Soldiers getting court martialed need help
Posted February 27th, 2008 by paul4won
output
I don't have all the answers for what is right or wrong in a war, but until the Bush administration is held responsible for starting this war with a barrage of lies, I find it reprehensible that our sons and daughters get tried for the crimes that result. In this case, it appears they intend to ruin the lives of innocent soldiers.
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Perhaps This Is A Subject Best Left To Die -- BUT
Vote RON PAUL 2008
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As you can see -- I'm bringing it up again. Hope you can understand why. I'll try to briefly explain: It's because as I said earlier elsewhere in this thread, people are to be held accountable for their own actions // One crazy soldier does not represent us all in peacetime or in battle. Each individual must stand in answer for their own actions.
Now is this (the video link I provide below) one of those same soldiers you are relating to in your basic thread, one that you feel has been wronged because of war, one you feel there is someone (??) other than their own misconduct that is out to ruin the lives of innocent soldiers? Just me asking out of shame to be associated with anyone that would do such horrific things as this (if true):
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Who was it said: Either you're with us or you're with the terrorist?
Well, who exactly are the terrorist? That'd be my question.
BRING OUR TROOPS HOME -- NOW
Not Exactly Me Trying To Change Subject Here BUT War Is Hell
Vote RON PAUL 2008
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Here's an example of a WAR HERO (for comparison sake) //
http://www.military.com/N...
The only thing wrong with this picture is it took our beloved US government 60 f-ing years to get their act together and recognize this hero for his devotion to the human race.
Just tell your friend going into a combat zone to remember and abide by these simple rules //
--- Military Code Of Conduct
Article I: I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
Article II: I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
Article III: If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Article IV: If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
Article V: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service, number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
Article VI: I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
After doing just a little searching
the only thing I'm prepared to say is that it seems to be more than a little complicated. We would all like to assume that no USM would kill unarmed enemies or civilians but it seems that there are aspects of the story given by the PL that don't agree with reality. The lesson learned is that assumptions are dangerous.
so Thomas is a expert on
so Thomas is a expert on killing because he's watched a few videos on Youtube. i guess that makes me an expert on Vietnam because i've watched Full Metal Jacket and Platoon a few times. Thomas feels he's allowed to pass judgment on a bunch of men who live with the thought that at any moment they could be blown apart because he watches Youtube videos.
i don't even feel like i'm allowed to pass judgment on those men and i spent a year in Baghdad. out of the original 15 men in my platoon 5 were killed during that year, one 19 year old came home with no arms and 12 Purple Hearts were awarded. with all that said by no means does this put me in a position to judge those men. a video on Youtube doesn't present all the facts.
the truth is that unless you spend time in combat you need to keep your mouth shut. you have no idea the tricks it plays on your mind. a lot of those "men" are just kids who've been thrown into a no win situation. and while i don't condone the killing of "innocent" civilians. just because they are unarmed doesn't automatically mean they're innocent.
Big Naughty, In My Opinion You Could Possibly Wrench Your....
head out of your ass and maybe wonder why the military brass has been confiscating cameras and not allowing soldiers to post on youtube,liveleak ect?????? Can you guess why????? Because it was making them look like the butchers that some of them are and giving the military a very bad name.
i can tell you never served.
i can tell you never served. because if you did you'd realize that the "military brass" loves prosecuting soldiers. there's nothing they like more. the entire time you spend in the military is nothing but one punishment after another. i'm surprised they didn't issue us cameras in hopes of raising the chances of catching us doing something worthy of prosecuting.
i guarantee you'd have a different opinion if you spent a year on the ground in Iraq. then you'd see how what's wrong here is right there.
it ain't COD4 buddy. a little icon doesn't pop up above the enemy when you point your weapon at them. and they sure as hell don't wear orange jumpsuits that say insurgent on the back.
i knew within months of being there i realized that those people weren't my enemy. that they were only defending their homeland from the invaders. but that didn't keep me from defending myself. and yeah i probably shot at some unarmed civilians. but when you're in Baghdad and people are blowing themselves up all around you time isn't always on your side to make the best judgment. you have to do what it takes to get home. if you ever end up in combat you'll figure out real quick that the American flag, apple pie and Mary Jane Rottencrotch don't matter more than just surviving. and you have to be willing to do whatever it takes to do just that.
no hard feelings Thomas, but you touched on a subject that gets me fired up. Iraq is something you have to experience to understand
Big Naughty, You Are Right I Never Served And I Missed The....
Vietnam "conflict" by 2 years. But that does still not change the fact that there are some real loose cannons over there getting away with unjustifiable murder and rape of innocent people.And they are not completely isolated incidents. Thats what pisses me off.If I ever were in your situation I would not "do whatever it takes to survive" because that encompasses very broad concepts which many would fall into the realm of personal moral unacceptability. Therein lies the problem as many of these "kids" are severely lacking moral judgment. I am sorry I fired you up and that you lost the friends you had over there but glad you survived to fight in the real revolution................Thomas
there is another way to understand
Losing a family member there makes you take a hard look at reality, too. My entire point was this: If Bush and Cheney are not to be held responsible, there is no military code, code of honor or high moral ground to be stood upon by prosecuting the brave men and women who signed up to serve our nation. It is not blood on their hands when they are used, abused, duped and drugged by officers who do, as indicated, delight in running sacrifical lambs before the masses to appease the bloodlust at home. Filling our gas tanks with soldier blood just isn't enough, we want to hold them personally liable for Bush and Cheney's war.
