Establishment Says the Mc Cain Natural Born Issue Not A Problem, But
Posted March 28th, 2008 by arizona steve
output
This article was sent to me today by newsmax.com. Newsmax is a tool of the establishment and the CFR. You can not believe a word they say. This is an obvious attempt to glass over the issue in order to try and put it to bed. They left out the important fact that he was born off-base in a hospital in a near by town that was not apart of original least agreement with the Country of Panama. There are a number of other issues that they left out as well.
RP is the only one that has the strongest case for "Legal Standing" prior to the GOP convention, in order to take this argument directly to the Supreme Court in order to decide this issue once and for all.
Forget about "sour grapes" and could be bad PR, that's not even an issue.
Bipartisan Team Says McCain Natural Born
Friday, March 28, 2008 7:34 AM Article Font Size
A pair of lawyers - one Republican, one Democrat - have concluded that John McCain's 1936 birth outside the continental United States does not disqualify him to be president.
The likely Republican nominee was born on a U.S. naval base in 1936 in the Panama Canal Zone.
A federal judge in California has been asked to determine whether McCain meets the legal test to hold the nation's highest office. Although McCain has called questions about his eligibility nonsense, his campaign, as it did in his first White House run in 2000, sought a review from legal experts to put the issue to rest.
``Based on the original meaning of the Constitution, the Framers' intentions, and subsequent legal and historical precedent, Senator McCain's birth to parents who were U.S. citizens, serving on a U.S. military base in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936, makes him a 'natural born citizen' within the meaning of the Constitution,'' the review found.
The issue was examined by former Solicitor General Ted Olson, a Republican backing McCain, and Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe, a Democrat backing Barack Obama.
The Constitution requires that only ``natural born'' citizens hold the presidency. But the Founding Fathers did not elaborate on the term, and the meaning of the phrase has long been debated.
A two-page complaint filed March 6 in U.S. District Court in Riverside, Calif., argued that a judge should step in because the constitutional language was not precise, opening questions about McCain's standing. It was filed by Riverside lawyer Andrew Aames, who says he's a registered Republican but previously was a Democrat.
The Panama Canal Zone was a U.S. territory when McCain was born on Aug. 29, 1936. His father was stationed there in the Navy, and his mother was an American citizen.
Missouri Sen. Claire McCaskill, a prominent Obama backer, has introduced legislation that would define a ``natural born citizen'' as anyone born to any U.S. citizen while serving in the active or reserve components of the U.S. armed forces. Obama is a co-sponsor of the bill.
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It doesn't matter though.
It doesn't matter though. It's going to be Obama or Clinton. Everyone knows that. Once the nom is settled the party will align, even if it goes to the convention. The real race is the democratic nomination.
You Are Probably Correct As Of This Moment In Time, But....
You are probably correct as of this moment in time but look to the future not the present. Things are going to change. Negative information may very will be revealed about a particular candidate. By the future I mean six or seven months from now. The way things are going financially, in seven months we could have a stock market or dollar collasp, we could see many bank failures, home forclosures could easily triple, inflation could go through the roof, unemployment could come back strongly, riots could break out in most major cities, food shortages could take place most everywhere, war could break out and a draft could be implimented. A number of major changes can be accepted before the election. Any or a number of these combined will change the way everyone looks at the next election.
Odd that you say that...
because so does Ron Paul...
I think we're in for interesting times!
Very Interesting Times Ahead
Very Interesting Times Ahead.
I don't want to hear the
I don't want to hear the constitution interpreted by lawyers.
I want to hear the constitution interpreted by supreme court justices.
what do they say about it?
Rich in NH
I Agree With You 100%
Please take a couple minutes and goggle Jonathan Turley. This guy is really something and really knows the Constitution. One I found where he even answers Internet questions. Although he says that his plate is full, an opportunity to argue such a case with the eye's of the World on him, I doubt he would turn down the opportunity. Also, note the other many cases against the Government that he has either won or that he recently filed. It seems that he and Dr. paul are in agreement on most everything.
Exactly
I don't care how a lawyer interprets something, to be honest. I'm a layman and can interpret almost anything whatever way I want. Who cares? Let's see what a SC Justice says about it.
