Weekend watching: Taxi to the Dark Side
Posted March 7th, 2008 by freedom1776
This is the Oscar winning documentary about an innocent Afghan taxi driver who was beaten to death by American soldiers while being held in extrajudicial detention at the Bagram Air Base. The film examines America's policy on torture and interrogation in general.
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The more I see things like
The more I see things like this posted on here, prisonplanet, and LRC, the less interested I become in being associated with the movement. As a military veteran and someone who has had a lot of friends die over there, I see all this as just something that happens whenever you go to war. The problem is the policy as a whole and that is what should be focused on. A taxi driver gets killed in a war zone, and you think that actually matters? Guess what? Another taxi driver got killed today, and another will die tomorrow. 15 of our soldiers have died in the last month. A few hundred Iraqis died this week.
Instead of focusing on the big picture, we focus on puppies and possibly innocent taxi drivers.... the whole war/occupation is the problem.
When you are deployed, and your friends are getting killed, you tend to not take chances with someone who is brought in as a suspect. If the afghans are bringing people in saying they are killing US troops, then it is your job to find out what they know. Soldiers can't just release every guy that comes in saying "I'm a taxi driver" because then they'd all come in and say that and leave.
All these Michael Mooresque propaganda movies play the emotions of people who have never actually been to war. These wars aren't us against the bad guys. They are us against a guy that is a taxi driver and part time bomb maker. A sheephearder who likes to shoot soldiers on the weekends. There is no way to tell one from the other.
I'd be willing to bet money that these prisoners get treated way better than any paramilitary fighters in any previous war. Thats just what war is. People die, people make mistakes and the stakes are life and death in war. It sucks and most of you will never understand it but that is what it is. The difference is that now, through the internet, everyone gets to see it.
The only way to prevent it is to not run all over the planet occupying countries and starting wars.
"The only way to prevent it
"The only way to prevent it is to not run all over the planet occupying countries and starting wars."
You don't think videos like these can help initiate and mobilize an anti-war mentality?
To all of those who promise despair at the lord's hands to certain people in the next world, I wouldn't be shocked to see divine judgment bite you right in the ass...
'give the opportunity for a politician to live beyond his means and you'll have him dancing"
"You don't think videos like
"You don't think videos like these can help initiate and mobilize an anti-war mentality? "
Good point. But I also believe that it is important that the blame for acts like these are placed on ALL of the right people. As said earlier in posts, to place total blame on the soldiers is not correct. It is also important that we put videos like this into context as to draw the proper knowledge and wisdom from the information presented.
"To all of those who promise despair at the lord's hands to certain people in the next world, I wouldn't be shocked to see divine judgment bite you right in the ass..."
Good Point as well..Wasn't it Jesus who said.....":Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." ?? Understanding and reason, not fingerpointing, are our best policies. Especially in the case of the soldiers.
Well said indeed....
Well said indeed.... you aint the only who has been getting discouraged lately. It seems that the very people that come to Daily Paul and preach open mindedness and a voice of reason, fail to practice that reason when they come into contact with video or propaganda like this that plays on their emotions.
Not to say that there is not much to learn from this video, but one should also use reason and be objective when watching it. We must understand all sides of the story.
Indeed, many factors come into play in war, and no one can understand it unless they've lived it. As a soldier myself, I can say war is horrible and horrible things happen in war. It is our job as Freedom lovers to try and stop endless wars and understand the horrors of war so they don't happen again. We need to be the voices of reason in a sea of emotion.
I understand you completely.Please stay with the movement though. I believe we need people who understand and speak to reason, rather than emotion. And I'm right there with you bro....
God's goodness leads to repentence
God didn't blow up the troops, nor is he too blame for Iraq war.
No, the blame is to be laid at the feet of our wicked leaders who want to be God. In essence man has brought this plight on himself.
Were "cursed" because of our evil leaders that we keep electing from both sides of the political aisle.
You know doing something over and over expecting a different result is insanity. We bring it upon ourselves.
God cannot bless us because we don't have godly leaders who respect the law of the land. He wants to bless us though.
In fact Ron Paul IMO was "god sent", yet even Christians rejected him.
Ha You are insane.
Ha
You are insane.
RE: Ron Paul "god sent"
"In fact Ron Paul IMO was "god sent", yet even Christians rejected him."
I agree. And we all saw how most everyone [labeled christian and otherwise] did their best to spit in the face of RP and all of us who supported him respectfully.
What a shame.
Bush killed them >>
http://www.signmovies.net...
God Blew Up the Troops
God Blew Up the Troops
http://www.signmovies.net...
So Horrible
These people will face the Lord, PERIOD!
God Bless America....
