"Unbound" Delegates -- How should we vote?
Posted April 8th, 2008 by spacehabitats
output
(I have edited this for clarity and to try to make my personal position clearer. Sorry for the length.)
I know this may seem like a silly question, but please read the following:
"First, you should realize that you will NOT have the opportunity to vote for Ron Paul for President. At the appropriate time, on the convention floor, the state delegation leaders will ask for a unanimous vote for John McCain. As a delegate you have three options: a) vote yes, or b) vote no, or c) get your alternate and let them vote for John McCain. There will be tremendous peer pressure for unity and loyalty for the “Party’s Nominee for President”, to show the country on national TV that we’re “all” solidly behind John McCain, so the country should vote for him. I am recommending that RP supporters maintain their integrity and take option “c)”."
This is advice coming from a source inside the Ron Paul national campaign. I believe that he is sincere and thinks that this is best for the movement. He has plentiful experience working within the GOP. This advice was specific for Iowa; a state whose delegates are NOT pledged and whose straw poll did NOT favor John McCain (Iowa).
Keep in mind that it is not easy to become a national delegate. In some ways it is like campaigning for office yourself. You need to be able to pay your own expenses to the convention (approx. $3,000). Typically you will have to do more than be nominated and give a good speech. Often you will have to contact hundreds of delegates by phone and hand out flyers at the district or state convention. It helps if you are well known to the party regulars, if you have had prior experience as a delegate, and can show a history of civic responsibility and activism (i.e. belong to the right clubs).
So if you are successful and you reach the national convention and it is just you and 21 other delegates who are ready to vote for John McCain, and they ask for your vote; what do you do?
If you vote for Ron Paul you will risk being considered a party pariah.
Traditionally you would be blackballed from ever being a national delegate again.
This is called burning your bridges behind you.
Your only hope of ever reaching that position of influence again would be if the RP movement was successful in becoming the majority in the Republican leadership. In some ways this is like taking a stance of civil disobedience, and there will be consequences.
If it matters to anyone, I WOULD vote for Ron Paul in these circumstances, but I think it is worth thinking about in advance.
I am NOT and never would advocate voting for McCain. I probably despise him more than anyone on this thread.
I would not defer to my alternate. (As suggested by the staffer.) In fact, I found the suggestion disturbing.
I will not reveal my source because it was a private email. I am not here to get anyone in trouble. I WOULD like Ron Paul to make sure that his campaign staff are on board and consistent with their messages to the delegates. (See my comments about delegate training support from the national HQ). Just because I think the staffer is sincere and experienced doesn't mean I think he's right.
I don't think any delegate should base their actions on my post. Heck, for all anyone knows, I COULD be an infiltrator. It just so happens that I am not. (Oh, and for what its worth, I'm not stupid either.)
And someone asked why anyone would go to all the trouble and expense to be a delegate and not vote for Ron Paul. I will quote from the email again.
"The basic roll of the Nat Del is to be a “Booster in the Bleachers” for the Republican Party and its Presidential Candidate; but, there is NO real power to determine destiny on the convention floor…sorry to share the reality. But, there are other perks! There are lots of host receptions, galas, parties, excursions, and hospitality events to attend, [and they really are great fun…as long as you enjoy socializing]. And, being a constant ambassador for Ron Paul’s “Limited Government” philosophy is a roll (RP-supporter) delegates can engage in. Remember Iowa does not have “committed delegates”, so we do NOT have
“Official Ron Paul Delegates”, or any other candidate “official delegates” as in some states. Technically, Iowa delegates can vote as they wish…but in reality, as we have discussed, for this Nat Conv, it’s now only formality for McCain.
4. Lastly, there will be lots of national and regional media present. Opportunities do exist for interviews with (RP-supporter) delegates who can use his name and discuss his true conservative Republican values and how he represents the traditional Republican positions on: the proper role of government. We can tout his foreign, domestic, monetary, and civil liberty policies, etc. as the wave of the future in American politics. Frankly, this channel is the only real opportunity the delegate has to impact on our future; and, it is a very valuable one. We should focus on candidates with strengths in this area: credibility, knowledge on issues, and articulation."
