HAVING PROBLEMS VIEWING THE SITE? GET FIREFOX! | A NOTE ON ADVERTISING

   

Can government stay limited?

I have began to question this lately. It is one of the biggest assumptions of the RP movement. It has has not been vigorously debated or questioned.



Here's what Murray Rothbard had to say:

a)If, in fact, we cast a cold and logical eye on the theory of "limited government," we can see it for the chimera that it really is, for the unrealistic and inconsistent "Utopia" that it holds forth.



b)He goes on to say:
Certainly, historically, no government has long remained "limited" in this way. And there are excellent reasons to suppose that it never will. First, once the cancerous principle of coercion – of coerced revenue and compulsory monopoly of violence – is established and legitimated at the very heart of society, there is every reason to suppose that this precedent will be expanded and embellished.

c)I really wonder what Ron thinks of that point (I know Ron was friends with Rothbard, so I wouldn't be surprised if has read the book that these quotes are from).
Is the government just a parasite that we fail to see?



d)And lastly:
Surely the bloody record of States throughout history should have demonstrated that any power, once granted or acquired, will be used and therefore abused. Power corrupts, as the libertarian Lord Acton so wisely noted.



e)Do you think that Ron might be advocating limited government as a stepping stone on the to a completely free-society?

I think he might be...

output

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

personally

Fortune Favors the Bold

I think the internet makes anarcho-capitalism more viable. Today I had a meeting with a group who are co-ordinating to do skill shops, where people with different skill sets will have conferences to teach each other DIY skills. We also want to develop an alternative to state run education, and salvage bikes to donate to workers so they will be less dependent on gasoline to commute.

Oooo.

I need to do some thinking before I decide to take a stance on this.

It's one of those common sense answers that isn't very common.

Are we ready for a completely free society...That is the question I am asking myself right now. I will sleep on this.

We can all say what needs to be done, but who here led by example today?

I agree

Fortune Favors the Bold

As I have noted before, I am a self-defined anarchist.

If you haven't seen this,

watch Occult world of commerce by Jordon Maxwell
on Google video.You will find that the rabbit hole goes much deeper than government.

Sounds kind of sinister-conspiratorial to me...

I might check it out.
----------------

But, jeepers, I want to hear what people on this site have too say.
Most peeps on this site are advocating something that has not been vigorously debated.

Go!

It hasn't been been questioned or debated...

But, even if government could stay limited...why on earth would you want it?

Consenting to let a group (ie. the government) steal money (ie. taxation) is just plain dumb.
Nevermind letting them enforce (with that money) a law code based on their whims of the moment.
You find yourself where we are now...

People let the statists run

People let the statists run the government carte blanche, and then complain that government is evil by nature. How the hell would they know?

How many people among us support the Libertarian Party when they vote?

How many people among us run for public office?

How many among us form their own libertarian societies and communities instead of living meekly in Socialistburg, USA?

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

But government is evil by nature...

even if there were "angels" running it.


Don't you agree that the the initiation of violence on another individual is immoral?
Government is founded on that initiatory violence (just think of taxation)...

yes

Fortune Favors the Bold

untill such time as people realize its in their own best interest not to use violence to obtain their goals, a government will have a monopoly on force as people will see it as preferable to smaller, competing governments.

Government is Cancer

Government, like cancer, will grow until it kills the host. "Limited" government is like cancer in remission: it may be innocuous for a while, but eventually it will resurface and continue its campaign of destruction. Where you see it, kill it. If you can't kill it, cripple it. If you can't cripple it, retard it. Do whatever you must to deny it, defy it, and decry it.

Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Professor Bernardo de la Paz
www.citizenduquesne.org

I am an anarcho-capitalist.....

I only support the Constitution because it is only from a Constitutionalist government that we can finally form some anarcho-capitalistic societies in order to show people their superiority. Also, I support the Constitution because it is an easy sell to Americans, it lies at the heart of who we are. So, you are going to have a lot more success talking to them about limited government rather than anarcho-capitalism. I highly doubt there is going to be an anarcho-capitalist revolution anytime soon, and nor would I want one, it needs to be a somewhat gradual pullback....

As for a limited government, certainly, it would have been impossible for the Founders to predict what would happen in the following centuries. In that time people mainly associated with what colony they were from rather than being an 'American', and so it would have been difficult for them to see just how great the forces of centralization would become. Also, they could never have predicted how passive and cowardly the American population would become.

If men in power actually abided by Constitutional principles, then society would be both very peaceful and very prosperous. However, it is an inevitability that any state structure will eventually evolve so that all the barriers to oligarchy become thinner and thinner. The Founders certainly made the process of government difficult to prevent sudden usurpations of power, but over time the government structure has evolved as such that the powerful centralized interests are much the same. This is why we have a pushover congress, a corrupt and easily bribable judicial system, and an out of control executive branch. Where once they set themselves against each other, now they work moreso together to screw the rest of the country over. So, the original intent and government structure was superb and well thought out, no doubt, however positing a 'state' no matter how small it begins, it feeds upon the host and grows and grows until finally it becomes a serious problem. The Constitution is an attempt to put a band-aid on a gaping wound so to speak....I think the problem is the positing of the state, which then requires complex ideas and structures, such as those found in the Constitution, to combat the existence of the state itself.

This is precisely why I favor an anarcho-capitalist system over a limited government system. Why should some of the most important institutions in our society, such as protection or justice, be handled by the state? Even under the best intentions, the state fails miserably in all things (besides maybe a few rare lucky successes here and there). And of course, we all know that what may start as good intentions inevitably give way to the growing roots of corruption, which is the natural tendency in any state structure. As such, things like justice should be under the forces of the free market, like competition. One interesting society to research is medieval Iceland, where they had private courts, and they were very effective. I believe that it is difficult to see how exactly the market would handle such things (and this is why most people recoil at the idea of privatization), but we can definitely theorize that it would be far superior to any state form of justice. I think in a society built around private property and voluntary contract not only would you have an efficient, peaceful, and prosperous society, but also the very institutions by which humans associate (which under a state system are static or devolving) would evolve into ever better forms of dealing with our daily human affairs. You might even think of it as an extension of Darwinian evolution, because it would operate on many of the same principles.

My main point is that there are really two options. Let the institutions develop naturally in an anarcho-capitalist system or attempt some form of artificial intervention (i.e., the state, no matter how small). So, the question becomes can artificial intervention improve what would otherwise be the human course of events? I believe the answer is a resounding no. And, in fact, the human race can only truly move forward in the abscense of this horrid thing called the state.

I sincerely hope in the future people will look back at our civilization and others before it and think, "What in the hell were they thinking??" The only reason the state has legitimacy is because it has been there since the dawn of civilization, and since people grow up with it they accept it as simply "how it is". If we can rid ourselves once and for all of this beast through anarcho-capitalism then I doubt government would ever be able to rear its ugly head again for the rest of humanities time here in the universe.

I think the pruning

Of government is part of the process. It keeps Americans in a constant state of revolution, the more you let it slide, the larger the revolution needs to be. Maybe that's why the saying,

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

I was going to reply to the OP...

but you already got it.. ;)

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

It sure does...let's prune this unwiedly tyrant!

.bump

Bump again...let's get some discussion on this topic!

It's barely been touched at all on this forum!