I thought the documentary was great, as it says a lot about policies of the administration and to the horrors of war. Indeed, some of our warriors have done horrible things and they will forever have to live with that. However a majority of American fighting men and women have served honorably around the world and will continue to. Some have even given the their lives performing the duties that their government has asked them to do. Millions of Iraqis have also been killed in such a tragic circumstance.
If you don't like the war, or any war, I suggest that you try to make a change by caimpaigning for politicians who will follow the Constitution and end the war and correct foreign policy. As American citizens, we are equally responsible for the actions of our government and we will all have blood on our hands,especially if we make no effort to push for change. Sadly,THX suggest we spit on these brave ones (my brothers and sisters) dead bodies:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
THX can say what he wants about the troops, I can somewhat and in someways understand where he is coming from. However, he has no style and his ignorance and hatred for America shines through. THX seems to correlate his hate for our form the current administration into hate for our troops. Perhaps he should read a little history. After all, without honorable soldiers and citizens who have defended his liberty in the past, THX wouldn't be able to come on this forum and say anything. The key is to let the troops fufill their oaths and defend the Constitution of the United States. Peace through Strength and Strength through Peace.
God defends liberty
http://www.signmovies.net...
God Bless America?
More things to be proud of from the Homeland Boys
http://www.prisonplanet.c...
Ever Heard of Original Sin?
It's original sin that makes men (I include women in"men") capable of unspeakable crimes. Following God's law correctly protects us from bad decisions. The "I'm okay, your okay, what's true for you isn't necessarily true for me" mentality can never bring peace and order to our fractured world.
We live in a society that trivalizes God and true religion by allowing any lie the same privilege as the Truth. The result is evil and chaos and, of course, all religions are demonized as a result..
Original sin darkened our intellects. (I'm sure you've heard how humans only use a small percentage of their brains ... that's because the greater part of our reasoning power was lost witht he fall of Adam). Our other tendencies include selfishness, and laziness. It's just easier for us to do bad. And we can justify our bad behavior till the cows come home.
That said, our only protection against doing evil is to follow God's law ... EVEN WHEN IT MEANS WE WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF MORE POWERFUL MEN FOR DOING SO.
Of course, you actually need to know what God commands of you. If you sincerely search for the Truth, you'll find it! It's the Truth that sets you free, not the US Constitution.
Ethical Wisdom
Do you need to be threatened with eternal damnation in order to prevent yourself from killing someone who cut you off in traffic? What prevents slaughter during the morning commute by the 85% of Swedes who reject religion? Or do you think it's just possible that most humans are born with some sense of empathy and intuition for social relations?
What is wrong with selfish tendencies? Is it selfish for me to want to keep what I have worked for? Is it selfish to steal what someone else has worked for so that I can be happy? Is it selfish for you to order me to relinquish what I have worked for so that others can be happy?
What is wrong with lazy tendencies? If someone wants to lie on the beach until they die, what does that have to do with me? Who am I to say that this is a waste of a life, if it's not mine to waste?
To your broader point, I offer this from Sam Harris:
"If a person doesn’t already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won’t discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran — as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.
We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn’t make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery — and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture — like the golden rule — can be valued for its ethical wisdom without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe."
Actually, the fear of hell
Actually, the fear of hell does prevent a lot of evil ... unfortunately, not nearly enough. Imagine a world where the bankers and Dick Cheny worried about burning in hellfire for eternity. Things would be different, I'm sure.
My original point about Original Sin is that anyone is capable of doing evil except a true saint ... one who has the will to DIE rather than capitulate to evil. There are a thousand Catholic saints who've done this. Unfortunately, there are probably a million others who almost, but didn't quite make it. Many a saint was first a dirtbag. But the grace of God helped him overcome natural fears and tendencies. Because of their sacrifices, saints live on in history. The cowards' names we tend to forget.
Frankly, Sam Harris may sound good to those who are ignorant of history, but what he says it flowery BS. The fact is we have not made any moral progress at all! The 20th century was the bloodiest, meanest, most devastating century in the history of mankind. It can boast two world wars, numerous genocides, and countless smaller wars, not to mention communism and nazism. Hundreds of millions of people died. Tens of millions lived out lives of desperation in gulags and prison camps and hundreds of millions of babies died by abortion. The rest of us are slaves of the international bankers and who even knows what we're going to experience in the next few years.
These are the true DARK AGES! Time to wake up!
Fundamental Attribution Error
I have actual done much studying in the area of original sin, and I would say my favorite book on that subject and the subject of religion is "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. In it he discusses much of what you said.
However, I tend to believe more in the power of the situation. People with ethical and divine wisdom may be less likely to carry out horrible acts, but even those who have had so called "ethical wisdom" or "strength through faith," still are capable of horrible things. For instance...Catholic priest have done some pretty horrible things. (BTW I am catholic) Or many groups have done some pretty bad things to others in the name of religion. Good people of all countries, cultures, and backgrounds are often able to kill and die for their beliefs.
