Are we going too far?
Posted April 7th, 2008 by tnwatchman
output
Are we going too far in our quest for "understanding" ?
I just read an article at AJ/PP that is to me at least, pretty disturbing. "Large Hadron Collider Could Unlock Secrets of the Big Bang." Richard Gray, London Telegraph.
Scientist are trying to "recreate" conditions that existed on Earth after the "big bang". My question is why and for what purpose?
Something called a Hadron Collider has been built 300ft below the Alpine foothills. At 17 miles long, 12 stories high, designed to smash atoms together at high speed to "unlock the secrets of how the universe began."
Talk about extreme!! Sounds pretty dangerous to me. Maybe this time in the quest for knowledge, the results could be damages that can not be reversed. " Change our understanding of the world," indeed, Mr. Peter Higgs! Some things should not be manipulated or disturbed because of the end results it could render. Apparently Hawii environmentalist don't agree with this "experiment" as they are trying to block the European Nuclear Research Centre from conducting this madness in July.
These environmentalists filed a restraining order and are concerned that the process could "create a black hole that would suck up all life on Earth." As for me I see it as yet another quest to disprove creation. In the garden the serpent tempted Eve by saying if she partook of the fruit, she could be as god and have knowledge of good and evil. I pray this program fails to launch.
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I think...it is
I think...it is awesome..anything that hasn't been explored is cool..including science and god.
The finest physicist in the world
will tell you all they do or explore is totally thoretical. The total basis of Quantum theory is that we really exist although the theorist can offer no proof. My oldest daughter at the age of three asked me while we were having dinner how we know all this is real. I was a bit set off by the question and asked her what she meant. Her response was "everything". I told her to "shut up and eat your peas" . Her IQ has turned out to be 165.
But it all can be a dream, or nightmare. I've satisfied myself with playing the part I've seemed to be assigned.
hahaha that is hilarious.....
how do we know its real.....such a blatantly obvious and important question, yet you never really hear it asked....
I guess in order to survive we are pretty much forced to accept what we sense at face value as being real and meaningful.
Already online
The super collider already went online November 28, 2007. No new news about the results yet though, but obviously we are still here, so it either did not work they are not ready to release the results.
I subscribe to the ideology of plasma and electric universal philosophy anyway. The plasma theory holds a hell of a lot more water than current theoretical physics that explain phenomena in the universe. Look into the plasma theory and maybe it will allay some of your concern.
Are we really here...???
You are welcome for that esoteric moment. Hehehe
Hahahahaha goofballs abound.
God MADE science. Science is just puny mortal man's explanation and documentation of *how* God does some - not all - things.
Can scientists actually believe that the "laws" of science belong to man?
"Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth"
______________________
*** God bless Ron Paul ***
* Ron Paul For President *
science is quite limited, but.....
wisdom certainly does not come from simply believing in this thing called "God", which may or may not exist. Of course the "laws" (if there are any) do not belong to anyone, and man's brain is just as tied to those "laws" as anything else in the universe.
Like you said, ever learning but never coming to truth......Neither the believers nor the scientists have found any profound truths....both can be scene as pretty worthless i guess...
Actually the quotation is a paraphrase from God, 2Timothy 3:7
______________________
*** God bless Ron Paul ***
* Ron Paul For President *
strangelets
There is a chance that these could be produced..and there is a chance they could be of negative charge...if this happened it will be much worse than a tiny black hole..the world would soon be a lump of hot strange matter. Look it up.
Still no. The maximum
Still no. The maximum potential energy densities that we could create with anything well beyond current technology are still less than those that are being created all the time by the mutual impact of the highest energy cosmic rays. Since that process has been going on since the formation of the universe, it is exceedingly unlikely that the annhiliation of the earth via strange matter would happen as a result of our experiments, or it would have already been going on in the universe and would have already long ago destroyed earth and all other matter.
The real question is..
whether the taxpayers of the countries that are funding it are getting their money's worth?
I'm all for basic research, but if it can't be done with private funds, then it doesn't need to be done.
-jcr
*sigh*
You can not scientifically prove or disprove God.
God, by definition, is Omnipresent and Omnipotent. God, therefore, exists outside of the measurable realm, and can not be proven or disproven.
Science is simply an attempt to understand the measurable workings of our world.
Those that trust the Bible believe that Sodom was "destroyed." Science would seek to find out "how".
Proving how a "miracle" happened does not discount the miracle. An amazing series of events that winds up in a very positive outcome is still amazing.
