Latest news on the hoax that led to 600 kidnappings in Texas
Posted April 23rd, 2008 by alaskaron
output
Calls from 'Sarah' kept on coming
By Ben Winslow
Deseret News
Published: April 24, 2008
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Even after the raid on the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch that led to the removal of 437 children, 16-year-old "Sarah" continued calling for help.
Calls from her phone went to a battered women's shelter in Everett, Wash.; a southern Utah-based advocacy group for people leaving polygamy; a rape crisis line in Colorado Springs; an abuse counseling center in Ft. Meyers, Fla.; and an anti-polygamy activist in Arizona.
Those calls now appear to be a hoax, as an arrest warrant unsealed in a Colorado Springs court on Wednesday indicated phone numbers used to call the shelters match cell phones belonging to a woman named a "person of interest" in the Texas investigation.
The woman may also suffer from a multiple personality disorder, an arrest warrant affidavit suggested.
Colorado Springs police have been investigating Rozita Swinton, 33, for a series of hoax calls reporting child abuse, the affidavit states. Texas Rangers said a pair of cell phone numbers from the Colorado Springs area were possibly related to the calls that reported abuse at the YFZ Ranch.
But the phony calls will not undo the decision to take the children from the YFZ Ranch, said an attorney appointed to represent one of the children seized in the raid.
"That it was triggered by a call that appears to be a hoax does not affect the cases concerning the safety of the children," said Susan Hays, a Dallas attorney. "It might affect the criminal cases, but not the civil cases concerning the custody and safety of the children."
That is because what police discovered when they responded to the calls allows them to go forward. Texas Child Protective Services workers said they found other signs of abuse, including pregnant teenagers and child brides.
Sarah
The calls were first made to the Newbridge Family Shelter in San Angelo on March 29 by a girl who identified herself as Sarah Barlow. She said she had an 8-month-old baby and was pregnant with another child. She said her husband, 49-year-old Dale Barlow, abused her and she wanted off the YFZ Ranch.
"Sarah Barlow desired to leave the YFZ Ranch compound, but stated to call takers that if she were caught, she would be locked in her room and not allowed to eat," the affidavit said.
It was that call and additional calls the next day that triggered the raid on the YFZ Ranch on April 3, and ultimately led to the removal of 437 children.
Anti-polygamy activist Flora Jessop also spoke to "Sarah" for more than 40 hours beginning March 30. "She sounded just like a little girl," Jessop told the Deseret News. "She was really damn good."
Meanwhile, "Sarah" had called a battered women's shelter in Everett, Wash., saying that her husband lived at an apartment complex there.
"Sarah Barlow advised she had been moved from the YFZ Ranch approximately three weeks ago and was assigned to a new husband named 'Merrill,"' the affidavit said, referring to Merril Jessop, who is in charge of the YFZ Ranch.
The girl also said she had been moved again, but was unsure where she was. It was at this time that FLDS women and children were being housed in emergency shelters. Authorities were questioning young women, trying to glean if they really were "Sarah," who had described herself as blond-haired, blue-eyed and pregnant.
Texas Rangers had already traveled to Utah to interview her purported husband, Dale Barlow, who was already on probation for his conviction stemming from a marriage to a 16-year-old girl. Barlow told the Deseret News he had never met "Sarah" and hadn't been to Texas in years.
"Sarah Barlow was fearful of revealing her true identity to anyone for fear that the 'sister wives' had told her that her baby would be taken away," Colorado Springs police detective Terry Thrumston wrote in the affidavit filed with the arrest warrant.
On April 10, the shelter in Washington called Schleicher County (Texas) sheriff's deputy John Conner, and put a crying "Sarah" on a three-way phone call.
"Sarah Barlow had repeatedly said she felt she would be punished for the trouble she caused," the affidavit said. "Sarah Barlow insisted that if she came forward her baby would be taken away."
The girl on the phone claimed to have a twin sister and wanted help getting her sister and mother out of Utah. "Sarah" said the women at the shelter brought teddy bears and small cars to the children, but she "didn't want to talk to one of the social workers because she was wearing a short-sleeved shirt."
"Sarah Barlow also stated that the 'sister wives' had told her the workers were trying to poison the people from the YFZ Ranch with food in shiny wrappers," Thrumston wrote.
The girl also blamed a worker at the Newbridge Family Shelter in San Angelo for the raid on the YFZ Ranch, the affidavit said, and would hang up saying the "sister wives" were coming or she needed to pray. Conner pleaded with "Sarah" to come forward, offering to help her leave the shelter area.
"Sarah Barlow advised deputy Conner not to wear red. Sarah Barlow also stated she wanted to leave the shelter at nighttime," the affidavit states. "Each time that deputy Conner would request a description of Sarah Barlow's location, she would not answer and finally hung up."
Other calls
The court papers said the calls came from the same number, and "Sarah" said the phone belonged to a cousin in Colorado. The FBI traced the calls through phone records and eventually pointed Texas Rangers to Rozita Swinton's apartment in Colorado Springs.
The affidavit revealed that one number called the Snohomish County Shelter for Battered Women in Washington approximately 28 times from March 29 to April 12. That same number called the Newbridge Family Shelter in San Angelo 16 times from March 29 to April 5. Another number linked to Swinton called the shelter another seven times.