By the way, if I am making this all up and am a CFR infiltrator then they need to raise my salary.
But if I am not, then all of you flamers deserve to give me a great apology for bringing this to light.
Like I said, if you don't like this advice, then CONTACT THE NATIONAL CAMPAIGN AND HAVE THEM REFUTE IT.
I would personally be quite happy if they would.
Bookmark/Search this post with:
Do the delegates have a SECRET or OPEN ballot?
I assume it must be open, otherwise who would monitor whether they voted as "bound"?
ANYONE KNOW?
We will be there to back you!
Vote for Ron Paul, and don't look back!
Just vote for the right
Just vote for the right candidate. Do the right thing. If we aren't able to change the party in our favor then we're likely to all be thrown out anyways. Besides, I wouldn't want to compromise my beliefs and principles and be turned into something I don't want to be. And, if you do vote for Dr. Paul and he wins or we're able to return the party to the platform then we won't need to worry about not being included in the future, because we'll all be pioneers and essentially, we will be the party.
Thanks spacehabitats!
Your concerns are valid and this is a good discussion, since it is something we need to be prepared for when we get to the floor of the Convention. We have to block their moves at every pass. This is our chance and we can't drop the ball.
Delegates are our front line in the battle.
I would think a delegate would be willing to take a shot for the movement. Who cares if you aren't able to become a delegate for your State again. Move to another State, since I understand it to be a State issue anyways. If you take a hit for the Revolution other delegates will back you up along with volunteers at the Convention and many demonstrators who plan to be in St. Paul as well. Make your voice heard, this is a Republic and we are fighting to take control of the Republican party.
Good point.
And I have few qualms about spending $3,000 vacationing in sunny St. Paul with my wife. We will probably be there anyway demonstrating outside of the convention center even if she doesn't get elected.
By the way, she is calling all of the people on the district delegate's list. She is not hiding her support for RP but having a very positive response after chatting for awhile. None of them have been RP supporters but have told her that they will vote for her anyway. (And some of them admit that they should probably give Dr. Paul a second look.)
I know that it isn't always possible to please the GOP regulars without compromising our principles, but most of the time it is just inertia or wanting to hang onto there little seat of power. Very few of them (almost none?) really want to see the global fascists move forward with their agenda. And what we need to realize is that if we can touch them on a human level, many of them will stretch to accept our ideology. But if we start out as the skunk at the picnic, it will be almost impossible for us to persuade them EVEN WITH THE MOST COMPELLING LOGIC.
Sorry for the Psych 101 lecture. But it is true.
Good Topic
I think McCain will be the nominee of the GOP, but if I were a delegate I would vote for Paul. I'd expect/hope my fellow delegates would understand that I wasn't making an anti unity vote but instead a pro-Paul vote.
I think the best Paul delegates can hope for is to have an impact on the platform and maybe to get Paul speaking time at the convention.
Maybe a deal could be worked out between the Paul and McCain camps. Paul would get speaking time at the convention in exchange for urging his delegates to vote for McCain (in that case I would vote hold my nose and vote for McCain) maybe to get a prime time speech Paul would have to promise not to campaign for another candidate.
I could be wrong, but ...
The call for a 'unanimous' vote for McCain will come AFTER the real vote. If and when a candidate (McCain, Paul, or anyone else - it is possible for someone else to be nominated, though very unlikely) gets a majority of the delegates, on any ballot, then and only then will there be a motion to make his candidacy 'unanimous'. That will be a separate vote.
If I'm right, then ... assuming that there is a motion for a 'unanimous' vote for McCain, that will happen only after McCain has won a majority. In that case, voting against the 'unanimous' motion will have the effect only of making Ron Paul's supporters look like sore losers. In that case, option c does look like the best bet.
However, that does not rule out voting for Paul on the first (and, if any, subsequent) ballots. Those are two different votes.