As for those that fear creating matter or anti-matter reactors, consider your life without electricity. What if we never discovered how to create it? How to harness it? How to transport it?
What about fire? Imagine a world without that.
Yes, the same technology that makes nuclear energy possible also made the nuclear bomb.
The same technology that is used in television is used in guided missiles.
Don't fear technology and learning. Fear those who have technology and have not learned restraint.
I agree
God is out of the realm of science.
However, I think antimatter should at least be done off world. There are some concerns that the particles created using these supercolliders could create particles (like strangelets) that move to the center of the earth and start changing other atoms to resemble thier configuration-eventually leading to the destruction of the earth. This is only one concern brought forth in a lawsuit by nobel prize winning scientists to stop the collider.
There were similar concerns about the nuclear bomb igniting the atmosphere before setting off nuclear bombs in the air. That didn't happen, but we do have this pesky hole in the ozone layer...
agreed.....
Maybe if we had a constitutional government technology would be developed in the free market, and thus would always be striving to serve the customer. In that case, technology would always be used for the benefit of mankind. It is when the state gets involved that things get messed up.....it was the state that dreampt up such nightmares as the nuke, guided missiles, etc.
As we enter a whole new age of knowledge it is crucial that the market determine the course of technology, and thats why our fight is becoming ever more important....
do you enjoy living in a box?....
ever dare question the arbitrary human concepts that you've been taught? I mean, believe what you want, but at least question the things you've been told at some point in your life, don't be a sheep in a box.
Also, the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven, so science will never have anything to say about God's existence. They maybe can disprove stories in the Bible, but science can never say anything about God.
And I'm no astrophysicist, but how is a black hole going to form from smashing atoms together?? Is this your personal theory of what could happen or is there some actual reason and logic behind this claim? Black holes require an incredible amount of mass to form, and there is not enough probably even in our whole solar system, much less than in a few atoms.
Let me give you an interesting Buddhist story. Suppose you've been shot with an arrow, what will your first course of action be? Will you try to track the man down, and find out who he is and why he shot you? No. You'll go to the hospital to try to figure out how to get this giant piece of painful wood out of your body. Likewise, the Buddhists say, there is no point in trying to ask questions with unknowable answers. Your life is you with the arrow because you are always dissatisfied, even in moments of happiness, you are always still unfulfilled at every moment, and thus suffering. So, your goal should be to figure out how to relieve your own suffering, instead of asking pointless questions which you will never be able to answer conclusively.
Artificial black holes
Actually, Haightashbury, I have read that some of the scientists involved in this project believe that they may be able to create a black hole on earth ---- and that this is not a cause for concern. Black holes do not require nor are defined by tremendous mass, but tremendous DENSITY. By creating the requisite density, yes, they may create a black hole, but any black hole they could conceivably create would be so unimaginably small (say, like a quadrillionith the size of a proton), and exist for such an incredibly brief period of time (perhaps 1 trillionith quadrillionith of a second) that it would effectively have no time to absorb anything anyway. Black holes actually effectively "evaporate" due to what is called Hawking radiation, via virtual particle pair formation and separation at their event horizons, and the smaller they are the proportionately faster this process takes place, so there would be virtually no chance of any black hole created in a laboratory doing any damage or presenting any threat --- it would cease to exist almost at the moment of its own creation.
very interesting...
Yes, black holes require a great density, and, as far as I know, cannot form naturally without a great deal of mass being involved. I've never heard of artificial black holes, but then again thats probably because I don't know more than the average bear about astrophysics, interesting stuff though. I guess that all falls under the realm of quantum gravity, which I know nothing about.
You are right,
You are right, HaightAshbury, in nature (so far as we know) black holes DO require the collapse of a massive star to generate the requisite density to form, so stellar-sized (massed) ones are the only kind we have proof for. There is some conjecture that black holes of all sizes were formed during the Big Bang, and theoretically there is nothing stopping them from being formed at any mass, given the necessary density.
Maybe that's why there is no evidence for intelligent life
in the universe: Making planet gobbling black holes is easier than interstellar travel. The (fatal) land mine on the road to the stars.
LMAO! Good one! :)
LMAO! Good one! :)
Who me?
I question everything. However, though some feel the need to prove/disprove God, I don't have the need. That's called faith by the way. You may call it brainwashing, mental weakness, (get me my meds) or say that I accept the bible and believe in it because of my birth place. How sad this ideology is for me.
I said nothing about a black hole. It is a quote from the article. I just believe some things are better left alone!!!!