The question is, do people do bad things to eachother do this because the deranged, lacking morals and intelligence, or are somehow inadequate human beings(dispositional forces). Or is there some other reasons that can cause people to do horrible things, such as life events,public opinion, cultural attitudes, needs and wants to conform (situational forces).
Interestingly, as seen by Psychologists Stanley Milgram, we often attribute others less than desirable acts to their disposition. While we attribute our less than desirable acts to the situation. This is known as the Fundemental Attribution Error.
The reality is that the situation is extremely powerful. (Check out Philip Zimbardo) As humans, we have a need to conform. We care about public opinion, and unfamiliar life events can make us adapt and do things we may have never done otherwise.
Also, we are role based creatures. We take on roles , (father, mother, employee, policeman, firefighter etc...) and we embody these roles in life situations. Think about it! Roles help to increase the power of the situation. Roles empower people. They give people purpose, and sometimes can lead them to do things they otherwise may not do.
Having all of these things combined, situation, role, conformity, public opinion etc. Some can more easily be swayed to do things they may otherwise not do. This is especially true for those who are put in unfamiliar situation, where societal and cultural norms may be in conflict or do not apply. In these situations, people adapt and that isn't always pretty.
To explain, lets go back to Catholic priest. The Catholic Church has had a lot of horrible sexual abuse and pedophilia in its history. Could this be because of priests disposition. Are they inadequate cognitivley, or are they deranged. Possibly. .....
Or could it be because priest, who are to remain celibus for life and out of touch with their sexualities, are totally unfamiliar, and lack experience with natural human sexual urges and desires. Or maybe the fact that Catholic leadership swept many things under the rug, and made acts "acceptable." With this unfamiliarity and situational forces, they do not know how to cope with their desires.Perhaps this is what has caused seemingly good people, Catholic priest, to perform the most horrible acts on others.
My two cents....
The key is to try to be aware of and understand this "power of situation." Most people are not "dispostionally evil" but rather "evil by situation."
Much of what you say is true!
Most people don't set out to do evil, they just fall into situations where doing evil is the easy way out of a bad situation..
For 2,000 years, the Catholic Church has been crystal clear about how we judge ... we do not know people's motives so we can't usually tell whether they are "dispositionally evil" or "evil by situation." Only God can judge motives. We, however, can and must judge actions. Torture, murder, unnecessary cruelty are judgeable actions. Circumstances can mitigate guilt even to the point of exonerating the doer of a bad deed..
That said, a saint would rise to the situation, stand his ground and refuse to cooperate in evil, while those who have so wacky a moral compass that they can't figure out right from wrong still deserve some blame. It was their own willful or slothful ignorance that caused their fall.
Most people these days think they're pretty good ... definitely going to heaven (default mode). Nothing could be further from the truth. Each person must work hard to attain heaven. It's hell that's easy.
Thanks For the reply. I
Thanks For the reply. I understand what you are saying... and I think we are on about the same page of understanding. I just tend to look at things in less of a religious sense. Although if you so choose to talk in relgious terms, I will listen. Eitherway, I think both of us understand that situational forces have great pull on our actions.
By no means are the actions of those who carry out torture or abuses acceptable. They should be punished here on Earth. However, it is equally important for those who are elected and entrusted by society to enforce American moral and ethical standards, and upholding American Constitutional law also receive their due justice. These people would be those who bring us to war illegally or on false merit, or those who condone torture as a matter of public policy. These are the people who can stop the war today, because they know it was false.
They ,arguably, carry the truest of evil in this matter. They are the masters of the situation. They make the situations where people have to make life and death judgments. They, with the the swipe of their pen, can commit generations to their acts. They do all of this often very carelessly, and with little remorse, and easily within the comfort and sactuary of American soil.
Furthermore,I believe that few of us have the moral fortitude of a saint. Many of us would unfortunately resort to our animalistic natures if had the chance. Mainly because ,as you said, it's easy and its natural and original. That is very unfortunate, and I would agree that it is a result of societal attitudes because our animalistic nature is often what modern soceity seems to accept.
As for the soldiers, as you said, only God knows true motivation. So it is for us to be slow to judgement unless we are free of sin ourself. I do pray for them. It is easy to say "How could they do such a thing?" without knowing all the facts. But that would ,at the same time, speak against the reason that we have all come to the Ron Paul Revolution in the first place. It is our duty as Americans and as human beings to try and understand.
Thanks Again for intelligent conversation.
ANSWER: From the Wisest Man to Ever Live...
Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Don't assume that soldiers
Don't assume that all soldiers are dispositionally evil or what not. Understand the power of situation! When people are subjected to situations that they have never experienced before and have no familiarity too, they are capable of performing acts that they never thought they ever could. It IS human nature! You are capable of it, I am capable of it, and if you don't think it's true, than beware of your own ignorance. Humans take on the roles they are given, you do it everyday as a parent, as a employee and so on. Imagine if there were no standards of conduct set up. What would you be capable of doing??
For instance, look at the actions of many people in New Orleans after Katrina. Seemingly law abiding people go nuts when there is no law or standard of conduct! Even cops go sour in certain situations. Point: anybody is capable of doing bad things!
When soldiers are made to the role of prison guards of "horrible killers and terrorist", and they receive little guidance in this situation that they have no familiarity with, it is anybodies guess as to what can happen. Especially, for those weak in personal moral fortitude themselves.
I highly encourage everyone who reads this to read "The Lucifer Effect" by Psychologist Philip Zimbardo, who did the famous Prisoner Experiment in the 60's and has today analyzed the events Abu Ghraib. Good people can do evil things, all it takes is the right or wrong situation.
American leadership is just as accountable for these situations as anybody else, for not standing up for the rule of law, not standing with American morals, and for not making policy to reflect moral standards. Perhaps if they'd done this, Abu Ghraib wouldn't have happened.
Thank God for Dead Soldiers
It is films like these that gives people like these the fuel they need to do what they do
http://www.signmovies.net...
I can't believe this is on
I can't believe this is on DP. It is sickening and disheartening that you would post anything that would imply dead American soldiers is a GOOD thing. You are clueless
What about Our Soldiers?
I do not weep for our men and women in uniform. They are not protecting us! They are endangering us! They are worse than our enemies. They are the ruling elites' tools to kill us all. Here on out, if they die I shall not weep, but be thankful they are getting picked off abroad and not here to harrass us. Anyone who joins the US military today knowingly acknowledges these practices and procedures or are too stupid to see the errors of their ways and for them I have no pity nor regard for their "service". I'm outraged! We have the miltary knowingly training gang members who will one day return here and create havoc for our law enforcement who of late aren't much better than our thugs in uniform who haven't the sense to say "NO to the brass!
I just finished watching Iraq War Crimes and I'm sick! I see why people spat on our soldiers coming back from Vietnam. That was being kind. This US military is not what the founders had envisioned by any means. Today's miltiary is the tool of evil men bent on destroying and enslaving us for their own puropses. I say fuck 'em all and leave them in the sands to starve.
You are entitlled to your
You are entitlled to your own opinion but with all do respect you sir can suck my left ****!
Until you can put a uniform on and know what it is like to be shot at or have to pull a trigger, you have no room to talk. If you want to take your rage out on somebody, take it out on those who devise policies of hate, isolation, and disregard for human life. Soldiers are often just pawns in the game. War brings the worst of mankind to the fore front, and no man or woman who serves is completely immune to any of that, but to blame any atrocity soley on all the soldiers is disgusting. Especially, for the majority who serve with honor. How about those who exploit the men and women in uniform, why not talk about them? Your ignorance sickens me!
I served because I believe in what America was and one day can be, and most of us serve with honor and dignity. Look at all of the veterans who have joined the Revolution,because they BELIEVE! True warriors pray and hope for peace. Or at least I know I do.
Feel free to try and spit on me or any of my joes, buddy! See what happens....
How to make new enemies
I was fortunate to see this documentary which played locally in Boston a few weeks ago. It elicited outrage from the audience. I know it's not playing in many locations, although I had heard that HBO picked up the rights after Discovery bought a US exclusive distribution arrangement and then refused to air the documentary due to its "controversial" nature.
Does anyone debate the evidence that our presence and our policies are the fuel and the spark for a new generation of highly motivated terrorists? If so, I suggest they watch this film.
Individuals must have the fortitude to continually ask themselves if the system they participate in actually represents and respects the values they believe in. Many members of the military are trained not to make these moral calculations, of course, and this is the end result. Ultimately, however, the genesis of the abuses shown here lie with the same individuals who have acted in the name of moral conviction, patriotism and national security to bankrupt this nation and its legacy in just a few years.
Well worth your time if you want to understand why regions of the world will despise us for generations.
Updated to google version
But you can still rate it on Youtube.
The genie is out of the bottle
From now on America is stained with these incidents not unlike Germany for it crimes against people in WW2.
Damn Bush for going into Iraq and ruining America over the last 7 yrs.
I've seen this. It's horrendous.
It's my belief that the powers behind the curtain instill evil
people into all aspects of society, including the military,
to continue chaos,
and just when all seems lost, the offer order,
at the expense of freedom.