Let's talk about FairTax and Ron Paul
Posted March 23rd, 2008 by RonPaulistheAnswer
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I used to be a FairTaxer until Dr. Paul started running for President and I quickly became a RonPauler. But since Ron Paul is willing to sign the Fair Tax as President if that should happen before his plan to eliminate IRS and income tax, then I remain a FairTaxer, a RonPaulFairTaxer. Always Ron Paul first.
Don't they both face the same enemies? I don't think FairTax grassroots, or HQ realizes this. But it seems to me lobbyists, Fed Res, big government control all want to keep IRS to keep control of the sheeple. It is amazing to me that FairTax is narrow sighted to the extent to hurt their own movement and it seems they would be perfectly happy if Ron Paul's tax plan were implemented over their's. What am I missing? They have a rally on April 12. Seems to me that they would tap into our movement as much as possible?
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Back to Basics
Let's return to our roots, people. All these competing tax plans do only one thing, they shift the tax burden from one to another. My grandmother put it best with the old saying: "Don't tax me! Don't tax me! Tax the man behind that tree".
If we do nothing to return this government to the bounds placed upon it by the Constitution, then all we will have is the advocacy of plans designed to hit "the other guy" harder, or to "spread the burden", when the problem lies not with the tax system itself, but rather the spending that our Congress does on programs and schemes not authorized by the same Constitution that they all swear to protect and defend.
First, rein in spending. Second, pay of the national debt. Third, deal with the method of taxation.
Anyone who thinks that Congress will capitulate at the drop of a hat and suddenly do what is right is living in fantasyland. It will take the efforts of millions of us who seek the same goal: Less government and more individual responsibility. Without concerted effort toward that goal in every congressional district we will simply get more of what we have been getting.
Problem with the fair tax
is that it is regressive. If you are making $30k /year and spend 80% of your money on day-to-day, saving and investing 20%, you are not going to be happy when a 30% across the board sales tax is enacted. If you are making $200k /year, and spend 10% of your money, on day-to-day, you will not worry.
Secondly, a fair tax will create a massive underground economy of people who conduct cash and barter transactions without receipts.
Thirdly, a fair tax is unconstitutional. The federal government has no right to levy a tax on a transaction which occurs within state borders. It can institute excise taxes on goods, for example, gas or cigarettes (as long as they travel across state borders), but even so, it can only charge once per good. Which is why you can either have a "sales tax" or a "use tax", but not both.
We don't need a fair tax. What we need to do is move all companies to S-type corporations (so they are only taxed if they make profit). And then, only tax corporations which participate in interstate commerce or have a presence in more than one state.
Addressing
regressive-the rebate helps in this area because everyone receives an amount each month equal to what they would pay spending up to the poverty level. Also no one is required to purchase new. Anyone in the lower brackets would choose when they are being taxed by what they purchase.
underground economy-well it would not be nearly as corrupt as our system is now and it would be easily understood. So what we have now is times worse than that possibility.
unconstitutional-yes we know, so is our system now.
corporations would not pay income tax either. That would be much better than leaving it the way it is a moving to s-type corporations who still have to collect payroll taxes for their employees, jump through hoops to comply with a run-away code, etc., etc.,
Your arguments do not hold up compared with what we have. And any time anyone says the word "receipts" when referring to FairTax, you immediately know they have not directly researched the subject. They are getting their information hand-me-down, which is no good. No good at all.
If we had no IRS
then why would s-type corporations have to collect payroll taxes? They wouldn't.
And purchase new? The FAIR tax taxes every transaction. New or not; good or service. A plumber goes to fix your drain. Fair tax. You buy shoes off the net. Fair tax. You buy crack from your dealer. Fair tax.
Enemies is too strong. Both tax plans have
competing interests. The fair tax movement offends those who believe that a progressive tax system, one in which the most wealthy pay the most tax, is the preferable system. RP plan is opposed mostly by those who addicted to corp., welfare.
Wow
If I had a prize, you would win!! First person who has addressed the issue at hand. So, H-daddy, who do you think that FairTax people would not jump as a group right behind Dr. Paul immediately. Seems like a natural to me. Are they just way too tied to their own issue to realize that what Dr. Paul proposes is infinitely better?