As for the "Buddhist story", I think if I got shot with an arrow my first inclination would be to remove it myself. If death wasn't the results, I'd chase down my foe and may the better "man" win!! I am fully satisfied with my beliefs and convictions. To me, they have a rock solid foundation. Futhermore, I do not feel as though I live in a box. Just a set of absolutes. Deem me disillusioned if you wish.
maybe I was a little too harsh there.....
Sorry. Anyway, I don't think there is anything wrong with faith. In fact, faith is required for a time even in Buddhism where there is no God. I mean, if the goal of Buddhism is to rid one's self of delusions in order to attain everlasting life and eternal happiness, then you can never be quite sure at first if you are cultivating true wisdom or not, and faith is required.
I do think you are disillusioned, but at the same time I see myself as being just as disillusioned. I can't come on here and claim perfect wisdom since I certainly continue to be dissatisfied at every moment, just like everyone else in the world who hasn't removed all the fetter's to becoming enlightened. I cannot be sure there is even anything called enlightenment. So, I am just as lost as the next person.
There is a lot of wisdom in the bible, I think, but then again I perceive Jesus as an enlightened Buddha.
As for going too far in asking questions.....I guess I just don't see the harm in trying to find the answers, but I suppose that is a matter of opinion.....
This project has nothing to do with understanding
Besides understanding how to build a bigger bomb-an antimatter bomb. That's why these colliders were made, for antimatter which is more explosive but supposedly less radioactive fallout.
It's Einstein all over again, except this time its not splitting the atom, its finding the atoms evil twin and its Stephen Hawkings theories (amongst others) they're using to build a bomb.
Why are some of you talking
Why are some of you talking about how you believe in God? Believing in God doesn't mean you're supposed to be anti-science and knowledge- try to do some research on this subject- these people aren't out on a stupid agenda to "disprove" God, that's ridiculous.
And believing in the Big Bang doesn't mean you can't believe in God, by the way.(as simple as saying "God sparked the Big Bang" if you want). God approves of the pursuit of knowledge..
You're entitled to your opinion
You're entitled to your opinion. But you do, IMHO, fail to see that science in many cases does aim at disproving God and/or creation beliefs. All can be explained by scientific processes and proceedures....right?
The bible is very specific about creation. Gee, six whole days... I don't recall big bang mentioned, or any reference to a situation that would lead one to believe that "God sparked the big bang ." (?) See how things get cloudy? ;)
Not to get into a debate or
Not to get into a debate or anything, but scientists are not foolish enough to try and disprove anything, because that can't be done without knowing everything about everything. However, it is possible to prove something, so that is the focus. Besides, there is no need to disprove something that has not been proven. Lastly, the bible is not the only book out there with a creation story.
dude
you got it backwards...
Science can only Disprove it's hypotheses and theories. It is, however, IMPOSSIBLE to prove anything. you're point is well intended, but your analogy is backwards, and thus, your logic suffers.
scientists make a claim (called a hypothesis) and they then devise an experiment to test the QUESTION (again this is the hypothesis, although a hypothesis is phrased in the form of a statement). With the results from the test (and retest, and retest, and retest...) a scientist can ONLY disprove a hypothesis. scientific LAWS are arrived at through many hundereds of retestings of the hypothesis underconsideration. If all these hundreds of tests yeild SIGNIFICANT results over and over again, then perhaps a THEORY and then a LAW can be formulated based on the apparently recurrently consistent results.
I think GOD/ULTIMATE SOURCE/ONE LIFE/ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS does exist.
As long as scientists are not getting their adgendas from the military or the government, then Christians have nothing to worry about. an Atheist Scientist sounds to me like a blind man riding motocross.
Moreover, if you're worried about science attacking your religion, then it sounds like your "faith" needs some work.
You are incorrect. A
You are incorrect. A hypothesis is a "guess" not a question. There is a difference. A hypothesis comes after the question, and is a proposal as to the answer of the question. Experimentation and testing is then done to prove whether the hypothesis is correct or incorrect. Yes, things can be proven.
But I agree that if people are worried about science attacking their religion their faith needs some work.
In Science
nothing can EVER be proven!!!
only disproven
science does not intend to prove anything, because it's impossible to do. Read Hawking, Einstein, Newton
look it up
wikipedia:
the scientific method
hypothesis functions as the question an experiment intends to investigate.
A word of advice... Never
A word of advice... Never use wikipedia as an absolute authority on a given subject. Anyone can edit the content there.