Quickest Way To Solve The Problem....
The quickest and cheapest way to solve this issue is to produce a valid birth certificate. They wouldn't have had to pay Ted Olson the huge salvary that you can bet they are paying him, especially when they are supposed to be short of money. So why haven't they produced this legal document, what's stopping them? Maybe, it is because it would become the smoking gun that does indeed show that he was born in a hospital off the base in a foreign country. What other possible explanation would they possibly have for not releasing this document? If push comes to shove and the lower court order forces them to produce this birth certificate after all of the appeals are concluded, what's to stop the same government establishment that fixes elections, continually breaks the Constitution, goes to war without a decaration, provides the public with false economic data, controls the price of gold, silver and the DOW Jones to not falsify such a document to show that he was born someplace else?
um...
I was an administrator for the Democratic party for over 6 years and i am well educated in the nomination process, I left the party to support Dr. Paul so i know what i am talking about.
Our founding fathers set the system up like this to assure that there would not have false or fruadulent support for a candidate thus forcing THE PEOPLE to become involved in the election process and to show actual support for thier candidate.
They wanted to make sure they would protect us from VOTE FRAUD and to make sure that a candidate did not win a beauty contest but instead win an election.
Any candidate and thier supporters can do exactly what we are doing if they chose to do so and i am sure from the reports we have received that Mccain does not have real support or he would have the delegates he needs registered as delegates to vote for him in the up coming convention.
Every state is different and you should be educated on exactly how your delegate process works and you can do this by obtaining a copy of you bylaws in your county and your state if you are told you do not have bylaws obtain a copy of the party rules for your county and state for this is the first step to victory AFTER YOU BECOME A DELEGATE.
If you doubt my post go and research it yourself PLEASE here : http://www.gop.com/images...
PLEASE EVERYONE COPY AND SEND THIS TO THIER EMAIL LIST AND MEETUP HEADS AND ANY OTHER RON PAUL FORUM THERE IS.
If you can be a delegate because it is too late to register you can still help us at the convention.
Use these 2 links and help us win.
http://www.gopconvention....
link 2 : http://msp2008.com/volunt...
I know many of you are new to the election process but don't worry.
I am going to go into some depth of how this all works so read and then read again if you need to.
Did you know that the delegates can actually vote to unbind thier delegates that are bound by state rules? Did you know that delegates can actually overturn and previous vote? Did you know the delegates have control of the entire process?
The MSM is not reporting how to become the nominee in a situation like this so i will tell you to stop getting your info from the MSM.
I know many of you are bummed about Dr. Paul not getting more votes in the states popular vote BUT THAT IS BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE ELECTION SYSTEM WORKS : Let me explain to you the reality of how to become the nominee.
First stop looking at who wins each states popular vote for most of these states the vote by the people is really nothing but a straw poll and have no real bearing on who will become the nominee. The only way this matters is if 1 person receives 1191 delegates that are bound by state rules to be commited to that candidate. So if a candiate like Mccain now has 906 delegates now but he doesn't reach 1191 WHICH HE WILL NOT most of the delegates the state awarded him mean nothing and keep in mind in most of the states most of the people that represent the 906 for Mccain are actually Ron Paul supporters. NOW there is no possible way that anyone in the race can achieve this goal now because of the major split in state wins by the candidates.
Normally Convention Delegates do not matter because the convention is not brokered and we have a clear winner because someone has 1191 delegates. BUT THIS YEAR IS DIFFERENT. This will be a brokered convention there is no way around it. Do you see how the ronpaul campaign strategy will work.
When a candidate wins delegates by winning a primary that does not mean there are actual people that won acting as delegates- these are virtual delegates.
What do I mean by virtual delegates: A virtual delegate is just a number - there are no actual people YET that will go and vote for the candidate who won the particular state at the national convention. We call these people convention delegates
The actual delegates are voted on (in most states) at a statewide delegate caucus after the Primary (which is just a giant preference poll) Who can be delegates? Anyone. In closed Primary states they must be registered Republicans, in Open Primary states they can be Republicans, Democrats, Independents.
View the hard count of actaul pledged delegates here : http://www.thegreenpapers...
And we have lots of delegates.
