Why I'm against "Paulites against truthers"
Posted June 3rd, 2008 by docholladay
output
Ok, ok, ha, ha, ha. I'm not really AGAINST anyone's freedom of speech, thought, or expression, but to me the 9/11 issue has been effectively used by the neocons to divide the ranks. What's the old adage.... 'divide and conquer'? Well, it seems to be working to some degree in regard to the Paul campaign specifically and the Revolution in general.
I was on the fence for a while on the 9/11 issue, and even believed at first that 'truthers' were nuts, but after a year or so of objective and critical investigation I now will be the first to admit that I'm a 'truther' too. I know that Ron Paul has publicly stated that he doesn't believe that 9/11 was an inside job. He has also asked 'truthers' to refrain from implying that he supports the 'inside job' theory. That is his right and I understand why he takes that position. He HAS stated that he is in favor of a new OBJECTIVE investigation and subtly intimated that he doesn't buy the 'official' commission report, but ultimately what Ron Paul believes or doesn't beleive doesn't change the fact that a HUGE percentage of Ron Paul supporters believe that 9/11 was an inside job. In fact, truthers haven't turned away from Dr. Paul in spite of his public position, and are even some of his most devoted supporters. That speaks volumes.
What I don't understand (especially at this stage of his campaign) is this: the idea that just because someone questions the official 9/11 story that they are automatically deemed unfit to support Dr. Paul, and the message of freedom and liberty that he brings. That sounds like a neocon tactic to me, and we're seeing more and more of this B.S. as their house of cards is starting to fall apart. You see, "truthers" (with the exception of a few loose screws) are actually rational, intelligent, freedom loving, open minded, TRUTH seeking TRUTH supporting people. Ron Paul doesn't have to agree with everyone on every issue for his message of freedom and Constitutional government to be appealing. He speaks so much TRUTH that truthers and everyone else interested in liberty love and support him. I tell you this, if you took all the 'truther' support out of the Revolution, you'd be left with a hole as big as the Grand Canyon. I don't understand the whole 'paulites against truthers' idiocy. That'd be like me starting a site called "me against myself". Truther or non-truther, we all support the cause of freedom. In fact, I'd almost put money on the CFR or some other neocon cess pool organization being behind sites like "Paulitesagainsttruthers.com" We need to be stop bickering among ourselves and form a united, unstoppable entity that will remove the cancer from our government and return our country to what the founders intended. We also need to remember that it's NOT wrong to question the government's story. It's almost gotten to the point that the brainwashed masses view questioning the government as some sort of 'blasphemy', and I do mean in a religious sense. As J. Edgar Hoover said, "The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
Idealy, I hope that more and more Americans can move beyond the denial that plagues our nation, but if that can't happen, can we at LEAST agree that any and all support of Dr. Paul, the Constitution, freedom, and government accountability is vitally needed? Of course, I don't think that blasting people with 9/11 truth and calling them idiots if they don't agree is a good idea, and unfortunately some truthers do that, but as a whole truthers are just as interested and passionate (if not more so) as any other Paul supporters. Let freedom ring and let freedom of speech prevail!
Doc Holladay
http://www.myspace.com/do...
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Divide et conquer
I`ve never understood why the english translation of the latin "divide et impera" was "divide et conquer".
Shouldn`t it be: divide et rule (what is already conquered)?
Makes even more your point.
--------------------------------------
europe4ronpaul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)
Point
There are people who just like to argue.
They really aren't trying to make a point whatsoever except with the possibility, for themselves, of themselves. Thinking within themselves, that they know, exactly what, what is it that I actually know?
A comparison chart I'll say cause the actual word fails me at this time.Testing how they stand in the hierarchy.
We’re on you’re side.
Don’t be a crybaby. I think even the term “truther” is a little hokey. But at the same time, I honestly think the term “conspiracy theory” is reserved for the simple minded; use of that catch phrase is just an easy copout for those who simply want to remain conventional, in my opinion.
If you, however, are an individual who wants to be identified that way; good. At least you’re thinking. That’s what counts!
To tell you the truth, some evidence seems so undeniably strong… How in the world can people close their eyes to many things?
In the case of Ron Paul—I think he just wants to deal with what initially counts. That’s because he’s branded as “a nice old guy with good intentions, but goofy ideas.” He doesn’t want to worsen matters.