Colorado Springs police wrote they had already been investigating Swinton for a series of hoax calls including one in October 2007 where a 13-year-old girl named "Dana" said a youth pastor had sexually abused her. After days of phone calls with the hysterical girl who said she'd been locked in a basement, drugged and sexually abused by her father, police started linking the phone number to other calls in Longmont and Pueblo, Colo., where false reports of sex abuse had been made.
In September 2006, Colorado Springs Rampart High School counselor Catherine DiNuzzo called police about a girl named "April" who claimed her uncle was taking her to an abortion clinic. The counselor agreed to meet with "April" in front of the school. Police wrote that when DiNuzzo called the number, she saw a black woman answer the phone and run away.
Police also spoke to "April" several times, but the girl refused to talk to her face-to-face. Those calls continued through 2007, where numerous officers and and shelters received similar calls. Each time the phone numbers appeared to be the same.
In November 2007, police wrote that "April" — now going as "V," called DiNuzzo again and "congratulated Ms. DiNuzzo on having a baby and what a good mother she was. She advised 'V' told her she had seen her and her family out shopping. 'V' began calling Ms. DiNuzzo on a regular basis at work and home."
A new personality?
On Feb. 26, 2008, "Jennifer" called Colorado Springs 911 and said she was "locked in her basement since Friday because she had gotten in trouble," the affidavit states. Officers spent hours going door-to-door through neighborhoods searching for the girl.
It was in one of the neighborhoods during the search that officers spoke to Jennifer Pierce, who was a counselor at the Trust, Education, Safety, Support and Action — a domestic violence shelter in Colorado Springs.
"Ms. Pierce asked if officers were looking for a female claiming to be locked in a basement," Thrumston wrote. "Ms. Pierce advised she knew who officers were looking for."
That led police to "Dana" and the same phone number.
In March, the affidavit said, police questioned Pierce again, who said she continued to get calls from "Dana" at a new telephone number, claiming to be locked in a basement and drugged.
"Dana" once told Pierce that she was in a domestic violence shelter, and that "it was actually her other personality that went to the safe house, 'Rozita,"' the affidavit said. "Ms. Pierce advised 'Dana Anderson' stated 'Rozita and Dana' are in the same body, just different personalities."
Arrest
Colorado Springs police arrested Rozita Swinton last week for investigation of false reporting to authorities, a misdemeanor. When they served the search warrant on her home, Texas Rangers were there. The Texas Department of Public Safety confirms it seized items from her home that indicated a connection between Swinton and calls about the FLDS compounds in Colorado City, Ariz., and Eldorado, Texas.
Texas DPS spokeswoman Tela Mange said Wednesday the investigation was ongoing and Swinton remains just a "person of interest." She has not been arrested or charged in connection with the Texas case.
"We are still examining evidence that was seized from her residence and do not expect that investigation to be completed for a while," Mange said in an e-mail to the Deseret News. "Because there is an ongoing criminal investigation, we will be limiting our comments."
The affidavit, however, said that one phone number linked to Swinton by Colorado Springs police "was possibly related to the reporting party for the YFZ Ranch incident in Eldorado, Texas." Shortly after bailing out of jail, Jessop said, Swinton called her again claiming to still be "Sarah."
Swinton was convicted in connection with a 2005 case stemming from a false report in Castle Rock, Colo., where she claimed to be a 16-year-old girl named "Jessica" who wanted to abandon her baby and kill herself.
Numerous attempts to reach Swinton for comment have been unsuccessful. Colorado Springs authorities said she is scheduled to make her first appearance to the misdemeanor false reporting charge in May.
The Utah Attorney General's Office confirmed to the Deseret News it is investigating a similar call of abuse and whether it is connected to the calls that sparked the raid on the YFZ Ranch. A call was placed to child welfare workers in St. George, alleging child abuse and neglect. A Division of Child and Family Services spokeswoman said the information gleaned from the call "may or may not be related to an existing criminal matter."
E-mail: bwinslow@desnews.com
© 2008 Deseret News Publishing Company | All rights reserved
(Below material is from original post on 4-23.)
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/ar...
April 23, 2008
Confirmed: Fraudulent Polygamy Cult Tipster is Barack Obama Delegate
From the local party's website:
http://www.peakdems.org/o...
Stacey McCain digs this up:
http://rsmccain.blogspot....
After the El Paso County (Colorado) Democratic caucuses and convention, she was named one of the 360 delegates to the state convention at the World Arena on May 17, chosen to support Barack Obama.
She's also reported as being politically active, but relatively unknown. Earlier reports said that when Texas Rangers and Colorado State Police searched her home, they found tons of information on the FLDS cult. Apparently, she made the whole story of poor "Sarah" the abused child-bride of a 50 year old man out of sensationalist reports that she had read from anti-cult groups.
Most of those in the comments still defending the raid seem to focus on the allegation that "girls as young as 13 are married and pregnant". One of the FLDS lawyers I keep seeing on TV says that this is patently false, and the claim made by the state is not that there are "13 year olds" but a single allegation that one 13 year old was pregnant 10 years ago.