Out of the 2,380 delegates sent to Minneapolis St. Paul in September-
-463 delegates are bound all the way through the convention some of those 463 are Ron Pauls people.
- 565 delegates will be bound through one ballot. That is, they have to follow the results of the state election on the first ballot. After that, if no candidate has a majority of delegates, they are free to vote as they please and Mccain will not receive over 50% on the first ballot.
- 383 will be bound through two ballots then they are free to vote for whom they wish.
- 318 will be bound through three ballots then they are free to vote for whom they wish.
I am not going to list every state and what the break downs are, just do the math from these numbers or look for yourself here :
http://www.gop.com/Images...
Bottom line is less than 1/2 of the delegates are bound by state party rules. Now do you see how we can win this thing?
So what happens now you ask? You look at the number of delegates that Dr. Paul has that are uncommited to the other candidates and will support him. these delegates are not decided by the popular vote ie: straw poll of the people. Since no one will have enough delegates to skate them through to the nomination we now must look at how many delegates NOT VOTES but delegates Dr. Paul has that are 100% uncommited to the other candidates and will be 100% for Dr. Paul and are free to vote for whom they wish.
This race will go all the way to the convention for there is no other way for someone to receive the nomintaion untill the convention.
The RNC will convene its annual Winter Meeting - and voters will continue to cast their ballots in the nation's primaries and caucuses. Candidates for delegate and alternate delegate to the convention will be elected - and thousands of convention participants and guests will begin planning their trips to Minneapolis-Saint Paul The first week in September 2008
SO WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN?
This means that all of the people that registered to become a deligate for Dr. Paul can go to the convention and cast thier vote for Dr. Paul, now think about what i just said : Do you think for one second that all the people that voted for Dr. Paul and filed to become a deligate will not show up at the convention to vote for the good Doctor? Of course they will just like they battled the rain and the sleet and the 15 below zero winter weather to knock on doors and wave signs spreading our message.
Now i assure you that even though we didn't win the popular vote in many states WE DID PICK UP THE MAJORITY OF DELEGATES THAN ALL THE OTHER CANDIDATES IN MOST EVERY STATE EXCEPT A FEW. So yes they won the straw poll and we won what counts which is delegates.
Doesn't Dr. Paul need to WIN 5 states to be on the ballot at the convention for the nomination?
NO THIS IS NOT TRUE for people were just confused on how it actually works.
We only need the majority of delegates from 5 states to be put on the ballot NOT THE POPULAR VOTE OF 5 STATES and i assure you we have picked up the majority of uncommitted delegates for Dr. Paul in more than 5 states.
Do any of you remember seeing posts by myself and many others that said BECOME A DELEGATE? There is still time in most states to become a delegate for the convention and we are picking up more of them every day.
So please STOP! you worry too much because you do not understand how the election system works and you thought we lost didn't you? I assure you we have not!
The fact is Dr. Paul is a genius in his strategy and we are further ahead in delegates than you think and we can win the nomination.
I hope this gives a better understanding of how we have been winning even though most of you thought we were not.
NOW LET'S KEEP WORKING FILE TODAY AND BECOME A DELEGATE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!
Info on how to become a delegate here :
http://www3.webng.com/ron...
Dr. Steve Parent
--
Remember: Debt is a form of slavery.
GET THIS SPAM POST OUTTA HERE
Gilgamesh keeps posting SGP's thread everywhere. While it is important and good info, in the context of this thread it's SPAM!
Tha'ts true, man
Not cool - the post is constantly bumped in active topics. People are reading it.
=========================
Live Free or Die - Amen to that
I Sure Agree
I sure agree
Jonathan Turley's Article On The Subject
Sen. Claire McCaskill (D., Mo.) has introduced legislation that would declare that any child born abroad to citizens serving in the United States military to be natural born citizens for the purposes of the constitution. It is a admirable bipartisan effort to resolve any questions about McCain’s eligibility under Article II. However, it is not the first time such legislation has been introduced and it is not clear if it would be sufficient.
There should be universal agreement that the question of McCain’s eligibility for president shows a grossly unfair and unnecessary limitation within Article II. Indeed, we should amend the Constitution to get rid entirely of the ban on naturalized citizens becoming presidents.
