WOW, this is sad how confused some people are... shows the power of lies. Is this why Dr. Paul didn't do better?
Posted May 6th, 2008 by aVoiceof Reason.
output
This is just a small conversation I had with one very very confused Iraq War supporter...
Me:
I don't think anyone is protesting soldiers... I oppose the Iraq war. It's illegal/unconstitutional, was based on lies, etc. I don't think our soldiers should have to police the world.
Person:
Get a clue, the war is not illegal, it is just unpopular, there is a difference. Using your inane logic, anything I don't agree with I should call illegal. You're right The United States should not have to police the world, but if we don't stand up for freedom, who will? The corrupt UN? The European Union? Maybe you?
Me:
Actually, the war is illegal because it was never authorized by Congress. Only Congress has the power to declare war. But they never officially declared war, they just defaulted the power to the president because they didn't want to be held responsible. Also, that way the war could technically go on and on, because it was never actually declared. When one congressman finally did introduce a resolution to declare war it was shot down and no one voted for it.
Person:
Congress "defaulted the power to the president," by doing this they approved of this war without being the ones to blame if it turned out badly. All things considered, it has not been nearly as bad as it could have been, at least up to this point it should be considered a success. As for a Congressman being "shot down" when he tried to introduce a declaration of war, Congress lost their ability to declare war when they passed on having an up or down vote when they initially had the chance.
Me:
Well, I think freedom will spread better if we set a good example and encourage it. I think it doesn't make sense to go put guns to people's heads and "free" them. I only believe in defensive war, Iraq was never a threat. There were never weapons of mass destruction (except the ones we gave to Saddam when he was at war with Iran). Iran had no real military, and there were no connections to the terrorists. So, how many men are you going to let die?
Person:
Excellent question. But your points are easy to make since as they say, "hindsight is 20/20. I believe that it is both just and prudent for our country to error on the side of security and eliminate a potential threat like that one. Just because no large stockpiles of WMDs have been found, it does not mean that they were never there. Either way, it is a little naive to say that Iraq and Iran were not (and are not) a threat to that entire region, and to the world as a whole. The only thing we will get if we try hugs instead of guns, is a rusty knife to our neck as our head is being hacked off in the name of Allah.
Me:
If you sincerely believe that these countries hate us and pose a threat to us then you should ask yourself why. Is it because they're evil/muslim? No. It's called blow back. That's the CIA's term for the unintended consequences of American Foreign Policy. When our country supports dictators like we used to with Saddam, and like with the Shah of Iran, or when we bomb a country, or build a military base there, it pisses people off. o, if we want to keep ourselves safe, then we should not do the things that piss people off and make them want to attack us. Policing the world and interventionism are what cause the blow back, so we should stop policing the world and intervening in other affairs. You certainly wouldn't like it if China came and built a military base somewhere in the U.S. But that's what we do to other countries. The U.S. is not supposed to be an empire, but a republic. So, if things like the Iraq war don't make us safer, and in fact put us in more danger, why continue it? Our presence is actually helping the terrorists. The more people we piss off, the more recruits the terrorists have. No one over there is going to offer to blow themselves u without a reason. But if you blow up their home, or kill their family on accident, then they're not going to like you very much, and they'll probably side with those who oppose us.
Person:
It never ceases to amaze me how some people can defend these closed minded, restrictive, violent, people who would have no problem killing anyone who they believe to be an infidel. It is these same touchy feely solve every problem with a hug people, who would be the first to die under the rule of these "peaceful desert people." But don't worry, people like me are willing to stand up against them so you just keep on hoping and dreaming that if we would just show them more respect, treat them better, and bow down before their so-called "religion of peace," then we could all live together in harmony. No matter how much you want it to be true, your statements here are misguided at best. These are not the type of people who would respond well to hugs. In a perfect world, what you said would be true, but unfortunately our world is far from perfect. Militant Muslims attacked us, and if you remember OBL said that when he saw American soldiers being dragged down the streets of Mogadishu, and all we did is retreat, he knew that America had become soft and the Muslim world had a chance to defeat us.
Me:
I never said to bow down to them and I never said anything about their religion. You must be crazy, or else terribly brainwashed by all those lies. Look, I used to think the same thing, and I voted for Bush twice... but then I educated myself on the issues instead of just taking other peoples' word for it. If you support Iraq, why didn't you support the wars in Somalia, Kosovo?. Should we invade China? It's called blow back, if you think otherwise then you might as well say the CIA is wrong.
Meet Chalmers Johnson:
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Question.
What sex and age is this person? Did they ever wear the uniform?
My quess is male over 30 who never served. AKA Chickenhawk.
The brain washing is
The brain washing is powerful. I fully supported Bush the first time and the second time I voted for an independent candidate. I was one of those flag waving, non-thinking Americans after 9/11. I knew of our connections to Saddam's government and them going off the dollar before the Iraq War and that raised doubts. Then I read the unPatriot Act and I'm like something is wrong here. This is not the republic we are supposed to have.