Neither am I necessarily all that anxious to actively spread the word about conspiracies. I can’t really figure out why, but most people seem very easily thown off the trail, so to speak. So I like to stick with issues of liberty on this site.
I think the anti-truther set just wants to stay with the issue at hand. People tend to get sidetracked, you know?
--Cliff, Sioux City, Iowa
I personally can't be worried about what other people think
But what I know for an absolute fact is that In my business ( construction ) I have to cut steel , I have to use acetylene which burns at over 2755 degrees concentrated at the torch. and inorder to cut just "ONE" structurallt reinforced "I" beam it takes me about 4 minutes to cut through it.
On Sept 11th some how miraculously 47 4 foot wide vertical reinforced structural steel core columns rising up 110 floors got cut into a bunch of small pieces in less than ten seconds before they hit the gorund.
Now you ask me ? Go buy an acetylene torch and try it yourself , It's the hardest building material used anywhere, then see how long it takes to cut through it?
Exactly. Thanks for such a
Exactly. Thanks for such a thoughtful post.
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
Bravo.
Now tell Forge, Billydee, Rhino, Minarchist, and Ironman77 what's up.
9/11 = Demolitoned buildings.
Demolitioned Buildings = Inside job.
Simple.
Good Post, Doc
I didn't believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories for a long time, but it's painfully obvious now that the government was involved. Whether they ignored it or planned it - to me - is somewhat irrelevant. Both are sins beyond forgiving, and what we're dealing with now remains unchanged. And after an extensive study into the matter, if you can't see that the government (at the very least) *allowed* the attacks to happen, then you're naive beyond repair.
I implore those who haven't seen 9/11 Press For Truth, to please, please, watch this, because it primarily focuses on the many holes in the 9/11 Commission Report - which is all you need to know that there is a cover-up.
As soon as I read "who funded the attacks is of little practical significance", it was over. The government is definitely involved. To what degree? Not sure. But they're involved, and we're suffering the consequences even today.
Thanks eagleflyhigh. You'll
Thanks eagleflyhigh. You'll see a lot of disinfo from two posers uh, I mean posters on this thread. Thanks for the good info. The scary part is that I don't really believe that these guys are 'naive beyond repair', they're aware of the situation, they just don't want others opening their minds to what's out there. They've hit a wall here on DP though and stick out like a hooker in a choir. Peace
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
There are alot of people that lie and get away with it.
Didn't mind watching that once more.
Here is your proof.....
Right from the horses mouth(George Bush).. "Now remember the offical story said that the planes bought down those buildings"...But here it is G.W.B proving that explosives was invovled..(Caught on tape people)
"Wake up and smell the lies"
Video # 1
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
Video #2 ("How to create an angry American")
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
* STOP READING *
Its a diversion.
Any Question not relating to HOW DO WE INFORM PPL ABOUT RON PAUL is use-less.
Worth-Less.
Delete this.
The answer: reason and logic
Yeah, stop reading. In fact, close your eyes too. Fold your arms. No, wait, stick your fingers in your ears. Even better. But keep on convincing yourself that 911 was an inside job, evolution is not science, we never put men on the moon, OJ is innocent, the cia killed jfk, and the sun rotates around the earth, which is flat. And whatever you do, don't start using evidence, facts, logic and reason to form your opinions. Yep. That's a great way to inform people about Ron Paul and the nutjobs that support him.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
What I would like to see happen
I would really like to see a 9/11 thread without DickyDee and MiniMouse interfering.
So what do think DickyCheese and MiniDick? Could we please have a thread of our own without you tarts coming in and repeating the same old crap all over again?
Thanks for the consideration.
I don't often do this, but....
I normally do not post comments unless I feel that it could use my input. Minarchist's objection to the lack "reason and logic" that 'truthers' employ in their analyses is not entirely unwarranted. He does have a point when he says that truthers generally do not put forth a "positive" theory of the events of 9/11, but there is a reason for this: they simply do not know.
What Minarchist is searching for, in essence, is a causative link between U.S governmental action and the events of 9/11. Since no documents have been furnished, no whistle-blowers have come forth and no direct causal evidence is available(this is debatable - see Steven Jones' new research), he made the seemingly rational decision to reject the idea of an inside-job.