-------------------
George Dance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dance_(Ontario_politician)
It is possible that
the GOP leadership will try to scuttle the ballot vote, and move a 'unanimous' vote instead. However, IMO that will make them look very bad, and I can't see them doing it: it will look like they're twisting arms in public, and subverting the democratic process right there on national TV. So I can't see them doing it - if not for the publicity, they'd do it, of course, as they're doing just that behind the scenes right now - but cancelling the balloting, right there on the convention floor, no. As I see it, McCain first has to win his majority, and only then is he entitled to a 'unanimous' vote.
-------------------
George Dance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dance_(Ontario_politician)
Let me clear some things up.
VOTE FOR RON PAUL!
VOTE FOR RON PAUL!
EVEN IF YOUR STATE DELEGATE LEADER THREATENS TO PULL OUT YOUR FINGERNAILS WITH NEEDLE-NOSED PLIERS....
VOTE FOR RON PAUL!
There, is that plain enough for you?
It was suggested that there may have been some confusion about which parts of my post were written by me, and which parts were excerpts from the email received by my wife. I did try to edit it so as to bold those sections but I kept bolding everything after the "<" sign.
(No, they don't teach us how to use HTML tags in CFR infiltrator school.)
There has been a call by some for me to "out" the man who sent the email as a traitor to the cause.
I will send an email to the national headquarters informing them of what he has been advising and let them judge for themselves.
I also invite all who feel that he is giving poor advice, to ask the campaign to instruct their staff about the proper content of their advice to delegates.
I will NOT simply divulge the name of the man who sent a private email to my wife as a private communication.
Now a point of personal privilege, I notice that Dr. Steve has again visited this thread and, again, failed to comment on the substance of my post but rather asked why it had not been "flagged" for offensive content.
Since I have not cast aspersions on anyone's character, nor said anything derogatory about Dr. Paul or his message, I can only assume that he feels that I am posting lies.
I offer to forward the email I received to Dr. Steve (AKA "SGP") on the following conditions:
1) That he promises, publicly and before the fact, NOT to divulge the name of the campaign staff member in question, WITHOUT POSTING THE EMAIL IN ITS ENTIRETY ON THIS WEBSITE.
2) That he not forward the email to anyone else without gaining the expressed permission from the original author. (I have ethical qualms about posting private communications, but I feel free to forward emails to an INDIVIDUAL unless that has been expressly forbidden by the author.)
Dr. Steve,
Do you call me a liar?
Do you think that my wife is a liar?
If that is the case, sir, I would ask you to speak plainly.
Let us not be mealy-mouthed.
But be enough of a man to apologize publicly, and with true humility, if I prove you wrong.
Otherwise I respectfully invite you to keep your opinions to yourself.
Good luck with that ....
Haven't you heard? He's never wrong!
What you suggest is wrong.
I they bring to the floor a proposal to vote unanimously for Ron Paul, then each and everyone of us must be hear. This means yelling and demanding a vote. And when the time comes, bound or unbound delegates should vote for Ron Paul. We have family, friends and neighbors that depend on us. Are we going to just lay down! What about the soldiers who have given their lifes for our freedom. Are we so worried about not being able to become a delegate in the future. Don't allow this to happen. This is why we need all forces there as delegates, volunteers and demonstrators out side of the Convention.
This is our movement, this is our country.
grant
You SHOULD...
.. be worried about being a delegate in the future because it is what Dr. Paul is asking you SPECIFICALLY to do.
But you don't care. All you want is your moment of adrenaline. It took 20+ years for the Barry Goldwater movement to result in the Reagan Revolution. But that's too dang boring for you.
Dr. Paul has asked us over and over to become part of the GOP. To be genial and friendly and convince the GOP members who like Reagan that we share their vision of conservatism and that the neocons are pretenders that are really ultra-liberal ex-trotskyite communists.
But you don't seem to even care what Dr. Paul is saying or what he is SPECIFICALLY asking us to do and how to do it. You just want your big frickin' headrush that will result in NOTHING.
