebra or two.
Anyone who had these URLs bookmarked, please post them here for further discussion. Thank you.
Bookmark/Search this post with:
See PowerVote for Yourself Directly...
http://www.powervotenow.c... for the web page,
http://www.dailypaul.com/... for how to become a millionaire helping Ron Paul.
http://www.dailypaul.com/...... for the most extensive discussion to date in this forum.
http://www.wideopenwest.c... for a description of it.
Home Page addition
Go here please... read it... and send Michael a note...
www.dailypaul.com/node/39...
See it for yourself directly at...
http://www.powervotenow.c... for the web page,
http://www.dailypaul.com/... for how to become a millionaire helping Ron Paul.
http://www.dailypaul.com/... for the most extensive discussion to date in this forum.
http://www.wideopenwest.c... for a description of it.
A short time before this
A short time before this thread appeared, a thread titled "Who Here Wants to Become a Millionaire Helping Ron Paul? " had been up - with a few comments and questions posted in it.
That one vanished and has apparently been replaced with this thread now.. not sure what happened there.. but here's my last comments:
I truly believe that Powervote (the user) believes this idea will work. I've exchanged emails with him (her?), mostly about the website itself, and I get the impression that they aren't trying to be underhanded about anything.
That being said, I don't think this is a ponzi scheme, because PV hasn't discussed some kind of investment (hedge fund, etc).
On the other hand, I'm still not sure exactly where all the money would go. The information on the site about the idea is hard to follow and the reference to 'who cares what the FEC says about it' might scare some people off.
From what I understand, lets say I put $10 into this system, and a million other people do the same;
There is a resolution coming up for a vote in the House that RP opposes, and we want it opposed as well.
So Powervote (the system) gets ahold of all the officials who are supporting it and says "We have $10 million that we will use to support your polital opponents in the next election if you dont stop supporting this resolution".
If the official doesn't back off - and ends up supporting the resolution, their name(s) go on a list of 'to be defeated' for the next election cycle.
This information is then made available on a web site, so the officials can see their names 'in lights' as being a target for defeat.
In the meantime, that $10 million is split in half. $5 is returned to me, and the other million people, with a note that says "RP suggests that you use this money to support the campaign of whoever runs against _____".
What I'm not sure of is, where does the other $5 go?
I 'think' that it goes to RP to do with as he pleases, but if that is the case I dont see how anyone 'becomes a millionaire'.
If it doesn't go to RP, and that $5 is kept by the person who collected it, then it is basically a 50% from every dollar put into the system 'profit' for the recipient, which is used for managing the fund and collecting more revenues later.
If it does go to RP only 'sometimes', we'd need to know pretty exact reasons why it would.
If someone is going to put a dollar into a system like this, or ten, or a hundred, etc.. they're going to want to see exactly where every dollar goes.
If it goes to RP (as the 'whip') they'll want to know what circumstances are needed to be met for the money to go (and how much) to RP.
If it comes back to them, which I think has been explained already, they'll want to know the when/why/how much about that money.
If any of money doesn't get passed to the 'whip', and doesn't get refunded to the original provider of the money, people are going to want to know exactly where the remaining money goes - who can use it - what it can be used for - and under what conditions can it go there.
On the surface this is a very interesting and potentially powerful idea - but since it is 'new', it's going to take more than a couple pages on a web site to convince people to accept it.
Lastly, having pictures of rifles pointing with crosshairs at 'targets', and those targets being listed as government officials is probably the worst idea I've seen in a long time (might want to change that to a finger pointing or something hehe).
I'm personally reserving judgement for now, but I thought I would add that the way this idea is presented it appears to be one of two things:
1. Collecting large amounts of money from a group of people (whether it is private citizens or corporations) and using it for some type of political pressure I 'think' falls into the political action committee arena.
If it doesn't, I'd like to know why it doesn't.
2. Taking those funds and contacting government officials, making them offers with it, either in 'we will fund your efforts' or 'we will fund your opponents efforts' already has a name. It's called a 'lobby'.