If that is true would it change your perception that there is some justification for tearing hundreds of kids away from their families based on a search warrant executed on false grounds?
Bookmark/Search this post with:
How to take action
To take action, please visit http://freetechildrenacti...
as you can see the state
as you can see the state owns your children... I hope that stupid woman who made the false reports gets a good sentence in a federal prison! no i'm not lds, and no i do not think polygamy is right.. but who is the government to take children from their parents over lies!
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD
"Thou shalt have no gods before me." -Texas
The state believes it is supreme, God, the highest power. There is no other conclusion one can draw from this atrocity.
"Thou shalt have no gods before me." -Texas
The state believes it is supreme, God, the highest power. There is no other conclusion one can draw from this atrocity.
"Probable cause is just
"Probable cause is just that," Palmer said. "You're not dealing with
certainties. You're dealing with probabilities."
Is it probable that Palmer is an idiot or is it certain?
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee
Certain
"Is it probable that Palmer is an idiot or is it certain?"
I'd say the odds are pretty good on that one. Her and the rest alike.
We're using RonPaulians.com
We're using RonPaulians.com to get organized for the March and State actions. Please spread the word :)
Very easy to use.
LETS GET ORGANIZED!!!
Be sure to put your profile on www.RonPaulians.com !!!
A MySpace JUST for Ron Paul supporters with profiles, photo albums, chat, classifieds, events, blogs and more. Add video/music widgets etc.
Tell all Ron Paulians!!! :)
We're using www.captivefldschildren.org
And I think I will go post that on every single discussion thread on your site. Okay?
When will these people just back off and admit they were fooled?
Confidence in FLDS arrest warrant now shaky, authorities say
http://www.gosanangelo.co...
warrant-now-shaky-say/
By Paul A. Anthony (Contact)
Thursday, April 24, 2008
Revelations that the March 29 phone call that sparked a raid on a
Schleicher County polygamist compound may be a hoax have led
prosecutors to doubt the reason for the original search-and-arrest
warrant that granted authorities access to the YFZ Ranch.
Arrests still could be made in the case, said First Assistant 51st
District Attorney Allison Palmer. The raid, based on the warrant, led
to the removal of 437 children from the Fundamentalist Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch, the largest child custody
action in Texas history.
"If it were true that the female who identified herself as Sarah is
not really Sarah, I do not feel that would be enough to (invalidate)
the search warrant," Palmer said.
Palmer used the phone calls as the probable cause necessary to secure
the search-and-arrest warrant granted by District Judge Barbara
Walther.
"Some events have shaken our belief and confidence in that probable
cause," Palmer said.
Nevertheless, she added, the criminal investigation continues and
still could result in arrests - even if the original reason turns out
to be faulty. The arrest warrant remains active, she said, and
prosecutors have not decided whether they will file a motion to
withdraw or dismiss it.
"Probable cause is just that," Palmer said. "You're not dealing with
certainties. You're dealing with probabilities."
Colorado authorities and the Texas Rangers are investigating whether
a Colorado Springs resident made the series of phone calls March 29
and 30 that led the NewBridge Family Shelter in San Angelo to contact
the state's Child Protective Services agency and relay her claims of
physical and sexual abuse at the ranch.
Questions about the phone calls' legitimacy have arisen as three
weeks have gone by without any identification of the 16-year-old girl
who allegedly made the calls. The man she identified as her
"husband," Dale Barlow, 50, has denied wrongdoing. The Texas Rangers
visited him recently, but he has not been arrested in the case.
Investigation into the false-report allegations is ongoing, said Tom
Vinger, spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety,
downplaying somewhat the significance of the same person's arrest on
separate misdemeanor false-reporting charges.
"If we knew that (she made the March 29-30 phone calls), we would
have filed an arrest warrant for her," Vinger said. "People can read
in what they want to read."
As news of that arrest and possible involvement in the case was
reported Friday, CPS officials backed off their insistence that the
girl would be found.
In a media briefing immediately after the two-day custody hearing
Friday, CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner used Sarah more as a symbol
than as a person.
"I do believe that Sarah exists," she said.
"There were many Sarahs. Just because perhaps someone else placed
that phone call doesn't change our involvement.
"What we feel we found was systematic abuse of children."
------------------------------------
WHY AREN'T THE TRADITIONAL MORMONS...
PISSED????I mean I know they dont agree with the other group...but c'mon !!!!
I would think they would be up in arms over this....
I'd say maybe 5% of the LDS church members I know are up in arms
The other 95% compliantly follow the leadership of the church in denouncing everything relating to the so-called splinter groups. The LDS Church is so hysterical about other churches being called Mormon that they actually have claimed there is no such thing as fundamentalist Mormons, even though about 50,000 people call themselves that. It would be like the Catholic Church in 1600 publicly proclaiming, "there is no such thing as Lutherans! And even if there is, they're not Christians, only we are!"
Because of this, the church's only response to this has been to issue three media interviews explaining that the FLDS is different than the LDS. No offer of humanitarian aid. No suggestion that members of the LDS church open their homes as foster homes for these children (this would be the least traumatic, due to many shared customs, values and history); nothing other than "they have nothing to do with us whatsoever".