I agree,
I agree, the bible is not the only book that contains a creation story. Isn't it odd that they also contain stories about a flood? The bible is the book I rely on, some disagree and discredit it , that's their decision.
Isn't it odd also that if you prove something, you disprove something as well?????????
The only kinds of things I
The only kinds of things I find odd are the wave/particle duality of matter, or quantum entanglement.
i find it odd that.....
while science generally conflicts with the western religions, it tends to mold perfectly with some eastern religions, Buddhism in particular.
Not to keep harping on Buddhism, but one of the teachings that the Buddha thought was most important was the "no-self" teaching. This means that nothing has a true and immutable nature. This fits perfectly with the quantum mechanics of wave-partical duality. One can neither call matter a wave nor a particle since it contains properties of both, and in fact the difference depends upon the observer.
So, just as Buddhism teaches, perhaps matter cannot be said to exist independently with an immutable nature, and could never exist alone, isolated. Also important to note is that this means that your sense of "self" is completely illusory. You cannot be said to be "such and such" person, that is simply a product of ignorance that the illusion propogates itself through time and space. Also there can be no lines drawn where one can say "consciousness" starts here and "physicality" ends here. There can be no true identity for anything. As such, you are just a bunch of stardust that believes it is an individual. Sounds pessimistic, but it is the only way I can see to rid yourself of all the suffering caused by the delusion of the self.
"you are just a bunch of
"you are just a bunch of stardust that believes it is an individual."
Wow, that's gorgeous. I like that. I agree on most of those points. I may take an observational look into Buddhism - time permitting.
To some..
all that you speak of.... is new age spiritualism. LOL... not trying to start an argument but you're wayyyyyy out there for me. You are so "educated" , you're ready for take off.
tnwatchman...
what exactly are you watching? too much Rev. Dollar, or something. Read all the books, ancient and modern, new age and traditional, you are evolving right now, this whole human species is RIGHT NOW, and it's exciting. The RP Movement is proof of this. America is on the precipice of a paradigm shift...EVOLUTION, it's just missing one letter. Our civilization is changing at an alarming rate and is only accelerating everyday. Read more books... all religions, all schools of thought, all versions of history from varying perspectives. Put together all the info you read and you'll be awakened. Christianity was changed for the worse when the Pagan, Constantine, decided he should rewrite the bible. ever since, CHristianity/catholicism has been a vehicle of genocide, slavery, nationalism, elitism, xenophobia, i could go on... what other world religions (besides the obviously hateful sects of Islam) have such a corrupt history?
When it comes down to it, we all know there's something "out there" (and it's not the new agers!) beyond us, greater than us, with some inconceivable ultimate design, just look at any flower in bloom. So any particular individual interpretation of this BIGNESS, or GOD, is completely accurate. It's all the same thing, just an infinite way of describing it, because everything is ONE, so it's all the same as everything else... the human body consists of 99.9% empty space, the rest is stardust... chairs, monkeys, the sandy beaches, and the government bomb shelters... all empty space...
Edit / retracted
As not to be argumentative and emotional..........Pass the Stardust and cheers to you.
Yes, there is something out there!
Yes, there is something out there! And I suppose it could be said that various factors come into play as one decides what will govern their lives. I believe the "bigger thing" to be Father/Son/Holy Spirit. I sure do not need the likes of Creeflow Dollar or any other man of this earth to spoon feed me his interpertation/misinterpreataions of the word of God. I am well read as far as other venues of religion. I think you fail to recognize secular humanism as a religion, for one. Two, I think you fail to understand or really have made the decision to reject the biblical account of creation by the Father. Here in lies the root of our difference of opinion. There is always another explaination of the creation. I don't believe I "evolved" from apes. I'll pass on that "theory". But feel free to embrace your ancestors. Maybe you can come back as a cow or a rat as some religions believe. Maybe, just maybe you could stand some "enlightenment." Guess that thought never crossed your mind. Don't fool yourself into believing that just because you reject christianity that you are free from religion with all it's "hang ups." Ultimately, you will find yourself in the dark. Secular humanism plays into all the wants and desires of mans quest of self importance. Some gain a sence of self empowerment by waring with inocents.
As for this being a Revolution, maybe so. I disagree it is Evolution. Pauls message is not new, this is a REturning to our roots, as set forth by the "founding fathers" who at least had the nerve to say that our rights are GOD GIVEN. To believe in anything else is to reject the founding princples of this country. Paradigm shift indeed ! That terminology is not new for me either. Many do not understand it is basically a plan to convince society abandon a set of values, cloud your vision, make you question your beliefs until you are plyable enough to accept anything, you become confused as to where you truely stood to begin with. Same principle of" Dialectic Process" that has been discussed at this forum. It's tricky stuff *******************************
touche.....