FairTax also fights the status quo as do we, the big government as do we, the control issue as do we.
But FairTax is so much better than what we have now in so many ways. Many would have to find new more productive jobs of course, as they would with Ron Paul. But that would be an extremely positive thing in the not too long run.
I really don't think there is strong connection
between supporters of fair tax and RP plan. Could they be convinced? Sure. The starting point is that both groups are dissatisfied with the present system. What Fair Taxers always gloss over is the enormous bueracracy needed to collect their tax. And, of course, it relies on some sort of odd rebate to "protect" the poor.
The common theme that should unite all sensible people is that the size of government, based on the "nanny state" mentality, is what causes our high rate of taxation.
When people are asked questions about taxation they always say the taxes are too high, but, more importantly, what really upsets them is what the money is spent on. I remember a national survey, done many years ago, for which people could decide how their tax dollars would be spent. The results were SHOCKING. Based on the results the military and police would be running on fumes. Helping people who needed assistance came out #1.
I don't really mind the present system. What we need to do is lower federal expenses until a 50% tax on incomes over 1 million will foot the bill. (I think 5% of taxpayers pay 80% of income tax.) I'm with Dr. Paul on eliminating corporate income taxes.
Fair taxers want a change and I admire them for that. But a tax on consumption compared to no tax at all seems like a easy decision to make.
It would seem a natural
It would seem a natural choice for the fairtaxers to back Paul right? Well what does it mean if they do not?
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavinly glory." - Bruce Lee
No such thing as a "FAIR Tax"
NO tax is what we want... NEED, if this country is going to survive!!!
I believe the "fair tax" origin was something involving the Church of Scientology, when they were trying to obtain their tax exempt status.
Churches these days have forgotten they are not under Fed. jurisdiction until they are "recognized" and get the exempt status they didn't need to apply for to begin with!!!! That's another can of worms for another time..
Read for yourself just how "fair" this treasoness tax is, go to the site of the Idaho Observer and read the two part article by Vicky Davis titled
"Fair Warning on the Fair Tax" There is a search mode at the top of the page, type in fair tax if you are sincerely seeking info on this BS tax. It's much worse than what we are already stuck with!!!
www.proliberty.com/observ...
Still think it's fair? Any comments?? ???
oh, my gosh.
That is so crazy. It had nothing to do with scientology. Just one of its supporters was a scientologist and everyone jumped on it to discredit FairTax. Funny. So misinformed and it sticks and sticks and sticks. That was ages ago. Everyone here at Ron Paul should know how to be more level headed than that.
Instead of sending the people to some gosh awful opinion article why don't you let them think for themselves and send them to www.fairtax.org so they can learn the truth. FairTax was created by three men in Texas who got together year after year and complained about the tax system until they decided to put up a million each to investigate the best method for the people. But there are many who work for the government who try to keep the movement from going forward.
Oh, my gosh.....
It is apparent you have an agenda. This is NOT an opinion article. There are plenty of "facts" and Quotes from people who are involved with this SCHEME and you choose to remain blind to the actual facts.
If you don't trust this article, maybe you aren't familiar with Vicky Davis. I do not believe you even took the time to READ the article. Maybe you have heard of Devvy Kidd at news with views. She has done extensive research on the taxes issue. She has been a witness for the we the peoples demand for redress, speaking quite eloquently I might add. And I'm realitively certain she has had nothing good to say about your pet project "Fair Tax".
HR25 Fair Tax Act of 2005 lead sponsor Richard Linder (R-GA). Touted by Tom Delay in Houston. There is a lot of money going into sucking folks like you into this. The "sound bites" are lovely.
Eliminate the Irs...Repeal the 16th.....kepp 100% of you income....state tax stays intact... ends coorperate tax hidden in retail costs....Costs for SS & Medicare will be met....you will get a "prebate check" to insure all necessities of life remain "tax free"................
All to be replaced with a 23% "inclusive" consuption tax (sales tax). If you read the article it will actually be more like 30%+. All I'm asking, is that you read this article instead of falling for all the "good point" that are always made up front. What they are not disclosing is the things that get us into trouble with bills like this!! Let's not be foolen again!!!!!