As for being up in arms and worried about the whole violation of religious and other constitutional rights issues....the LDS church is in bed with the government. That's the only way to say it. They are friends with the government, and would never do anything to endanger that relationship. I can understand why, as it was not always that way. From 1830 to the early 1900s, the government was always after them. The feds dissolved the church as a legal entity and confiscated all its property at one point. Now, after a tumultuous history, since about 100 years ago, peace has reined between the church and the government.
How quickly they have forgotten their own history. Yes, they should be rushing to defend the Constitution (which the LDS scriptures say is an inspired document!) but they won't.
I'm LDS
and I know that the LDS church is too embeded with the government. It all started with Brigham Young who allowed utah to become a state. Even though the FLDS people which are human too have had their rights taken away and trampled on, the LDS church will not defend them because it might make them look bad. But what would Christ do?
If you're a member of the LDS church and you don't want to pay your taxes you could get excommunicated or disfellowshiped (this is just one case I heard). But I can tell you from my own experience being a member of the LDS church, I am disfellowshiped for not wanting a State Marriage License and instead wanting a private (Common Law) Marriage. It doesn't end here either, I comformed and got a marriage license and was still disfellowshiped simply because I did not want to change my Libertarian views. Yep my stake pres, wanted me to admit that my views were wrong but I could not turn away from correct principles for him, I just know that he will be held accountable for his judgments.
Well to get back to your question "Why aren't main stream Mormons pissed?" I imagine there are few of them who are pissed like myself but we as LDS members need to be careful to open our mouths about defending the FLDS church's rights because we could get ex'ed. not kidding at all.
Sorry to hear about that bro.
What keeps you in the church, then? Is your wife disfellowshipped, too?
I'd take that disfellowship, frame the letter, and proudly search out greener spiritual pastures for me and my family.
There is no way the church should be disfellowshipping anyone over such trivial matters.
Your disfellowshipment was unjust and I know you will not be held accountable for it, but others will.
Carry on, my friend, and do good and love your neighbor as yourself, and let the dead bury the dead.
CHILD POACHING
Knock Knock
" we're from the government.....and we're just here to help "
IT'S NO JOKE
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
This is so insane.... I swear I am curious how many would ...
actually get in a vehicle drive with weapons and force the children back to their parents... this is the beginning of the next civil war.... Even if no one answers this post.....
or lets put it another way if this were your children what would you do....
Waco lite
Now you know why the Davidians fought back. And you see what happened to them. You cannot fight our government with guns unless you are ready to die fighting. After all, Satan does rule this world and look who's on top.
so not one of you would even post an answer???
the silence is deafening.....
I responded to the last time you asked this question
No I am not willing to take up arms against a government that has hundreds of thousands more troops and bigger guns than I could ever dream of having. It is foolish, stupid, and sure to end up in getting you and your entire family killed. No, I am not so interested in making a point that I add my wives and kids names to the long list of patriots who have died trying to fight the system.
Ron Paul advocates a peaceful revolution, and it is the only kind that will ever work. We should be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Outwit the beast, but you can never out gun them. Don't even try. You will lose every time. EVERY TIME. No, I have not the slightest desire or inclination to take up arms against the beast.
THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE
I wanted to see where people stand on this issue. So we continue to fight legally/through the polls etc...regardless of how bad they violate our rights? (I'm assuming that you mean yes to this statement)
I do agree that dying with a bullet does no good for anyone...I just wonder if there is a breaking point for people....where they say screw the system lets fight.....
.
.
Do you want people to post on the internet that...
...they'd commit a crime?
Coke County
Coke County Courthouse
Robert Lee, TX 76945
51st District Court
Judge Barbara Walther
Phone: 325-659-6571
http://www.co.coke.tx.us/...
how about???
a CONSTITUTION BOMB! Ideas? Lots of good past listings for pocket constitutions. Maybe major shipment to that renegade TX judge would make a difference?
I just happen to have handy several links for these :)
Pocket Constitutions from various sources -- some also include the Declaration of Independence and other documents:
From ConstitutionFacts.com
From The National Center of Constitutional Studies
From the National Constitution Center
From the Cato Institute
These range in price from 50 cents to $5.00, so look around and see which ones fit your price range and best serve your needs.
Read the Time Line:
Here's some snippets:
Continued raiding at Ranch.
Ongoing searches and seizures. More families being taken from the Ranch.
April 5, 2008 8:30:00 PM EDT
Continued searching and plundering at the Ran
Anniversary of our Savior's birth. Government officials searching all day. Taking families all day. Plundering all day. By nightfall all mothers and children gone, lonely and heartsick.
April 6, 2008 12:00:00 AM EDT
A sick baby treated while at the Pavilion.
A baby girl with a fever is given a syringe filled with medicine. Afterwards the baby screams for several hours. The mother says, "Something was in that syringe." She walks to the medical unit (an RV at the back of the building}, wondering what they had given her. She is told they had been rinsing out the syringes with cold water.
April 6, 2008 8:00:00 AM EDT
Events at Fort Concho, phones confiscated.
Officer announces he is here to gather all our cell phones. When asked for an explanation he says it was for safety and security reasons.
April 6, 2008 8:00:00 PM EDT
'New' FBI search warrant.