He does not, however, disagree with the assertion that the collapse events (and most likely other anomalous events i.e put options, NORAD/FAA etc..) were largely improbable.
At this point, I must respectfully disagree with his conclusion. While lacking causal evidence to substantiate my claims, I (and other so-called 'truthers') do possess correlative evidence. Now I would love to elaborate further.... but I'm very lazy and this is all I feel like writing. If someone else *cough* would do the honours of presenting the kind of evidence I just talked about I would be much obliged. Minarchist, the evidence you're looking for can only brought about, if we're right, by an investigation with high security clearance and full subpoena power. Since the chance of this happening is very slim, all the "truth movement" can do is inform and ask for an investigation. Minarchist, even if we are right, you may never see the evidence that would convince you.
The entire US Military stood down that day
and the entire system "failed." That doesn't happen without direct Government involvement.
Good points, JayPee
Good points, JayPee, and thanks for paying attention.
I'm not asking for evidence, nor am I asking anyone to explain exactly what they believe happened.
I'm asking for someone, anyone, to SPECULATE about a theory that would explain the known and non-controversial evidence, and would be a less improbable explanation than the official explanation.
This reminds me of the OJ case. The official story was that OJ did it, of course. The "OJ truthers" picked apart individual facts here and there, but in the end the only alternative way all the evidence could be explained was to assume that not only was did somebody else commit the murders, but the police were so convinced that OJ did it that they planted evidence to make it look like he did. But at least they had an alternative theory. The "911 truthers" don't even have that.
Again, I'm not asking anyone to defend any theory or explanation in terms of it definitely being an explanation for what happened. I'm asking for someone to present and defend a theory that MIGHT be the explanation for what happened.
After all, the whole defense for the official explanation is that as improbable as it is, there is no conceivable alternative explanation that is any less improbable.
So that should be trivial to debunk - by presenting any theory that MIGHT have happened and accounts for all the known non-controversial evidence (and is less improbable than the official explanation).
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
It has to do with a failed oil pipeline deal
with the Taliban. The US gave the Taliban $250 million dollars in 2001.
Unocal Oil was driving the oil dead. Hamid Karzai, now president of Afghanistan, was a lead consultant for Unocal. We wanted to build oil pipelines.
Timeline
http://www.cooperativeres...
My "Truther" friends
Although I am not "A Truther" I adore your spirit!
You as, Ron Paul people, are not... freaks or kooks but, level headed thinker's, engineer's, professionals and passionate American's.
Find the truth, if it is there, I know you will. You have my support.
So long as Ron Paul and the rEVOLution has yours.
March on!
you said: "but ultimately
you said:
"but ultimately what Ron Paul believes or doesn't beleive doesn't change the fact that a HUGE percentage of Ron Paul supporters believe that 9/11 was an inside job."
That's right. The majority of Paul's supporters know 911 was an inside job. I respect Paul's political decision and discretion in answering the medias questions. I think he obviously does know the truth; he was on TV 20 years ago screaming about "George Bush and the CIA running dugs".
Yet you wouldn't see him shouting the same thing on TV today. Paul knows what's going on. Furthermore, who cares what some naysayer statist on the internet thinks of truthers?
"All men in power should be distrusted.." -James Madison
Oh, please
Right. Ron Paul's positions on legalizing drugs, ending the income tax, shutting down the Fed, allowing competing currencies, closing all foreign military bases, etc., are not too controversial to be expressed in public, but, saying he believes 911 might have been an inside job, that's being too honest.
You sound like the guys who claim that Ron Paul is a racist but he just can't express that racism in public.
Nutjobs.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
So Dr. Paul
knows it's an inside job, but is afraid to say it. Yeah right.
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
So, the government did it,
So, the government did it, and are just afraid to say it. Yeah right.
P.S. Paulers don't really trust Barr.
P.S.S. You are insulting the DPers intelligence every time you post your pointless responses and Barr Spam.
P.S.S.S. You and mini-me need to resign at neocon headquarters. You've failed in your mission.
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
So you're saying Paul is a coward and a liar
when he says he thinks that 9/11 was not an inside job.
Why are you supporting him then?
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
Watch for him on the Colbert Report Jun 4, and on the Glenn Beck Show Jun 5.
Come on guys! Put on your tinfoil hats!