I also believe people have the right to make up their own minds. I also believe before coming to any decisions they should have fair access to ANY information reguarding the issue at hand (HR25). I don't consisder you an authority on this issue.....Sorry... Nor do I claim to be. But please don't jump on this bandwagon too quickly. Please settle down and just read the darm article!!
Ron Paul said; fair tax is
Ron Paul said; fair tax is better than the current income tax, but still a bad solution.
The biggest point is; you don´t need either if you have a correct size of government.
yes, but
the point of this forum is that FairTax is having a rally on April 12 and I hope Dr. Paul will speak at it. I wanted us to point out the similarities in our obstacles to get either system into operation. But no Ron Paulers are understanding what I was trying to do. I wanted to send this forum along with my email to the organizers of the FairTax rally to encourage them to get Dr. Paul at their rally. But now I cannot do that because this forum has gone off on so many tangents and no one will take up the question asked.
Just curious...
Others here have said Paul said, " the fair tax is better than what we have now". When or where was this stated, please? I missed it, that's all. :)
FairTAx
FairTax themselves have gone to each candidate and ask which ones will support FairTax if it come to them. Ron Paul said he would. Everyone knows he will work to abolish income tax completely, which is what we prefer. FairTax would just be a step if necessary. But FairTax is having a rally and I think it would be a great place for Dr. Paul to speak and it also seems that most FairTaxers would support Dr. Paul if they knew what they were truly doing.
He's been asked this several
He's been asked this several times by MSM and you know how they are. They rarely let RP even finish a sentence.
The question being, "would you support the Fair tax" or would you support a flat tax". His reply is usually something like, "...eh yeah...well i would but i prefer a flat tax that's real flat, like zero". That's about as close as i can get to a authentic quote without it being an authentic quote.
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavinly glory." - Bruce Lee
Thats why I asked....
I heard what you heard " I'd prefer a flat tax...flat...like zero" I have a hard time believing he would support this Fair Tax judging by what I have read about it...
There is more to this HR25 than what they are showing on it's surface!!!!
Don't quote me on it...
But I'm thinking that it was from a PBS interview.
CAFR's
There is more than enough money to fund all necessities public and private in this country without taxation and it can be found in all Federal, State and Local CAFR's (Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports). There are 2 sets of books in the GAO one is the Budget which is the record of spending and debt and the other is the CAFR which is the record of revenue, do you see? www.cafr1.com
thanks for the education
I didn't know this.
Does anyone who follows Dr. Paul really know about and support the FairTax???
I think I understand it.
When I first heard about it (pre Huckabee) I went online and researched it. It isn't my first choice. I don't support it. But, Dr. Paul would be wise to go and speak to any gathering of Fair Tax proponents. The commonalities of pupose are very strong.
What I was hoping for
was to get a forum of brilliant posts that I could send to FairTax to establish that they and we have the same enemies and that we should be together. They should be supporting Dr. Paul. But instead, I cannot get any of you even on the subject at hand. You mostly know nothing about FairTax but that doesn't stop you from badmouthing it.
What someone with FairTax said is that many Ron Paul supporters are "mean." I thought when he said that that he is narrow minded and lumping us all together and generalizing. He could not be right. Well, I won't be sending this forum with my email.
Fairness, Equity, or Justice
First of all, there's no tax like no tax, and no tax is obviously best of all.
Next, I'm perfectly willing to concede that a consumption tax (while being an increased burden on some sectors) is generally less destructive of the economy than an income tax, so in that sense, I suppose the "Fair Tax" is preferable to our present system.
Finally, I am not enamored of "Fairness" outside of children's games or casinos -- or do I repeat myself? Fairness is a statistical term referring to even, predictable, or reliable odds. A fair coin has a 50% chance of landing heads up when flipped. A fair die has a one sixth chance of showing an ace when rolled.
If a psychopath picks his victims out of the phone book at random, then that's FAIR. If he kills EVERYONE in the phone book, then that's EQUITABLE. If someone pops HIM, that's JUSTICE.
Given a choice, I'll take a just system over a fair or an equitable one.