FBI come with a 'new' search warrant for all financial records. Confiscating computers and files, etc. Everyone under 'house' arrest -- no walking away from homes permitted. Every home violated again as the FBI go through everything. Records gathered and taken.
April 8, 2008 8:00:00 AM EDT
Heart-broken three-year-old..
A three-year-old girl cries aloud, long and hard for approximately one and a half hours until she is hoarse and falls asleep. She keeps crying out her mother's name. Her mother was gone to an out-of-state appointment when the raid happened, and has been trying to get into the shelters where her children are, but has not been able to yet. 11:00 pm The little three-year-old is coughing hard and wheezing badly. CPS is notified and they have decided to send her to the hospital on an ambulance.
April 9, 2008 9:00:00 PM EDT
Mother and baby taken in the night.
CPS workers enter shelter #1 with flashlights. They walk through the rows of cots, waking several sleeping children and adults. The workers explain that they are looking for a certain lady. This lady, age 19, has been accused of lying about her age. She has a little baby. They find her and wake her up, saying, "You need to come with us for some questioning." By this time an older mother wakes up and comes over where they are. This experienced mother asks if the questioning can wait until morning. The CPS workers firmly answer, "No! We need to do it right now." The older mother offers to watch the baby while the baby's mother is gone. The CPS workers refuse to let her and keep saying, "Come on. Get your shoes on quick. We need to go. You will be back in just a little while." The mother of the baby whispers to the other mother, "They won't let me come back if they take me." Just then another experienced mother walks up and tries to convince the CPS workers that it is too late, and wonders if they can do it in the morning. The workers will not listen, and they usher the young mother with her baby out the door. About a half hour later the CPS workers come back and haul the baby crib the baby had been sleeping in, out. The young mother never comes back to this shelter. First thing in the morning a CPS worker comes and gathers some of the baby's clothes. Late in the afternoon some mothers and children are outside waving to loved ones in other shelters and they see the young mother with her baby far across the parade grounds, just her and her baby. She is standing by a little cabin and waving. Her dress and jacket are recognized.
April 12, 2008 11:30:00 PM EDT
Mothers and children seperated.
CPS bus supervisors, having taken lists of names, call the mothers names and the number of children going with them, and escort them off the bus. Mothers who have children under the age of five are allowed to take all their children and get off the bus at the Coliseum. No caretakers are allowed to go along with the mothers to help. Mothers who do not have children under the age of five, but children five and older, stay on the bus and are driven a short distance to the Pavilion. All caretakers are also told to stay on the bus and get off at the Pavilion. Inside the Pavilion there are many CPS workers, male and female. Workers call the group of mothers and children to order, then a spokeswoman reads the names of mothers, caretakers, and number of children who go with each one again. Mothers and caretakers are told to walk a short distance away from the children. Some children try to follow their mothers and caretakers, but are stopped by CPS workers. Any mothers who object are escorted by CPS workers. Once the group is sorted, the CPS worker in charge tells the mothers and caretakers to step into the next room where, "...we will give you some information." Some children start to cry and hold on to their mothers. CPS workers take hold of children and say, "We will watch you. Your mom is just going to step into the other room. We will watch you until she gets back." Mothers reluctantly walk into the next room where the entire wall is lined with policemen, firearms handy. The mothers and caretakers are called to order as the spokeswomen reads the "information". The mothers and caretakers are told that the state has custody of their children. The adults are given two choices: to go back to the Ranch, or to go to the Family Alliance Shelter. There is not a choice to stay with the children. One caretaker asked what the shelter was, and if it would mean they could be closer to the children. A CPS worker explained that a person could go to the Family Alliance Shelter if they were afraid of anything happening to them at the Ranch. The majority of mothers and caretakers chose to go by bus to the Ranch.
April 14, 2008 2:35:00 PM EDT
No Search Warrant Video: http://www.captivefldschi...
HOLY CRAP!!!!
THIS IS HUGE NEWS!!!!!
I JUST CALLED MY NEWS STATION !!!! WHICH IS OVER 50 YEARS OLD AND COVERS AN AREA OF 8-30 MILLION PEOPLE!!!!
PEOPLE CALL ALL THE NEWS NETWORKS THIS IS FRONT PAGE STUFF!!!!
IF SOMEONE CAN LIST CNN, NBC, WASHINGTON POST, DRUDGE, ABC,NEW YORK TIMES, ETC. ON HERE WE CAN FLOOD THEM WITH OUT OUTRAGE AND THE TRUTH!!!!!!!
Ten Foot Cattle Prod
I wouldn't even touch this subject with one.
I'll just stick to 9/11 and Campaign Materials.
We can all say what needs to be done, but who here led by example today?
This.
Quick quote from the Salt Lake Tribune article posted by alaskaron below:
"What this is, is when I take possession of a child, I take
personal responsibility for that child, and I'd like to know where
these children are," said Walther this afternoon.
This.
I = judge; State; CPS
take = remove from another, regardless of whether given or granted
possession = ownership; control; domination; actual holding, either with or without rights of ownership
This says it, doesn't it. The children -- and evidently, the adults -- are nothing more than chattel.