However, it is not clear whether legislation can resolve the constitutional question. The fact is that McCain probably has the advantage in any challenge as to his eligibility. He has strong arguments to make. However, this question is not an easy one. If a court takes a strict territorial view of the requirement of being natural born, there is a limit as to how Congress can change the meaning of a constitutional provision through legislation. Such legislative modification could be viewed as circumventing the constitutional amendment process. This is also a close question.
Clearly, Congress could not assert the right to redefine other terms. It could not legislatively define the age 35 requirement to mean 25 by saying that it is the view of Congress that 25 is the new 35. It could not define intra-state matters to be interstate matters by simple legislation to expand federal jurisdiction.
It is of course a good thing that members are seeking a resolution, but they will have to be cautious not to take one course that could fail in the brief window between a general election and the swearing in ceremony — when any challenge is likely to occur.
The requirement that an American be “natural-born” has long been controversial, but few associated John McCain with the problem as opposed to other leaders like Arnold Schwarzenegger. McCain, however, may be a foreign born citizen given his birth in the Canal Zone. Due to the bar on advisory opinions, this issue might not be ripe for review until after the general election, triggering another Bush v. Gore moment in the high court. Ted Olson has even been retained for the possible fight to complete the scene for a Supreme redux.
McCain was born in 1936 in the Panama Canal Zone while his father was stationed there as a naval officer. In 1787, however, the framers insisted that any president be natural born — that is, born within the United States. It is a requirement that some of us have long criticized as counter to our tradition as a nation of immigrants. Click here.
However, absent a constitutional amendment, the question remains whether McCain can claim natural-born status. There has never been a president sworn into office who was not born in one of the fifty states. It would be a very close question that has some interesting implications for current disputes in other areas.
People like GOP Senator Lindsey Graham have rightfully noted how gross it would be to deny such eligibility to someone who was born while his parents were stationed abroad during service to the country. However, no one would debate the inequity but that is entirely irrelevant to the legal question of what constitutes a natural born citizen.
Section 1 of Article II of the Constitution states:
FOR THE REST OF THE ARTICLE GO TO: jonathanturley.org/2008/03/01
Why Did Mc Insane Spend A Large Amount Of $$ to Hirer Olson??
They wouldn't have had to pay Ted Olson the huge salvary that you can bet they are paying him if they would produce Mc Insane's birthcertificate. So why haven't they produced this legal document, whats stopping?? Maybe because it is the smoking gun that does indeed show that he was born in a hospital off the base in a foreign country. What other possible explanation would they have for not releasing this document??
If push comes to shove and the court order forces them to produce this birth certificate, what's to stop the same government establishment that fixes elections, continually breaks the Constitution, goes to war without a decaration, provides false economic data, controls the price of gold, silver and the DOW Jones to not falsify such a document to show that he was born someplace else??
natural born citizen
does not necessarily mean that one must be born in the USA. This is similar to Ron's stance that the child of an undocumented immigrant was not meant to be included in that phrase. I think natural born means he's been a citizen since birth, and did not have to be naturalized later.
"To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world."
BS!
Go read my original post on the subject and see how wrong you are!
Your argument was destyroyed last month.
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Bump
Bump
Jonathan Turley, Constitutional Attorney And Professor
Jonathan Turley
George Washington University Law School
2000 H Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20052
the area in panama was not a US territory, it was land leased by
the US, we paid rent on it every year.
I was about to post
I was about to post something similar. How could the panama canal zone be a territory while at the same time be properly leased from another nation? As far as I knew, the canal zone was always panama's territory and we simply rented/leased it from them temporarily.
It was, by treaty
I covered that in my original post.
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
We Need Constititutional Attorney and Professor Jonathan Turley
We need Constitutional Attorney and Professor is Jonathan Turley out of George Washington Unversity Law School to give us or more importantly Dr Paul, an opinion on this Constitutional issue.
Note, that It appears from the looks of his Internet site he very well may be a Ron Paul supporter already. He is presently filing suit on a number of the same issues the RP is fighting for.