The poster is just using a deceptive method of drawing your attention to the Paulites Against Truthers website, www.paulitesagainsttruthe... . AND, he's being paid to do it by the elites! The reason why it's difficult to detect what he's doing is because he's been trained by the CFR in psychological manipulation!
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
You can always tell when
You can always tell when BillyDee is outgunned. He never responds to evidence and when he can't keep up he starts getting 3rd grade on us. Wow, BillyDee, I'm so bored with you.....
Did you even read this earlier post or look at it? I never got a response other than blah blah blah tinfoil hat, blah blah blah....
Here it is again so you can have another chance:
Eyewitness reports, video of windows blowing out up and down the towers, and seismic readings of 'explosions' just before each of the towers fell. And that's just for starters. Thermite found in wreckage of towers. NORAD stand down. BBC reporter stating that bldg 7 had fallen 20 min or so before if fell. "Al-Qaida" might or might not have been the tip of the spear, but could not have accomplished all that without at LEAST our government's knowledge. How about Bldg 7? No plane even hit it, and it fell EXACTLY like a controlled demolition.
http://www.wtc7.net/video...
http://www.whatreallyhapp...
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
Were are you BillyDee?
I'm still waiting on a response.....
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
Dr. Paul says
if you care about him you will cease you 9/11 Truther rhetoric, because you harm his campaign: http://youtube.com/watch?...
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
Once again, you did not
Once again, you did not answer or offer rebuttal to ANYTHING I posted above.
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
Oh now we all get it
What would Dr. Paul do without you here watching out for him. Read the rest of your article. You are very selective of what words you like to quote and twist around. He also said it is a goal of Barrs to go after his supporters. You are a hypocrite to insinuate that you are protecting, concerned or supporting the RP campaign when you and your pals are trying (unsucessfully) to defuse it. As far as "truthers" go what is believed and said within this site and not used to connect him with any of our personal beliefs has nothing to do with anything. He is just sick and tired of the neocons trying to make it issue instead of bringing up the many important factors of his message. He has said it is always smart to question the government about everything and that is what we are doing. Too bad you don't do the same, as it seems you are getting all of your information and buying it from wikipedia or quotes from your candidate. You seem to be one who not only does not know anything but also does not care to know anything. It is just too much work to think for yourself instead of believing everything you are told.
Put on your 1 cent balloon condom and play porn star .
Once again Who are you going to believe?
and who are you going to listen to? Billy Dee?
Some guy that is a washed up "B movie" porn star( or names himself after one)? As he stated the other day.
Either way pretty pathetic.
Or are you going to listen to someone like Ted Anderson?
Former Bureau Chief of the the FBI and creator of "The Ron Paul Air Corps".
He donated over 30,000 dollars trying to get RP elected
Or maybe the HUNDREDS of other prominent Govt,CIA,FBI, Military,Engineers,firefighters,rescue workers,defense ministers,cabinet members,eye witnesses etc that have come forward.
Wake up folks,time is running short.
What do you mean?
My post is in all seriousness. I can't believe you don't see it. Put the tinfoil hat back on and you'll see what I'm trying to tell you.
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
A real Objectivist
would never engage in such sloganeering as 'tinfoil hats'
Your claims of Objectivism fall mightily flat
Go away
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
I never claimed to be an Objectivist
.
And I think you're wrong about that. Ayn Rand cast many insults. I could see here calling people tin foil hat wearers, very easily.
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
Hey SillyFlea
Does anyone have a can of pest or bug repelant to get rid of this parasite? We know what you are Silly Flea. We are use to your kind around here. Your not the first and you wont be the last. If you can live with it, so can I.
You're a liar and a collectivist.
Now GO AWAY
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
No, no
and, no.
--------
Dr. Paul says Barr is an ally (http://www.newsweek.com/i...)
and would do "a very good job" as president (http://www.youtube.com/wa...).
I have a new game for you, BillyDink
It's called hide-and-go-f**k-yourself.
You're it.
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
dang honey
i should know better than to drink coffee and read these posts, ive spit most of it on the screen...lol
It's a ploy
He posts this stuff and then tries to group all the truthers in to it, claiming that he is using reason and logic. It's a common tactic, but easy to see thru.
Why do you even...
Give these neo-con loving idiots the time of day?
I've seen so many threads like this where people argue all day long... and no one changes their mind...
It's just a waste of time.