You unlocked the code, fanofwalt
Unfortunately, the sheeple will never realize just how brazen this judge is being. They will accept this as being part of what civilized society does, just as the masses in Germany were lulled to believe Hitler was their friend.
The Raid was Unconstitutional
Period. If they ate snakes and drank the blood of pigs. The women there are free to got. Any person who will throw criticism should simply offer shelter to the women they care so deeply by standing with signs in front of the complex on public land/roads. To have the government do your dirty work is more sick than a man who has 100 13 year old wives.
"Walls are stronger than the men that defend them."
Ghengis Khan
The answer to your question NO
It doesn't change my perception.....
So now they (FDLS women interviewed) say "well just because --just because we broke like one or two laws--
Isn't that what CPS was doing there in the first place-Enforcing the law to families who blatantly refused to cooperate any other way.
It is the whole heirarchy I have the most problem with. There is a group of men who believe they are gods among God and can be the equivilent of him. They have total control of their "families." They are afterall just hard working men down on the ranch. They prop up their heiroom with religous fear and brainwash women into sacrificing their daughters for the men's, neighbors and the like, sexual fulfillment to become gods. So really it stops right there for me. My personal individual freedom to reject that anyone any age be subject to thoughtout, targeted, planned, organized, cropped and harvested child molestation is no more alarming than the events that did take place and no more understandable. That brings me to conclude for myself that I consider the false caller a martyr as such that she was found to be studied in the subject, is alittle strange- did she take a risk or just do something strange. But I have met people that have expressed this kind of behavior and they are not just wierd, strange, criminal, she had something to say and the end result is that there are found to be five girls underage having babies. Unfortunately we do live in a country where the state has taken it upon themselves (by our voting them the ability to do so) to assure equal rights to ALL ,Isn't that what it is supposed to be.
Can you have it both ways? Believe that a human being has inalienable rights right from conception and not believe that these children abused, indoctrinated for future use don't have the right to an intervention? Either this was a staged test for the state like we've heard about in the news lately of Marshall Law training, or it was one of the best thought out interventions in the history of the government running our lives.
My faith and life experience tells me those children will be just fine. Their parents stubborn unwillingness to cooperate put them in this situation. They have the right to do so but they are paying a consequence--just or injust we may all someday have to make the same decisions. I think we can take something positive from this. It has certainly set the tone for the social and State response to our indivual liberties, having made ourselves delve alittle deeper and be honest with where an issue makes us stand and I would bet most of us are weary from all we are seeing. As this revolution rises we will be seeing each other for all that we are. The principle is so simple and that one man can spend his whole life saying the same prinicpled thing -well I want to be more like him! We want government out of lives but that can and will never happen. Really what we want is them to accept us for who we are and find us vital, peaceful, loving and cooperative. able to care for our own. They have clearly demonstrated that too will never happen without risk of brutal strong armed force.
Long Live the Revolution, God help us all.
Five underage girls?
"she had something to say and the end result is that there are found to be five girls underage having babies. "
Which "underage" "girls" do you speak of? The 17 year olds who are married and pregnant? We know from media reports that at least one of these women is a 17 year old woman married to a 17 year old man, and they are monogamists. We do not know anything about the other 17 year old pregnant women, other than the fact that IT IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW FOR A 17 YEAR OLD WOMAN TO GET MARRIED. SO WHAT IS THE CRIME HERE, Moonbaby?
God help us all, is right, if you cannot even see how obvious the deceit and persecution is in this case. So five 17 year old girls are married and having children. Whoop-de-freaking-do. I have news for you. 17 year olds are allowed to get married! The law says so! THE LAW SAYS SO! Did you follow that , Moon? The law says 17 year olds can be married. So why are 437 children being illegally detained because five 17 year old women are married and pregnant?
I have sought to weed out
the information as much as many others with an interest in this story. But ofcourse I can see the discourse becoming very defensive and there must be a scapegoat and the one who asks the most questions is the easy target. So be it as it is human nature to seek out a scapegoat. But it aint me. There are many people who feel as I do. Who can see through the smokescreen of "rights violations" of the poor people in the compound. Nevermind they practice of sex with minors as reported by people that were actually there and actually suffered at the hands of these men before they escaped. They are just bitter castouts that have a vendetta against the group. Nevermind the boys that are now The Lost Boys, that were left to die in the desert-let me guess that never happened and those children lied too. Nervermind asking yourself if those 17 year olds you so valiently defend were wanting those babies and the sex it took to get them as a matter of their own personal choice or if they were perscuaded as it is their duty. But you would probably argue with that too.
The problem the world may have with this is the child sex. It is there, It is a fact and to deny it makes the whole matter of the other facts in the case, for my little simple mind at leaste, a consequence. What you ask of me is to believe this crap. They breed little girls for their sexual pleasure and live a peaceful life doing so. To me the rights of these adults came into question when a call of abuse came into play. But constantly with your post you seek to draw attention away with the "look, look, they were wrong about that too" well, they will be found out as will us all, and the world will roll on.
The way you judge thousands of people you don't know shows
what is in your heart. Judge not lest ye be judged.
There are far easier way to get all the sex you want than building a religious community, marrying and taking care of people, having large families, etc.