The brain washing is powerful and this country has been dumbed down. Even if they do disagree with you, you have planted seeds in their head when events turn for worse that might cause them to think.
My discussions about Ron Paul
are mostly to Christians, although some are to others. But the Christians agree with most of what I say, although they just can't get over the "But we have to support Israel, and that's why we have to stay in the war". Makes me want to tear my hair out and jump up and down and scream. They will agree it is not right to fight a war using money borrowed from China, or some other heathen nation, but they always go back to the above idiotic statement. By the way, a person yesterday was visiting with one of the above Christians, and while talking to him, I asked if he voted, and he said yes, and I mentioned Ron Paul and he had never heard of him, and so naturally I told him all about him. NEW CONVERT for Ron Paul!
Didn't the Jews...
crucify Christ?
Why do people take up for Israel so much?
The whole world bends to a nation the size of New Jersey. Sickening.
OMG!!!
I get the same thing! Only they dont realize that the bible warns us about the fake jews. A great percentage are not true blooded jews. They are gentiles just like us. No offense just a personal opinion.
Add this to your next discussion:
First understand that the Dollar is the World's reserve currency, by agreement. The World economies use the Dollar to purchase oil. This is what keeps our bankrupt country from collapsing into ruin, at the moment.
The real reason we invaded Iraq was because Saddam stopped taking the Dollar for payment for oil in the Fall of 2000. (There is a great video of a 60 minutes interview with the 1st Treasury Secretary, Paul O'Neil, where he discusses the 1st two security council meetings with Little George, in January 2001. Basically, the topic was how do we get Saddam?)
http://video.google.com/v...
The real reason we are about to bomb Iran, is because the Oil Bourse is up and running and Iran is not taking any Dollars for payment - Euro & Yen only.
The real reason Chavez is on our enemy list is because he is selling his oil in something other than Dollars. Not completely off the Dollar, though - I think.
This is not about terrorism. This is about PetroDollars and our bankrupt country. Terrorism, or Islamofascism, is the "new" Communism. The term is used to keep us brainwashed by fear. Pure propaganda.
If the oil producing nations stop accepting PetroDollars, our economy would collapse into immediate chaos. So would a lot of other nations who hold Dollars, like China & Japan.
Keep in mind, that every single war in human history has been about money and resources. There have been many justifications, such as religion and Communism, but these reasons were used to dupe people to "fight for the cause."
There is a good movie that may be online, but can be rented from NetFlix, called The Oil Factor. Rent this and loan it to your friend.
im very impressed
all we can do is try to wake people, in the end it is their choice to seek out the truth,,,,good try
Most people don't believe as
Most people don't believe as this person does. However, those are the views of the dwindling Republican base that voted for McCain.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
About the war power...
The constitution doesn't allow the congress to delegate the power to declare war to the executive branch. The fact that they are derelict in their duty doesn't make the war legal.
-jcr
Me: Your Masonic Masters Make Hand Signals
And you can't see them. The US Government is controlled by a criminal cabal. Just go back to sleep and let the patriots with brains sort it out.
"Walls are stronger than the men that defend them."
Ghengis Khan
HAHA! CLASSIC
"It never ceases to amaze me how some people can defend these closed minded, restrictive, violent, people who would have no problem killing anyone who they believe to be an infidel. It is these same touchy feely solve every problem with a hug people, who would be the first to die under the rule of these "peaceful desert people."
I argued with someone who said the reason we invaded Iraq is because "They invaded us first."
Can't argue with that logic....
And by that I mean you CAN'T argue with it because there is no logic and the person making the argument is not OPEN to logic.
--------------------------------------------------------
"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal
rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson
the part about abdicating war powers to the president
Fortune Favors the Bold
is accurate, the problem is that congress would need to amend the constitution to do it legally. the rest is nonsense. I hate how people conflate "we" with "the state"
Stuff like this makes me
Stuff like this makes me wish the U.S. were partitioned:
- Liberty-minded individuals go to the Northwest and live in freedom with minimal government and military for self defense ONLY.
- Crazy fascist warmongers can have their portion and go try to police the world. They will go broke in a couple years... They take the DC-NY east coast.
- Left-Liberals (semi-socialists) can move together and start a peaceful, if not foolish, commune in the Southwest.
- Native Americans get their land in the Lakota region and make lots of trade and defense pacts with the liberty-minded folks.
_________________________________
My liberty-minded home base of thought:
www.ponderthis.net
Hey wait a second
I like the sunshine here in Arizona and I really don't want to move up to where it rains all the time in Oregon and Washington! Please don't send any more left-liberals here, I'm for liberty! How about we just get back to the constitution and quit all this non-sense about dividing? Although I do agree with the Lakota's actions.
We are 50 times....its called 50 nation states....
thats what the republic is made of ....
One Shepherd..
Many sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep sheep
ba ba ba ba
wow, looks like an army of sheep :)