This Is Consititutional Attorney & Professor Jon Turley Address
Jonathan Turley
George Washington University Law School
2000 H Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20052
FWIW, I've always liked Turley
He's one of the few people on TV I can stand -- Napolitano being another. Both of these guys seem more interested in the real nature of whatever they're commenting on than in "spinning" it this or that way (usually, but not always, based on which party is presently dominant in DC).
Yes, somebody give him a jingle.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Get active NOW to put Ron in the general election. ronpaul.meetup.com
I Agree And Suggest That We All Contact Him.
I suggest that we all contact him, especially "Tannim" who I think we all owe credit for his discovering and researching this issue and then presenting the facts to us in such professional manner.
This would be a dream case for any attorney, for it would receive World wide attention. From his interviews on television, Jonathan has always come down on the side of the Consititution and obvious believes deeply in it's importance to this nation.
The following is a brief quotation from a recent TV interview and much more is available on the Internet. Just goggle Jonathan Turly, Attorney.
Constitutional law expert Jonathan Turley discusses the political pressures brought on recently fired US attorneys and it's potential implications on the US justice system.
"In my opinion, the most important (and alarming) part of the story is where the authority to do this derives from: The USA Patriot Act. How exactly does giving Bush the power to replace inconvenient prosecutors protect us from terror? Oh, wait, it doesn't. It just protects him and his cronies from prosecution. Talk about politicizing terror."
Now, doesn't that sound like Doctor Paul??? If I didn't know any better I would think that those words came directly from the good doctor.
Jonathan Turley
George Washington University Law School
2000 H Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20052
I appreciate the compliments
but I don't trust any attorney in DC not named Ayehsa Khan. Nothing personal, but when people generally get inside the Beltway they tend to go crazy and drunk for getting govt power (except for the naturally immune ones like Dr. Paul and those of us smart enough to only be tourists).
Besides, most constitutional attorneys fail to understand the crucial relationship betwen the powers of government and the rights of the people, which is superior to which, and why the Ninth and Tenth Amendments are written the way they are. Those concepts are as crucial to the whole Constitutionas the First and Second Amendments!
There is a simpler way
Get a court order to have McCain release his birth certificate.
If he's a natural-born citizen, then the certificate will say so. If not, it won't.
That Would Be The Quickest Way To Solve This Issue BUT.......
That would be the quickest and cheapest way to solve this issue. They wouldn't have had to pay Ted Olson the huge salvary that you can bet they are paying him. So why haven't they produced this legal document, whats stopping?? Maybe because it is the smoking gun that does indeed show that he was born in a hospital off the base in a foreign country. What other possible explanation would they possibly have for not releasing this document?? If push comes to shove and the court order forces them to produce this birth certificate, what's to stop the same government establishment that fixes elections, continually breaks the Constitution, goes to war without a decaration, provides false economic data, controls the price of gold, silver and the DOW Jones to not falsify such a document to show that he was born someplace else??
The only way to change the Constitution is to properly
amend it. The Constitution states only a "natural born" citizen can become President. The U.S. consisted of the first 13 colonies at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. That was it. So, either you were "natural born" or "naturalized" (born elsewhere) and the only way to change that is by amending the Constitution. Court decisions establishing historical and legal precedent for McCain's status are unConstitutional and unenforceable.
All that is necessary is for people to read the Constitution. It is what is read and does not require a law degree to understand that. It is time for we folks to demand that government, lawyers and the courts support and defend the Constitution, because it is the foundation for our federal government and the law of the land. Just because a lawyer or judge issues an opinion about...whatever, doesn't mean that law is established. It is this simple concept that Dr. Paul has made reference to, time and again. Any action, policy or decree by any government body or agency, that is unConstitutional, is illegal and unenforceable. Yet, we the people have allowed just such behaviors and events to occur and that is why the U.S. is in the mess that we are complaining about. Government is engaged in establishing selective OPINION to be regarded and enforced as law.
Good Comment - Bump
Bump
I wrote a whole essay on
I wrote a whole essay on this, and from my humble opinion and research I found that John McCain was NOT a natural born citizen and was therefore NOT eligible. I also determined that the use of the term WAS important and was meant to be specific, because it was specifically requested by John Jay to George Washington.... so therefore, it's highly unlikely that the term/requirement "natural born" was open to wide interpretation.