Of course what I am talking about has nothing to do with new age spiritualism...but that is beside the point.
I see you as being just as "wayyyy out there" as you probably perceive me. I cannot conceive of believing stories written by people thousands of years ago just because it makes me feel warm and gooey inside, I guess that's just me though.
As for being "educated", I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Just being sarcastic I guess.
Anyway, not trying to be all smart here, just saying what I think. Write me off as some know-it-all prick if you want, but I did just say that I believe myself to be just as ignorant as the next person, wandering around through life aimlessly....
AW come on....
I wouldn't write you off as anything. I just have faith about something you don't understand and vice versa Some would say I live in a box, that doesn't bother me in the least. To me it equates to stand for nothing, fall for anything....
You are educated in a realm I'd dare not tread, no sarcasm intended. Heck, I'm not your maker or keeper. Good luck to you in your journey through this life, may you find the light and the way!
"We're too many people"-Ted Turner
"These environmentalists filed a restraining order and are concerned that the process could "create a black hole that would suck up all life on Earth."
that is what environmentalists like Ted Turner want....to reduce the population...
Below is taken from the Atlanta Journal Constitution's report on Turner's recent comments.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/...
If steps aren't taken to stem global warming, "We'll be eight degrees hotter in 30 or 40 years and basically none of the crops will grow," Turner said during a wide-ranging, hour-long interview with PBS's Charlie Rose that aired Tuesday.
"Most of the people will have died and the rest of us will be cannibals," said Turner, 69. "Civilization will have broken down. The few people left will be living in a failed state — like Somalia or Sudan — and living conditions will be intolerable."
One way to combat global warming, Turner said, is to stabilize the population.
"We're too many people; that's why we have global warming," he said. "Too many people are using too much stuff."
Turner suggested that "on a voluntary basis, everybody in the world's got to pledge to themselves that one or two children is it."
YOU first Ted
You can bet Ted Turner
woulld be first on my menu if he turns out right and i got the chance and need. Eat or be eaten? I would welcome the opportunity to see who would become the entree between he or I. His protestations about global warming ring with so much hypocracy that my stomache turns. How much energy does it take to feild a major league baseball team? How green is the home stadium in Atlanta?
Not sure that this is something to worry too much about...
From what I have read about it, it seems that they are experimenting with laboratory black holes on a small scale. They have been successful in the past, and the black holes they have created are small minute models of the real deal. But I am not a scientist by any means, so who knows what these experiments release into our atmosphere when they are created, or they could be harmful, who knows? I can tell you that I am more concerned with Floridated water, and nuclear testing as well as its waste.
BT
Dam politicians, not rivers!
No need to invent the wheel.
Like I said before, we have an endless supply of energy already available to use from the sun and nature. Why is it necessary to do these experiments? They are trying to prove the Big Bang Theory? First of all I don't believe God exists, God exists!!! How ridiculous to believe that some experiment will prove or disprove this fact. All that will be proved is the ability of the men to transform the Creature (Creation) into what we desire. This is our God given gift. Imagine how much better the world would be if we would use our talents, be more creative and conserve the creation rather then to invent things to destroy it. Sounds to me like it is just some wheelers and dealers trying to make a buck. And we will be forced to pay for it.
grant
While research often has military implications...
The Internet we are using to post these comments had its roots in ARPANET which was a defense project. For that matter, the personal computer itself relies on much that came from military research.
I do not know what the outcome of these particular experiments will be, but this sort of knowledge could possibly lead to new forms of energy generation or other beneficial results. Much of what we consider commonplace would have been considered black magic in the not too distant past.
Good point... By the way,
Good point... By the way, very nice posts JohnGalt300.
I'm more concerned..
.. about all the freaky stuff they are doing with genetics
o_O
Explain it to me again!
How is this suppose to help? I mean we got the sun right above us providing all the energy we need for free and we have to produce another source that we all have to pay for. Makes sense to me.
I don't "believe" God exists, God exists!!!
They ADMIT they do not know what could happen
They "THINK" they can control their tiny little black hole. I want to know, will they repsect my property rights if their "little black hole" gets out of hand? Will they be sure to stop it at my property line? If not, I feel I should be consulted before they are allowed to proceed. While opposed to global governance, I think a global vote on an issue that could destroy the globe would be appropriate.