No one in their right mind would take on a plural lifestyle just for sex. Maybe you do not know it, but there are people all over who are willing to have sex with anything that breathes. It is not hard to find cheap or free, easy sex. Polygamist Mormons are not in it for the sex, trust me.
We judge others by what is in our own hearts. This shows me that you are a person for whom sex is all important and that you cannot see beyond that aspect of the matter, so you project that onto others, and assume that this is their motive. I will assure you it is not. But you will not believe me, so why do I even bother responding?
Go to any church. Go to any social club, most any family, most any employer. Every group has bitter ex-members who cannot let go of things and make life miserable for the remaining members of the group.
No children have been left to die in the desert. There were no pregnant underage girls at the ranch. The women who "escaped" are bitter ex-wives who are miserable and want company. They blame theirs or other individual's shortcomings on an entire population of 50,000+ Mormon polygamists, which no reasonable, rational person would do.
But right now you are ignoring everything I say, and it is not making a damn bit of difference, so I guess I am a fool for even wasting my time. Sigh.
Polygamist Mormons are not in it for the sex, trust me.
Trust you? I don not know you butI am not ignoring you. When you make statements like that above I can't help but see that you are not interested in anyone's opinion if it doesn't line up to yours. I am open to letting the events unfold and will be relieved when I am proven wrong. I want to believe that these people don't live as I see and aren't having sex with someone without their consent I realize I am talking to people on this forum that will do anything to convense me I am wrong, I have not tried to change anyone, I have merely demonstrated how I am filtering the news and the events that happened to these people. If anything they are really lucky nothing was found-oh right thats because nothing was there to be found- okay I get it I see what your saying and that just makes it that. I have been redeemed thanks for saving me. I could have gone on forever not seeing the folly of my interpretations. Sex is not important to me like person freedom is. At any age we are protected by a right to it. and as someone aptly pointed out on a previous post, that right is a design of human intelligence that "allows" those freedoms one to another. Do polygomist men honor a child's right to choose not to engage in a cerimonial spiritual marriage union of a sexual nature up to and including penetration? No one wants to ask it and no one wants to answer it therfore 416 kids sit in a shitty reality.
Are you dense or illiterate?
You claim to not ignore, and yet you do. I've already addressed how marriages happen in this group.
Young women, when they feel they are ready to be married, go to the priesthood leader and put their name in, so to speak. They can do this at any age they feel they are ready to marry. It could be 16, it could be 23. And yes, I suppose it could even be 14 or 15 back when the law allowed such. So far, no force at all.
They are asked if they have anyone in mind they would like to marry. (Did you catch that part, Moon? The young woman literally gets to pick her mate, if she so pleases! And some do! It is her choice!) If she says there is a man she would like to marry, and that man is not known to be unsuitable (e.g., not a wife beater, dead beat, etc.), the wedding happens, voluntarily, assuming the man consents.
Now, if the young woman does not have a man in mind when she goes to the priesthood saying she is ready to marry, then she is offered Mr. So-and-So as a possibility. She can accept or reject Mr. So-and-So at this time. If she accepts, then a wedding occurs, at which time she is still free to say NO, and stop the whole thing.
Through the entire process, the young woman has complete control of her circumstances. She chooses to put herself forward as a candidate for an arranged marriage; she chooses whether or not she has someone in mind to marry; she chooses whether to accept or reject the priesthood's arranged husband candidate; she chooses to say yes or no during the ceremony.
So, I ask you, Moon, what part of that description above has anything to do with your statement that "Do polygomist men honor a child's right to choose not to engage in a cerimonial spiritual marriage union of a sexual nature up to and including penetration? No one wants to ask it and no one wants to answer it..." I have answered it, at least six times on here.
relax
I know your close to this issue. I think you are too eager to defend the topic. FDLS is new to the "outside" world. They have done a good job of isolating themselves and they are not the norm. Is it not okay to look at them as they have invited us to do and draw our own conclusions? Resorting to name calling is just not necessary when having a discussion. I don't hate you. I don't wish anything bad toward you or the people involved. I just have a different view and interpretation than you. I thought we were adults and freedom loving enough that we could have differing views and feel safe about it, especially safe amongst each other about voicing our views. Thankyou for the info, however, not once did you mention whether or not love was involved in the marriage process, how sad. I used this thread and others to solidify my stance on the issue and appreciate everyones input. For those of you who allowed me the freedom of discovery, thankyou! Its good to know where you stand on an issue and you should never apologize for doing what it takes to get there.
Hi Moon
I apologize for my momentary frustration. It is somewhat distressing to reply to the same question numerous times, and feel like you are not even reading the answers I painstakingly type out in response to your honest inquiries. If I thought you were a person of ill will, I would not waste my time with your posts.
I wanted to address the issue of love, since you brought it up. Like in most societies that favor arranged marriages, the couples tend to engage in courtship and fall in love following the wedding. This is often a months long process, but it is one that is known to have existed and apparently worked for millions of years. We cannot assume that romantic love is some sort of 20th century invention. However, as a basis for marriage, romantic love is usually shaky. Witness the divorce rate, and of those couples (monog) who stay married, the large number of them who remain married only for the tax or financial benefits or for convenience, the romantic love having long faded away.