Viva Agora!
Professor Bernardo de la Paz
www.citizenduquesne.org
Well that is wonderful
But, I am not trying to discuss the Fairness of FairTax. It is much, much preferrable over what we have now. That is as far as it goes. Otherwise, of course, I do not want it either, but we may have to chip away at this current system.
What I asked and have not been able to get anyone to address is WHY FairTax does not understand that they and we are fighting the same obstacles. We are fighting the same problems and there is much in common for the two movements, which are both grassroots.
"If a psychopath picks his
"If a psychopath picks his victims out of the phone book at random, then that's FAIR. If he kills EVERYONE in the phone book, then that's EQUITABLE. If someone pops HIM, that's JUSTICE.
Given a choice, I'll take a just system over a fair or an equitable one."
Man, this should be your signature.
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavinly glory." - Bruce Lee
signature
perhaps, but it didn't get us anywhere towards answering the question at hand. But your encouragement to this poster is at least a deviation from the norm. What happened to philosophical discussion?
Scroll down a little farther.
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavinly glory." - Bruce Lee
Too long
Thank you kindly for the (inferred) endorsement, but that would be a rather cumbersome signature. Nevertheless, you flatter me.
Aspera ad Astra!
Professor Bernardo de la Paz
www.citizenduquesne.org
You are mistaken.
It seems most of you are still under the mistaken belief that your income taxes pay for anything other than a tiny portion of the deficit racked up in your name by Congress.
The United States is bankrupt. Even if they robbed you of 100% of your income, it would not be enough to cover any significant portion of the debt they rack up each year. Taking your money from you is little more than an exercise in control over the populace.
So how does the government continue to function if they have no money and the loot they rob from us is so insignificant? They still collect taxes from corporations. They still have tariffs and the post office. There are hundreds if not thousands of other little taxes not based on income that they collect on every day and which you are completely oblivious to. But ultimately, they continue to function primarily by borrowing money from foreign countries and printing up the rest.
So go ahead and support the so-called FairTax if you really think it's fair to give your Washington muggers a fee on everything you buy instead of them just having your employer give them a chunk out of your paycheck before you ever see it.
A tax on your labor (income tax) is immoral. You toiled away and busted your ass for that money. Government did nothing to earn it. They don't use it for any of the things you think they do. You are a slave and you are being mugged.
What is your problem?
No one wants FairTax if we can have Dr. Paul's plan as I have said over and over and over. All that you say is not pertinent to this post. Certainly the FairTax is far, far less painful than what we have now. It does not change governmental spending, that is a different issue. But thanks for trying and airing your point of view. You missed my question all together. Also your accusatory, confrontational way of making a point is just simply not necessary.
Government theft and coercion.
I'm sorry if I came off as confrontational. The only accusations I made were directed toward government being a thief, not you, and I meant to come off as matter-of-fact and brutally honest. I think what I said is very pertinent to your post when you claim the FairTax should even be considered. Once again, you're being pulled into the fool's choice of choosing the lesser of two evils. Evil is still evil.
I will agree with you, however, that the FairTax is easier to avoid. Just buy your merchandise off the new black market that will inevitably spring up around it.
Toothpaste, Mister? Get yer untaxed toothpaste, cigarettes, soda pop and televisions right here... anything and everything, all untaxed... get it while it's red hot...
Dr. Paul
Stated that he would support FairTax. It gets rid of the code. It gets rid of IRS. Product prices go down before adding the tax back on and so we pay about the same as now-except we have no more income tax worries. Our companies come back to America, our job market grows, we can grow our food and buy used unless we have the money to do otherwise. There would still be some regulation in preventing the "black market," but I think what we have is more evil and blacker. It would only be a stepping stone to hopefully moving to what Dr. Paul wants to do and we should do.
But the purpose of the post was NOT to argue FOR FairTax. It was to parallel the problems that both face so that I could send this forum, which I cannot do now, to the organizers of the FairTax rally to help them decide to support Dr. Paul, which I think they should have done in the beginning and surely should now.