This isn't a movie where you pack 10 years of emotion in two hours and then world is magically saved from the aliens. Dr. Paul keeps saying LONG TERM LONG TERM LONG TERM and you WON'T LISTEN.
Your Hollywood moment won't help Dr. Paul and it won't help Ron Paul Republicans. It'll just help you FEED GOOD. It's all about YOU. That's the problem.
Grrrrr!
McCain Camp Must Be A Bit On Edge
This is not the first anti-Paul post without any substantial supporting evidence and I believe the McCain camp is actually afraid of Ron Paul and his supporters. If any of these claims were true, the mainstream media would have latched onto this like a newborn on her mommy's teet.
This is all a great sign that perhaps our movement is gaining steam and the upcoming convention, along with RP delegates that are using the system as it was designed, are in a position to subvert war mongering, stealing the
Why?
The Old Media is DROOLING for Ron Paul delegates to "revolt" so they can scream and shout how we are "un-democratic" and rabble-rousers who don't have the social graces to build coalitions.
The Old Media is chomping at the bit for a revolt....
I tried really hard to be a
I tried really hard to be a delegate and did not succeed. (Let me clarify...I applied and have learned the GOP doesn't want me cuz I won't vote for McCain although the process has not yet been completed here...I am still hoping for a floor nomination though.) There are Many people just like me. If an RP supporter "burns bridges" with the GOP, Who Cares?? For every RP supporter they boot, there are prolly at least 50 of us waiting to fill the slot. We can not give up and we can not compromise our principles. I say vote for Ron Paul no matter who you are or what the consequences will be.
Even if..
.. the consequences of doing it destroys a huge chunk of what Dr. Paul has been trying to accomplish???
Dr. Paul has been asking us to become part of the GOP process FOR THE FUTURE. And to be genial and friendly and convince the GOP members who liked Reagan that the neocons are ultra-liberal trotskyite ex-communists and that Ron Paul's message is identical to Reagan's and that we are the real conservatives.
You are willing to crush what Dr. Paul is trying to accomplish for a single moment of emotional outburst? Swell.
You're not trying to understand, listen to or help Dr. Paul. You are trying to recreate a "Braveheart" emotional moment for yourself. So you can feel pumped up for a minute... consequences be damned. Just as long as you get your headrush..
For crying out loud, people,
For crying out loud, people, what are you attacking the poster for?? Are you not able to distinguish that he these are not his thoughts - he is passing them along for our awareness/discussion? Some of you really need to settle down. Geez.
Thank you!
Finally a note of sanity.
For minute there I thought that I had been dropped into a poorly run preschool.
Well my goodness,
Well my goodness, spacehabits ... you shouldn't have to be a MENSA member to figure out that those are not your thoughts. But as it is, welcome to the McCain camp, home of those who dare utter a contrary opinion!!
Ughhh ... sorry for the snark ... but that kind of ignorance coupled with pure ad hominem attacks is really irritating to me. On behalf of them, I apologize to you and your wife and keep up the fight for Ron Paul :-)
You go..
.. grrrrl!
;)
Grrrr is right! :-P
Grrrr is right!
:-P
Grrrr-
ooovy!
B)
Faithless Delegates ...
While I see that this thread is about those lucky enough to be "unbound" delegates, I got curious about the fate of those whom were "bound" to those who's names shall not be spoken.
So I googled the term "faithless delegate" and was surprised that what I found was a whole lot of chatter about the "Clinton strategy".
Evidently it is Hillary's strategy right now, to win by subverting the dem delegates. I wasnt aware of that. Here is an example:
http://www.washblog.com/s...
Which brings me back to wondering about just how bound "bound" delegates realy are.
Its realy a matter of personal principles though IMO.
One did say that they would do a certain thing. Can they now not do that, regardless of how dispicable the act would be?
Stand up as did our forefathers.
No one can bind you to do anything, you are freepersons the system was set up for delegates to vote how they want. So stop worrying about losing your rights to become a delegate in the future. By then we will control the party and change that rule too.