Good Comment - Bump
Bump
What news do you all
Read???? Have you ever taken a look at what foreign journalists write about the US? Take a look at this site, pay special attention to some of the articles regarding John McCain, too bad our American journalists here in the States don't have the guts to tell the truth about McCain like these guys do.
http://www.presstv.com/
not sure if this link will work, The Swamp-Baltimore Sun would not allow the link to work:
http://www.presstv.com/De...
Some interesting reading that I just thought I would share.
Although I despise McCain...
.. I think he is just as "american" as anybody.
This issue is just a technicality and I don't think preventing someone like McCain from being president was the original intent and spirit of the law.
Children of American citizen military personnel should be eligible to become president. Besides, McCain has lived in the US nearly all of his life and has no foreign accent...
Like I said, I despise him but he is American and an American citizen and has no birth tie loyalties to any other nation or government, which is what this law was meant to safeguard from...
He's not as "American" as anybody
He's a sellout, a traitor, and scum. He sold us out in war (Songbird), he sold us out in peace (McCain-insert-other-polirtician-name-here legislation), he sold out his wife (adultery, the Perot situation), and he sold out his constituency (Black Mesa relocation genocide).
He doesn't deserve to be President. He deserves a firing squad!
Ok..
.. McCain is a traitor, but he is an American traitor. He's an American who is traitor. He's not a traitor because of allegiance to Panama.
Go after McCain for being traitor.
Bush is a traitor also...
=P
It doesn't matter if you
It doesn't matter if you "feel" like he is an American. He is a traitor, and he is a target for removal. If a "technicality" helps with that goal, then I am all for it.
American citizens who are
American citizens who are serving their country overseas shouldn't be punished by having their children denied birth citizenship.
I prefer to take the moral high-ground. And *feelings* do matter. They are the basis of determining the law in jury nullification. If I'm on a jury and I feel a law has been unjustly applied to you or that a law is unjust at its core then I can declare you "not guilty" and the law is null and void in your case...
Songbird has nothing to do with Panama
DUH!
Are you saying..
.. that McCain has birth-ties to Vietnam? What does Vietnam have to do with birth citizenship?
Are you bringing up another topic? You can be a traitor and have birth citizenship...
A lot of people think this is in bad taste
screw 'em.
I think the RP campaign should take some pointers from Murray Sabrin's campaign on New Joisy.
Murray announced what, about a month ago? And he's ALREADY knocked TWO rivals out of the race and is about to kick another one out. By being "tasteful"? Hell no!!!! By fighting tooth and claw, that's how!!!
Jeeez, people, the fate of our COUNTRY is at stake!
P.S. I LOVE you guys!!!
Real Good Comment
I agree, its time to pull up our shorts and roll up our sleeves and get tough. Real Americans are sick and tired of having sand kicked in our face and our money stolen every April 15th.
As hardily as I might pray for an honest tribunal to
honestly examine the facts of McCain's genuine status, I am left with the fact that I, and my fellow citizens, receive most of their information from a MSM which would even shock Orwell. Add to that the probable leanings of at least five members of the U.S. Supreme Court and the result will most probably be that the genuine facts of McCain's eligibilty will be buried in some articles or documentary that "historians" will chuckle at in years to come.
"Sir, you would have made an excellent historian. You have a profound contempt for fact."
WTF How is this possible?
I was born on a US Army base in Germany. My parents are both Americans but they still had to fill out NATURALIZATION papers for my citizenship when we came back to the states. If they had to do it, then I'm sure McInsane's parents had to do it also.
Yup.
And PCZ wasn't US territory, either, just a rental.
See the link below in the bottom-most post. It goes to a different thread that goes over all of that stuff.
This Is An Important Threat To Read
Please take time to read this threat on the Tannim comment below.
Uh, you meant "thread", I hope? :)
typos happen. No biggie.
Thanks - It must Be Bed Time
Thanks
Funny
Some people are trying to pass a law that requires employers to verify employee legal status. No question that McCain is legal, but natural born? I dunno.... lets see that birth certificate.
Wait, who was that blocked that proposed legislation? Lets call him an illegal and require him to provide proof of his citizenship. =)
More importantly
did he ever use that status to avoid US law.