If PV can explain why this idea is different from both of those, and why it doesn't fall under the same government regulations that every other person/entity who approaches a government official with large sums of money fall under, I think more people would be interested.
I can see the power that a system like this could put into the hands of a 'whip' - I just dont see any evidence to show why it's immune from the campaign finance and lobbyist laws that are currently on the books.
CF
Who Here Wants to be a millionaire helping ron paul
I can't find it anywhere...I think it must have been deleted. There was no intention to replace that page with this.
As far as campaign finance laws go, unless you study the laws and advisory opinions of the fec, i don't see how you'll know without asking them. I assume see http://www.fec.gov
I think that's basically the
I think that's basically the point. I've seen people ask the question about the legality of this idea, and I've seen your response that says either "who cares?" or "Yes, it is legal".
I think people can understand the "who cares" answer, because we're not all great fans of the FEC here. But it still doesn't really answer the question.
A closer answer is "Yes, it is legal", but it still doesn't answer the questions/concerns from people who want proof that it is legal or, at least, evidence that it isn't illegal.
When asked, you say 'go ask the FEC'. I'm sorry, but that isn't our job - it is yours. If you are saying this is legal then you must have some reason to believe it is other than 'who cares'.
Crossing the FEC or other political lobby/fundraising/PAC regulations isn't something to take lightly. People can be fined, imprisoned and reputations destroyed from doing something outside the boundaries of the laws.
I think you'll have a much greater acceptance and willingness to participate in this idea if you can demonstrate how this idea doesn't apply to FEC/PAC/Lobbyist regulations - and why it doesn't apply to them.
There are many of us here who have followed the political legislation and rules put in place to stop the activity that you are suggesting here. We can see how this idea could be interpreted as a lobby, a political action committee, or even a campaign fundraiser.
Each of those activities has regulations and laws.
I'm not saying it can't be done - but if there are regulations on how it has to be legally presented, then those regulations have to be followed.
If it falls under some FEC guideline as a PAC, then you'll need to set up an FEC PAC for this to be legal.
If it falls under legislation regarding lobbying, then you'll have to find out what that legislation says you have to do - and then do it.
On the other hand, if this isn't definable as a political action committee, lobbyist effort or fundraiser - you'll have to explain 'why' it isn't.
Do that, and you'll get the response from people you're looking for :)
CF
It's as legal as anything...
Ah..."the chillig effect" of campaign finance law referred to in the landmark Supreme Court Opinion of Buckley vs Valeo. That's why the FEC is forced by law to issue free opinions on any issue where anybody is afraid of the interpretation of campaign finance law. Having said that, I say it's legal. Your making a deposit of money for the purpose of having the amount shown on a board for the purpose of showing how much financial support there is behind a cause and and leader (the whip). You are not making a deposit for the PRIMARY purpose of influencing an election. You're also subscribing to a publication that will tell what Ron Paul wants you to do with your money when it's refunded. Of course, as the fund builds and lawmakers want to know Ron Paul's target priorities, Ron Paul is welcome to post those on his office door or he can make it public by telling powervote (or anybody else for that matter).
I can see where another vendor might be afraid to sell this. I'm not. On the other hand, if soneone is afraid to make a political statement, or subscribe to a publication, then I won't be working too hard trying to sell them. Why would I want them to have the rare power and freedom that comes with PowerVotenow.com. I can't believe they have the opinions and political demands of a true patriot.
Of course, it's not a 100% for sure legal until we have a Supreme Court opinion directly on the enterprise. Again, if somebody insists on waiting for that, they don't deserve freedom.
I think the problem is that
I think the problem is that any money that is used to influence someone in politics, that money is considered a political fund.
Provided you never actually give the money to any person at all, you're safe as can be. If the money just sits there as a threat on a promise, then you haven't actually handed the money to anyone.
But the system you are describing does, in fact, provide funds to a political official. Whether it is to contribute to a campaign to support someone, or if it is handed over to RP to do with as he sees fit - the money exchanges hands.