Thank you for your service, soldier. I posted this thinking I would print off all the supportive comments to take to my neighbor who is about to ship out. I guess that plan did not work out so well.
The answers for what is right or wrong in a war may be found in
The Rights of War and Peace; Including the Law of Nature and Nations by Hugo Grotius; (1625). Understand that if our soldiers violate military regulations, rules, laws etc. it is tried in a case by case basis in a military court. This book will give you a broad understanding of the foundational law used in military tribunals today. It was oft quoted by our once Supreme Court in the 19th century including the assertion that in the event of tyrannical rule it is quite proper to kill the usurper. Hopefully Dr. Paul will be in office before it comes to that.
did you read the article?
It seems more than reasonably doubtful that these men committed any crime.
Yes, I read the article.
I don't have firsthand evidence of the facts as I wasn't there watching the battle in Iraq. Anything I would speculate on would be hearsay. I only wanted to give you some background of the foundational basis for Laws of War. It's my understanding that these soldiers were exonerated at their court martial but the Pentagon wanted to give the press some sacrificial lambs and retried them.
All public servants and military personel are required to subscribe to an oath or affirmation of office to uphold the Constitution. However very few of them ever read it let alone abide by it. Article I, Section 8, Clause 10; "Offences against the Law of Nations" was added to assert that the very basic foundational principles of all societies would be recognized and respected by the United States of America. Without this clause the U.S. would be regarded as a de facto nation and subject to attack and conquest without cause or a declaration of war.
Not Me I Will Not Support This.......................
after viewing quite a few videos of actual war footage from Iraq. Footage taken by soldiers themselves that clearly show them murdering unarmed civilians in droves and then laughing, tittering, hooting and hollering with glee....What a bunch of unprofessional murdering psychopaths this society/military has created. Men (if you can call them that) that are completely unfit to serve.Nah let their "brothers fund their defense.And yes I have seen footage of "good kills" where the servicemen acted with complete professionalism and didn't jump around and shoot a wad in their pants over it.
Even though this is an undeclared war, I hope the unprofessional ones mentioned above don't make it back....................
Go
Thomas, go read the book "On Killing" then afterwards come back here and talk for a bit.
You have absolutely no idea what goes on in order to create a person capable of doing what you're watching.
I don't have time to thoroughly thrash your argument that as the basement chair general you're able to judge those men.
How much time in the military do you have again? How much of this have you made a study?
Keep your judgments to what sort of food you're going to buy at the market, you're obviously unsuited for anything heavier.
Eric Hoffer
Military commission act gives
Immunity to all top official for war crime, but they can still blame it on soldiers as scapegoat. google taxi to the darkside(2008 academy winner documentary - trailer). hopefully this film will wake up a lots of people to take action.
I Personally Don't Wish To Touch This -- Why?
Vote RON PAUL 2008
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I remember hearing all that stuff in the news a few months back. Not an isolated case (recalling another example of where a US military guard encouraged prisoners to try and escape and when they did try -- they were shot and killed) // of course this matter you bring up is not the same thing BUT far worse charges if any of it is to be believed.
How do any of us know what is true and not true? I sure in the hell don't, and for that reason alone I don't wish to jump in to something that I find horrific to the max. Perhaps they are innocent -- I truly hope they are, for their own sake -- but if guilty as charged, well, that's another matter entirely.
Courts-Martial is a legal proceeding. And in this case (because of the severe charges -- murder of innocent women and children) the type of Courts-Martial would be a General Courts-Martial equating to a trial by jury with witnesses and prosecution, etc., etc. And as far as legal cost -- Hey, the military must appoint a legal defense team if a civilian legal defense team can't be paid for out of the pockets of the accused. They still have trained lawyers defending them, regardless, the only difference is they are wearing military uniforms. This is certainly not a vigalante court system, I know that for sure because I served 26 years in the military service and actually served for many months as a voting member of a General Courts-Martial myself.
And because of the visibility of this matter, some hot-shot civilian lawyer may very well be willing to assist w/o $$. That's up to others to decide.
If you know more about this -- all the more power to you. But me, I trust the military service (yes, I still do). I sure in the hell don't trust the senior leadership that sent our brave fighting forces to an unjust war, but I trust the folks that would make up this particular court system. I trust them because they are regular folks much like a civilian jury might be.
My $.02
This has been going on for a while
This "war" in Iraq is not really a war.
In a DECLARED war the boys and girls have license to kill.
This is a police state or invasion force - it's not a war. So, there are parameters for engagement. I have read the offical rules on Wikileaks [http://88.80.13.160/wiki/wikileaks]
This is why the US government can charge our military personnel for "crimes." Ironic though - because the BIGGEST criminal is actually the US gov. They are just passing the buck down....... shameful.
A couple things
I don't know what's worse the fact that this continues, or that there aren't some of the nation's best lawyers doing this case pro-bono