Forget it. Just in case you
Forget it. Just in case you haven't learned by now....It's all in the name. If it's called the North American Free Trade Agreement, then it's the OPPOSITE of free trade. If it's called the Patriot Act, then it's the OPPOSITE of patriotic. I could go on all night, but you should get the idea: If it's called the Fair Tax, then it's the OPPOSITE of FAIR! RP would never endorse it, and neither should you. Pay attention, do some research, and you'll find out that it's just what we have now under another name.
www.paulforronpaul.com
First of all
For almost every answer to my post, you miss my point. Second, this is not an agency "named" by the government. When they say FairTax, that is what they mean. Ron Paul may or may not endorse it-depends on what you mean by endorse, but are you calling me a liar? Dr. Paul said what I said he said. He would support it under the circumstance of not yet being able to get congress to accept his plan. Pay attention-I think you need to take your own advise. Goodness!!
It doesn't matter what you name the tax
it will end up being used to manipulate who gets to keep their money and how much. Eliminating the Federal Reserve is the first step. If that doesn't happen then we are still being taxed.
Whatever...
Unless spending is addressed it does not matter how we are taxed, the burden will still be far too great on the American people. "Fair Tax", "Flat Tax", "Whatever Tax"!! Reign in spending, pay off the debt, and none of these plans, however noble, will even be necessary.
You know
I don't like the spending, but I don't see why they have to torture us to get their taxes on top of spending us into oblivian. They will not reign in spending until we take taxing away from them. We have to get taxing away from them. As I have said over and over, Ron Paul's method is better by far than FairTax. But you are so, so wrong that it does not matter how we are taxed. It does to matter. This is oppresive, unfair, expensive, scary, we are always waiting for the IRS to call for an audit. We have to keep all these records and you can never have enough. We have to pay to comply. Many people get by without paying through loop holes and cheating. Foreigners do not pay their fair share. Sure, you are right about the spending. But just because they are killing us with spending, does not give them the right to rub us into the ground with the taxation method.
But the point is--isn't FairTax and RonPaul tax facing the exact same enemy. Still no one has been able to address this. Isn't there anyone here who likes FairTax? If not, you guys have been neglecting your reading material.
How
How would the elderly and disabled vets on fixed incomes that already dont pay much taxes be able to make it under the fair tax? It would be impossible to exempt them from it. Please enlighten me.
Well,
first of all there is the monthly rebate on the amount that is considered the poverty level. Then any investments they were able to profit from would not be taxed as they are today. Then anything they bought used would not be taxed. So resales would be desireable, like homes for resale, cars for resale, etc. There would be more jobs, because our outsourced jobs would come back to our shores. There are major companies that have already said they will come back if FairTax is implemented. So basically people would be better off which has a sideways affect on charity and easing difficulties in families. Also they would pay the same approximately for goods that they pay now because hidden tax would be removed from goods and the prices would come down before the tax was placed on the items. Sales tax in the states might very well be removed because states would be paid for collecting the tax.
interesting
What percent tax would this be? How would homes be exempt? Would this be applied to gas? I dont understand how the rebate would work? Wouldnt you have to keep reciepts for everything? I don't see how it would be possible to ever gauge the amount of rebate one would get. You'd have elderly people buying stuff for everyone. I guess it would bring people closer to their grandparents. lol.
Tax would be 23% to be revenue neutral
Homes that are not new would be exempt. Only new items would be taxed. It would apply to gas as far as I know, but I am not certain of this. It is a tax on new items and services, so as far as I know, gas is included. The prebate is on the poverty level. I don't know if it would be state by state or national average. But if the poverty level is $25,000 for one person, then 23% annually divided by 12 and mailed monthly would be sent and multiplied someway by the number of people in the family. You would not have to keep receipts of anything. Why do you think you would have to keep receipts? Oh, you guage the rebate by the nationally known poverty level that is calculated I think monthly by the government. Why would elderly people be buying stuff for everyone? Not sure I follow, but being close to grandparents is always a good thing.
For crying out loud, if I
For crying out loud, if I can't even understand what you wrote here, then how is this thing supposed to be an improvement? By the time they finish implementing it, it will be 40,000 pages long and nobody will understand it.
www.paulforronpaul.com
Debunking the Fair Tax Myth
http://www.dailykos.com/s...