And at that point, the laws and regulations of the FEC and lobbyist groups comes into play full swing.
Using your assumption that the rules dont apply here, a corporation could also say the rules dont apply to them when they give tons of money to a campaign, or pass a bundle of cash to a politician that they want to vote in their favor on something. Yet we all know that there are strict rules involved in that kind of activity.
This would make more sense if you took out the part where powervotenow actually gives any money at all to a politician.
If it were more like, "You pledge your dollars to a cause - That cause is promoted on the pvn site - the whip can use the numbers posted (pledges) as influence over other politicians - if those politicians dont agree to follow the whip's request, the whip then tells the pledgers what campaign they should support in the next election", I think it would bypass the rules.
At that point, no money actually exchanged hands. Only a 'suggestion' was given by the whip to the pledgers. If the pledgers want the system to work - they'll have to do as the whip says and donate to the campaign he selected.
I fear that the instant any money goes from pvn to an actual politician, you have just become a political action committee.
The reason I think it falls into the PAC category is because a PAC is;
"An organization of 50 or more people that is created to raise money for favored political candidates"
or
"Political committees that are not the official committees of any candidate or political party. "
or
"A group organized to promote its members' views on selected issues, usually through raising money that is contributed to the campaign funds of candidates who support the group's position, or to the campaign funds of candidates who are running against an opposing-view candidate."
or
"A private group, regardless of size, organized to elect or defeat government officials or to promote legislation."
It basically depends on which definition you want to use, but other than the first one (50 or more people) it appears what you are describing is indeed a PAC.
CF
I thought you got it?
That's the whole point of the deposit...under ALL CIRCUMTSTANCES any contribution that is made is always made by the original depositor when the money is refunded. Under no circumstances does PowerVote ever make a campaign contribution, nor does the Whip, ron paul. The 50% that is kept is a fee for the service.
A pledge? Surely you jest. By the way, a pledge does not change the legality of anything.
I think I'm catching on a
I think I'm catching on a bit more now.
So let's say that you have a million members that all donate ten bucks each toward an issue.
If the whip says "I suggest the money gets used to promote candidate 'A' in the upcoming election", the pvn site then returns $5 to each user (5 million dollars) and those users would then give that $5 to candidate 'A'.
That leaves 5 million dollars still in the pvn account. If I'm understanding this right, you say that it is kept by pvn as a fee for the service (this would be.. your income?).
On your site it says "The other half of the monies received can be spent or kept by the Whip as he or she sees fit. Under no circumstance is the Whip liable to return this non-deposit portion of the monies."
You have said that you want Ron Paul to be the whip. So by the information in those two sentences, you intend to give Ron Paul half the money to spend as he sees fit, and Ron Paul is not liable to return the non-deposit portion of the moneys".
But then you say in the above reply (in this thread) that no candidate gets any money directly from pvn.
That's where the confusion rests. EIther the candidate does get the money - which makes pvn a PAC, or they dont get the money, which makes the last two sentences on your site's homepage incorrect.
Not as confused as before, but this item does need an answer.
CF
There are different ways of doing it...
50% of the money is a non-refundable service fee. If you raised the money, you would keep this fee. If Ron Paul raised it, ie it went directly to him, he could keep or use it to pay whomever helped him raise the money. If PowerVote raised the money, then PowerVote would keep it. I would think of it like a commission or subscription fee. True free enterprise, whoever does the work of raising the money gets to earn it.
I think it is a great idea, but I think we all have money going
into Ron Paul's campaign right now. I would be interested in donating to this after the campaign. To answer your question, I don't know how to find this site. It gets posted up here often though. Keep up the great work!!!!!
Free Your Mind...
We've lived our whole lives subject to the tyranny of campaign finance laws. It's hard for us to picture the true benefits of freedom. I can guarantee you that this freedom will mean you'll forget about making "political donations." Powervote deposits and the service fee charged by whomever sold them to you is all you'll typically pay.
powervotenow.com
the forum title was attention rp fundraisers.