Sorry, still voting for Ron Paul
There are a lot of supporters here who would fight and die for this revolution. I highly doubt very many of them will toe the party line because they don't want to upset anybody.
Get real.
Me too.
I am not afraid of standing up for what I believe in. My bf and I are both state delegates. I know tons more who go through as well. It is not over until it's over. Also, leaders in each state should be taking care of the paperwork and forms that would allow write in votes for Ron Paul to be counted.
The Real Question is
Dose any State have the legal power to bind delegates?
One might assume they do, but it is clear in case law and RNC rules that RNC rules are superior to any state law or state party rules. Lets look at the rules.
RULE NO. 29
Voting
(a) Each delegate to the convention shall be entitled to one (1) vote, which may be cast by an alternate delegate in the absence of the delegate, and an individual holding more than one (1) of the following positions: national committeeman; national committeewoman; or state chairman of any state, shall not be entitled to more than one (1) delegate seat and shall not be entitled to more than one (1) vote.
If you are a rightfully elected delegate you have a right to vote.
RULE NO. 38
Unit Rule
No delegate or alternate delegate shall be bound by any attempt of any state or congressional district to impose the unit rule.
I was not sure what the unit rule was so I looked it up.
The unit rule, a practice formerly observed by the Democratic Party at its national conventions, required that the entire vote of a state delegation be cast as a unit for the candidate preferred by a majority of that delegation.
RULE NO. 38 seems to clearly prohibit the binding of delegates and RNC RULE NO. 29 states that each delegate to the convention has a right to 1 vote and RNC rules are superior to any state law or state party rules.
I am getting sleepy and still have to look into the nomination process, but at first glance it takes the majority of the delegates from 5 states to nominate a candidate to be voted on at the national convention, so the time frame for a legal challenge as to wether delegates can be bound by state laws or rules would be when delegates are bound by state rule or law.
OK big question for every so called bound delegate, and I have not seen this answer state by state, but when are you bound? Is it even legal?
Party rules are clear, No delegate or alternate delegate shall be bound. and we need to fight for this rule at every level.
The Republican Party has let me down
and they are slowly killing themselves off with their necon leanings.
This is NOT about the republican party this is about OUR COUNTRY !
Just because it came from RP's campaign office doesn't mean
you should do it! Some of the people working for Ron are undoubtedly trolls that infiltrate to influence him to lose!
And and..
.. if Dr. Paul told you face-to-face then it MUST be a clone cyborg from the evil planet Borzog!!
=P
WHY HAS EVERYONE NOT FLAGGED
WHY HAS EVERYONE NOT FLAGGED THIS YET?
Dr. Steve Parent
BECAUSE IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE
BECAUSE IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE
Yo..
.. Steve.
*hugs*
(=
Atta boy...first the wedgie
and then you pull his pants down to his knees. Love it! : )
"The great tragedy of Science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."
- Thomas H. Huxley
Woohoo!
*hugs@peg*
(=
I am spacehabitats' wife
Hi,
I am amazed at the responses to my husband's post!
Most of them are interesting and helpful, but some of the comments are hostile and absurd.
I am a district delegate who is campaigning to be a national delegate.
Yes, I did receive an e-mail from someone on the official RP staff.
Yes, everything put in quotes from the post is word for word from my e-mail.
This is something important for RP supporters to know about.
I felt the same way as most of you have said. I was surprised and disappointed by the advice I was receiving. I did wonder what the point was in being a national delegate if I could not vote for Ron Paul. I am a believer in doing what is right no matter what. I believe in voting my conscience. I do not care about pleasing the GOP. I thought that this was a rare opportunity that I did not want to miss out on. I still do, and plan to do the right thing and vote for RON PAUL!
I Am Calling Shenanigans
Shenanigans Shenanigans Shenanigans Shenanigans Shenanigans Shenanigans Shenanigans
You both are deceitful.
I'm not space's wife..