I just put "debunk fairtax" in my google and this is just one example. There are many many more. Even sites debunking the debunkers and so on and so forth.
Well
This calls for a whole fair debate which of course cannot happen with typing. But it is a "grassroots" system that has been extensively studied, tweeked and evaluated. It is extremely wonderful and I would be glad to debate anyone, any where face to face on it. If you go read the bill itself and don't just read the opposition, then you have a better chance of understanding it. Have you noticed how many people are against Ron Paul???
But my point is not whether Fair Tax is good or bad. My point is that Ron Paul supports FairTax and they are having a rally and it would be good for them and for Ron Paul and us for him to speak there and I don't get the feeling they want him to speak and I would like to hear a "FairTaxer," which you obviously are not, explain why in a logical way that FairTax and Ron Paul are not holding hands into the sunset.
Well i know RP is a man of
Well i know RP is a man of principle and while I think he may believe the fair tax is a step in the right direction. The proposal does not hold up to his principles. In his eyes it it's merely the lesser of two evils.
Fair taxers to me seem to be making an attempt at compromise. Holding on to the idea that government needs your money to function isn't winning over the principled no taxers.
Fair tax legislation has been submitted every year in both the house and senate for the last five years. I'm not sure who started it or how, but if you follow the paper trail I think you're going to find that fairtax is just a tool being used to polarize the issue.
Not sure what your last sentence means
But, if you follow the history of FairTax, you will find that three Texas business millionaires always got together as friends to eat and they always complained about tax. So they said, we need to put our money where our mouth is and they donated a million each to start the investigation for the perfect tax. They vetted it out to economists all over the United States everywhere, in colleges, financial houses, etc., and they worked on it until they got it perfect, as nearly as possible. They want to get the control of taxing away from the govenrment. Reducing spending is another issue. It is not a compromise. It is getting IRS off our backs. We won't have to comply with a huge, incomprehensible code.
Spending is an evil, and needs also to be addressed. FairTax is just more likely than what Ron Paul proposes and would pass sooner if the people would get behind it strong and then we could progress.
It just makes sense to me that RonPaul people and FairTax people are fools if they don't realize they are in this together.
It's a jedi mind trick. If
It's a jedi mind trick. If the entire tax issue could boiled down to two opposing ideologies they would be tax or not to tax. What they have done is taxed and let the opposition be mad. Now rather then let the opposition have their way with the swing of political will. They create a false front with the newly emerged opposing ideologies being "tweek-the-code" and "okay fine, tax us but how much?"
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavinly glory." - Bruce Lee
the "fair tax" is just a shell game...
it's no more fair than the tax system currently in place, it just shifts the responsibility of collection to business owners and it changes nothing. Ron Paul knows what the founders knew; that government must be starved or it will consume everything in sight (then likely start eating it's own tail), looking at the current state of affairs they were obviously right. what we need is to reduce the size (and scope) of the government back to constitutional levels, then strip-mining everyones pockets will no longer be necessary...
Oh absolutely
But that is not what I am asking. Dr. Paul realizes that FairTax is a step in the right direction. Why doesn't FairTax realize that Dr. Paul is their very best hope. But you are wrong about FairTax not being any more fair than the tax system currently in place. So wrong about that. You really need to go study it. Businesses have to jump through many, many more hoops now than they would on FairTax. FairTax changes everything. It would repeal the 16th Amendment. It would take taxing away from IRS. We would not have to worry about foreclosure because of income tax evasion. We would not have compliance. We would be in charge of the tax we pay by whether we buy used or new. Used items have no tax on them. If we don't buy the big boats, we don't pay that tax. If we buy a cheap new car, we pay tax on cheaper. If we buy a used car, no tax. Really, it is a great step in the right direction.
I guess it depends on perspective...
I'll admit I'm not that well versed on the specifics (of the fair tax) but from what I understand it would require business owners (small and large) to collect a sales tax and pay that tax to the govt. As a business owner (sole -prop) it hardly seems fair to require me to be a tax collector, it actually seems less fair than the current system... but I do like the idea of shifting the tax burden to those who can better afford it...