Reason and logic are at stake
If we are to bring others to our cause through reason and logic, then we need to be practitioners of it ourselves.
As long as we remain beholden to emotion, hysteria, mysticism, and irrationality above reason and logic, our cause will remain small and insignificant.
We need to be able to explain what we believe, and why, with reason and logic, in order to convince others to join us. In this case, I'm asking the truthers among us to demonstrate their ability to explain what they believe, and why, with reason and logic, and they are failing miserably.
It's important for the success of this R3VOLUTION to prune out all the positions and beliefs that are not based on reason and logic, and cannot be explained with reason and logic, just as they were during the American Revolution, and the formation of the Constitution.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
I think that you're the one...
Who is going around and around in circles...
Asking why we believe what we believe...
And then telling us it's not correct...
Asking for proof...
And then not supplying any of your own.
Believe what you want to believe...
But don't ask me what I believe if you're just going to tell me I'm wrong.
Everyone on here has given you reasons why they think the way they think...
And then you ask for proof...
What proof do you have that we're even alive?
That we exist?
PROVE IT.
See... stupid isn't it?
I think you're addressing the wrong person
I've never asked anyone for proof of anything.
I'm asking for reason and logic, based on reasonable premises, of course.
I happen to think it's reasonable to assume that there is a live human being logged in as wpsmithjr, and not some Turing test candidate. I also assume that others here agree that is a reasonable assumption to make, and that no evidence supporting it needs to be presented in order to convince anyone. But if that's an assumption others do not accept, I'd like to know about it (thought I'm not sure what I'd do about it).
Perhaps you've got me confused with someone else, because I've never asked for proof.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
The you need to start using both
peace
You are the one failing miserably.
We are not claiming to have ALL THE ANSWERS. Most of us are simply calling for a new, fresh,independent investigation.
Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
AGAIN, I'm not asking for ALL the answers
The truther argument essentially is this: We do not believe the official explanation because it is too incredible, too improbable to believe.
Or, "We don't know what happened, but we "know" (or at least strongly suspect) the official explanation is not correct (because, again, it's too incredible/improbable to be true), and, so WE NEED ANOTHER INVESTIGATION!".
Fair enough?
I'm saying: It has been almost seven years. MILLIONS of people have looked at most of the key elements and NO ONE has been able to come up with an alternative explanation that is any less improbable than the official explanation even based on wild speculation that accounts for even all of the known and undisputed facts.
Truthers call for "another investigation". What for? All an investigation can do is uncover even MORE facts. An investigation cannot provide an explanation or theory for what happened. Only analysis can do that (something truthers seem to be incapable of doing). No one can even provide an hypothetical alternative explanation for the facts that we already know, and you want to add facts to that pile? Uncovering even more facts could not help anyone come up with an alternative explanation/theory that addresses all of the currently known facts. That explanation/theory would still have to be consistent with the facts currently already known, and we have plenty already to support an alternative theory, if one was sufficiently plausible to even be conjured (which it obviously isn't, well, obvious to anyone with at least a room temp IQ).
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
Exactly...
None of us have said we know exactly what happened, or why, or who was behind it. We just don't believe we're being told the whole truth. In fact, we KNOW FOR A FACT we aren't being told the whole truth because the government's investigation didn't even mention Building 7.
We just want the truth. And you (Minarchist) want to belittle us for it.
You sir, are a loser with nothing better to do than to sit around arguing with people... asking for their opinioins... and then telling them they don't know what they're talking about.
Why don't you get a job?
I've been at my job all day...
You've been sitting here arguing with people who's mind you will not... and cannot change.
infighting will kill the
infighting will kill the movement quicker then anything! I Have huge questions about 911.. but that was secondary to getting Ron Paul the nomination.. everyone needs to work for the common goal.. bringing up anything like 911 , that is so controversial shouldn't have been done.. instead people should have canvassed and ran for delegate! then when Ron Paul is president let the truth fall where it will!
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD
Without reason and logic, it will die anyway
Without reason and logic for the basis of what this movement stands for, it will die, or evolve into something entirely different (and essentially die) anyway.
We need to embrace reason and logic, and discard the hysteria and nonsense.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
I vote for you as pick for VP
LOVE IS THE ANSWER,UNDERSTANDING is the key!There are none so blind as those who will not see!