.. and I approve this message
So OUT the idiot who sent him and you that email
Expose the campaign troll, whomever it is.
Otherwise it is just a divisive rumor.
But if there is a troll in the campaign staff, then that troll needs to be outed, tarred, feathered, and run out on a rail.
If they wanted unity...
If they wanted unity...
...they would NOT call libertarians and constitutionalists "kooks."
...they would NOT violate their own bylaws in order to exclude Ron Paul Republicans.
...they WOULD unify on PRINCIPLES, NOT on a POLITICIAN.
How about leave the room for that moment..
go tothe bathroom!
This seems to be a "bide
This seems to be a "bide your time" strategy. I can't say I disagree. The more delegates we have in the future, the better. Patience is a virtue. But I would never vote for McCain. Good luck, whatever your decision.
What time? We're out of that, and this the only shot we've got.
The GOP will be dead in a decade if they nominate McCain. The GOP leadership fails to realize this is not 1996 Part II. They can't throw McCain under the bus as they are doing and expect the bus to not go over the cliff from the impact.
So why buy into that? Save the GOP for the ballot access and funding, but gut the hacks and flacks from the ranks and rebuild it, before it is too late.
In 1996 the GOP had Bob Dole (it was his turn), they had an embattled but relatively popular Democrat incumbent President running for re-election, they had a good economy, and they had control of both houses of Congress. If Dole lost it was status quo, and the GOP didn't want him, so they threw him under the bus. They could afford to.
In 2008 the GOP has John McCain (presumptively until we change it, but it's his turn, too), they have an open seat President following a lame duck very unpopular Republican, the economy is in the toilet, and the Democrats control both houses of Congress. That's exactly the opposite of 1996 all around, yet they are treating McCain as they did Dole. What they don't see is that by doing so they run the great risk of destroying themselves this time. This is why they need Dr. Paul because he can save their party IF THEY LET HIM, along the way, while Dr. Paul saves the country. McCain will do neither, and the GOP grassroots knows it even if the leadership doesn't get it yet. McCain is the weakest candidate the GOP has had since Dole, and that includes Bush Jr. The GOP not only can't win with him and his baggage, but they risk giving the Democrats veto-proof majorities as well. With Dr. Paul they at least can prevent that from happenning because he is the only shot they have to win 1600PA because he has the right message. But they ridicule him instead.
The GOP is running out of time, plain and simple. They can lose and lose huge with McCain, or they can survive and even win with Dr. Paul. Unfortunately, they seem to choose shooting the patient to stop the bleeding instead of calling the doctor.
well then, if this is true
well then, if this is true (as it likely is), then it seems our only hope is for a miracle or John McCain to die/have a stroke or otherwise prove ineligible.
Yup
.
This Is Not About Party Allegience, This Is About Saving Our....
Republic. Screw the Republican Party and their so-called "unity". If you are unbound, most definitely vote for Ron Paul. If you are bound, you must utilize a strategic approach. If it appears McCain will easily get the required 1191 "bound" delegates, then you are morally obligated to vote for Ron Paul. This opportunity will NEVER arise again. And the worst case scenario is that you can never be a delegate again in the future. Who cares, we are in a battle to save this country of ours. However, you can continue as a delegate throughout the remainder of the convention in St. Paul. In St. Paul, we (the RP Delegation) will be the representatives of rightesnous and will be morally and ethically obligated to do what is right. The Founding Fathers will be watching over us and rest assured, they would have done the same.
How will..
.. you save the republic by being disqualified and permanently banned from being a GOP delegate in the future by "revolting" as a McCain bound delegate?
Dr. Paul and his son keep talking about becoming delegates for the long term and genially and civilly convincing the GOP members who liked Reagan that Dr. Paul is one of them and that we share common values and that the neocons are ex-communist Trotskyites and liberals.
I don't see how this will help AT ALL....
If McCain gets the nomination there will......
not be a future to revolt.
We are revolutionary
We are revolutionary soldiers, not politicans. Revolutions change things, politicians do not.