One thing you may find interesting is that in the FLDS culture, they generally do not consummate a marriage right away, as in the wedding night. The couple waits till that point where they have found love to consummate their marriage. Many FLDS marriages are consummated months after the wedding, when both man and woman are ready to "seal the deal", so to speak.
Thanks for your good questions, and for listening.
perhaps I too
am frustrated. I too think the CPS situation is terrible. I am someone who likes to sort out the facts and not just go with the mainstream concensus. I understood everything you ever said and see that you have a good handle on the facts. I , like you, honor myself with what is true for me. Contrary to what some may percieve in the tone of my thread posts I am NOT being judgemental but using my judgement. I did make comments as to the group being a cult because that is what I understand it to be. Anything not mainstream these days is being labled as something. However, on the flip side I am finding it interesting that the mainstream is somehow the enemy and the "outside" somehow doesn't have any "normal" families or concepts of rightousness left in them. This is just not true and I understand statements like these to be generalizations and justifications. My compassion goes out to these people but my reason can't comprehend how it could have turned out any different. Hoax caller or not there was a call. I personally didn't/don't expect a different reaction for the gov't and like I said before they were just looking for something to allow them to go in and bust up these partakers of freedom. Vengence is Mine saith the Lord, and the state will recieve its just dues. Oh, and RumorMill and Loonsnipers--not a good match. HE HE
Due process be damned as
Due process be damned as long as somebody's personal moral set is enforced. 437 children stolen. And how many of the parents were convicted of any crime at all?
How can anybody be okay with this? How can a Ron Paul supporter be in favor of "group justice" on any level? This is sickening and wrong, regardless of what you may think of the FLDS.
I am not in favor nor am okay, just resolved
but when emotions are being vented for the world to view one might have to ask themselves what they believe. Too many what if's and hypothetical scenario comments have made feel as though I should actually understand what it is you are asking me to. I have really tried to wrap my head around this and all I can do is choose to stick to the facts as they unfold and keep the pontificating to a bare minimal. I have had something similar occur in my life. I have had to concede on a very personal level some responsibility in the matter. I believe if more people understood that they could get the hell out of the way of change and let it happen in their life. anything wrong with that? It doesn't have to be equal to be fair.
The facts are simple.
The facts are simple. Regardless of people's beliefs... regardless of the way they lead their lives... regardless of whether or not it is believed they've broken the law... they are -all- entitled to their rights and due process. If members of this group need to be arrested and put in jail, it is important that that be done... but -only- in a manner that respects the rights of the people and the rule of law. That is the problem here. The means is blatantly illegal and sets a terrible precedent. Every one of us should be upset about this because it establishes that there are no bounds when it comes to how law enforcement conducts itself. None at all.
.
.
"That brings me to conclude
"That brings me to conclude for myself that I consider the false caller a martyr..."
IMO, she's an attention-seeking crackpot with a record of filing false complaints with authorities.
"she had something to say and the end result is that there are found to be five girls underage having babies."
Hardly justification for the wholesale disruption of this entire group. Obviously ... child molestation is abhorrent. No question. But if you start criminalizing entire communities for the *alleged* actions of a few, then we're ALL in trouble.
Texas-sized crap
The really interesting thing is that the CPS head's original claim that they were rescuing "numerous pregnant 13 year olds" has morphed into---OMG, get ready for this---"five under-18 year olds."
Those were her words. Five under-18 year olds. Now, it is to her advantage to make these people look as bad as possible. if these "under 18s" were 13, 14, 15, or 16, you can darn well bet she would have made a point of it while testifying before the judge. But she said five under-18s.
I conclude this means most likely some 17 year olds. We know from the news that one of those 17 year olds is married to a 17 year old husband, and they are monogamous!.
That leaves 4 possible 17 year olds with husbands older than they are. But guess what? The LAW in Texas allows 16 year olds to marry. So, any 16 or 17 year old who is pregnant is within her legal rights to be married.
Summary: the judge, CPS, and the entire state of Texas is full of Texas-sized crap.
To me it says
she is a crackpot but with perhaps the agenda to find something, anything against the Mormon Church Anything that would stop Mitt Romney who is a Republican and connected with the LDS church.
He had suspended/ended his campaign well before this came all into the open, or was something already known about that phonecall before it became public knowledge.
None of it, absolutely none of it justifies what the 'justice system' is putting these families through. Innocent until proven guilty seems to have bitten the dust.
This is FLDS NOT LDS - big difference
and nothing to do with Mitt Romney.
FLDS have clung to original LDS philosophy with one HUGE difference - they have their own prophet and maintain original polygamist ways.
So, they separated from LDS and are now Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints.
LDS obeys the law of one wife for over 100 years not.
thankyou
I needed to laugh out loud. and I agree they are suffering the consequences of their actions, too.
Last I checked....
we have 47 sexual offenders in our town of 30,000.
Since we all live in the same place and the town's economy depends on us, I would guess we are a compound.
So if you go by thier reasoning, I'm shocked that our town hasn't been surrounded and our children taken away for thier safety.
Oop.. guess that would be bad.. we're not all of a religion that isn't mainstream.
So we're not a group that would work, politically.
Blah.
now
thats just plainly ignorant and I can't comment otherwise