(Retitled) What is THE issue?
Posted June 17th, 2008 by wninja
output
The in-house bickering over where to cast our vote. It's ugly... it is and you know this to be true. Don't you? Don't assume it to be because I said so just answer the question...
Why is it we can't get Paul elected? Well idk? He said something about not running 3rd party, wasn't it? ...and why is that? Debate and Ballot access... er... something like that right???
So what is our everlasting problem election cycle after election cycle? Why can't we get representative government? Could it be that we live under 2 party rule?
We aren't getting representative government because we aren't representing ourselves. Instead we're feeding on each other when we should be demanding representation. We aren't demanding to be represented.
We need 3rd party debate access and a lot of it. The establishment does not want you to have more choices. They want to maintain their stranglehold. So by that standard all the 3rd party candidates are superior to the mainstream candidates.
All of these 3rd party candidates and their respective parties have fought hard for Ballot access. If want to be represented you have to demand Debate access. Not fight over who, but fight for all.
You should be wanting ALL these candidates in the debates because it isn't about the GOP anymore. Next time around Obama will be in the ring representing for the Democrats. Is there anybody else representing for the leftists?
We need to realize that many of these hard leftists will never see eye to eye with us and accept it even though we know we are right and what's right is right and we should not be afraid to defend the position against anyone.
No matter what the differences are at this point is irrelevant. Not all of these leftists can be totally happy with Obama and they should be represented by whom they choose. But they aren't given a choice either. So 3rd party debate access is a necessary function for representation for all.
What are the requirements for debate access? Well whatever it is now. It needs to be lower soon. Whatever we can do now to get as much 3rd party debate access as humanly possible is the most important thing we can do in the short term.
You never know. Nader or McKinney could swing a lot of leftist votes splintering the Democrats for a change. I say more power to them. Why? Because I'm not threatened by them in the least.
I say put them all up on the stage and see who stands out because now that we're talking about the lesser of 3 evils. The choice becomes clearer. We already know the answer because we know who the 2 greater evils are.
If once they are all on stage and Barr and Baldwin and even perhaps Nader start to sound the same on key issues that are opposite McCain or Obama. How can that be bad?
Right now we are looked at as a fringe element. But we know we are not. More voices on stage getting out the message is the only way to combat this kind of marginalization.
For those that are still sucking your thumbs and writing-in Paul. I agree with someone else's post that you are failing to make a choice and thus you deserve none. We have a powerful voting block here if it is not maximized then the establishment wins. The establishment will never sponsor Universal National Ballot Access. Why? It threatens their power hold. All of the 3rd party candidates are for National Ballot Access.
To those just NOT voting. That is not a protest. If you are honest about casting a protest vote you really have no alternative but to withhold your consent to be represented by any of the above candidates. You're only recourse is to vote NOTA. ("None of the Above")
Dr. Paul, Jessie Ventura, and Ralph Nader have all said the same thing and worked to rectify these pitfalls in the election system. It's high time we recognized that.
The wind0w is closing... there isn't much time.
WE NEED Lower debate access requirements! Now!
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how about some positive headlines?
the topic is right on, but the headline is the attention getter.
Okay, I changed the headline
Okay, I changed the headline but I still don't think it'll get much play.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Sure
Got any suggestions? I'll be happy to change it in light of people being in favor of civility.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
I agree, well said.
One more comment...Ron Paul must stay Republican to continue his powerful role in congress. Although, I wonder if his district in TX would be willng to switch to a third party if RP chose to do so.
If he's not the next POTUS
If he's not the next POTUS and we cannot keep McBama out and sneak him into a cabinet post like Treasury Secretary. Then he is best to stay where he is at and doing what he has always done. He has stated that he feels it best to work the Republican party back to it's core beliefs and I concur. He is the best guy to lead this endeavor.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
We are a fringe element.
I disagree with this statement by you: "Right now we are looked at as a fringe element. But we know we are not."
We are a fringe element. That's the whole problem. If the philosophy of maximized freedom and minimized government was mainstream, Dr. Paul would have won every primary. The fact, is most Americans want big nanny state government. That's the mainstream view. The point of Paul's campaign was to try to educate and convert people, so we can change the ideas of the mainstream to bring them over to our side. If the libertarian view was mainstream, there wouldn't be any need for a "campaign for liberty." If we don't recognize that, then we don't recognize our goal.
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Bob Barr Money Bombs July 2: www.BarrBomb.com and July 4 www.BobBarrMoneyBomb.com Help continue propagating the Revolutionary message of liberty. (9/11 "Truthers": Please don't support Barr. You'll hurt his public image and cost him support and votes, like you did to Dr. Paul).
We are and we aren't. I
We are and we aren't. I truly believe that most people feel the way we do or would be sympathetic to our ideals if they themselves could define their own. Isn't there a libertarian motto that goes something like, "Most people are libertarians, they just don't know it yet?"
I once saw a reporter on the street asking people if they thought the government should "care" about people. Not, "take care" of people although that's what some people assumed. None of these people were told anything else and the majority said basically, "Yeah the government should take care of people". Without being told that the government couldn't do it. Media subversion was taking place right before my vary eyes. I watched another casual passer-byer watching this all happen ask some of these same people if they were being taxed too much and every one of them said yes.
I am cofident that if people only knew the truth they would be on our side. So i guess while we are fringe, our ideas are not.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Things were going pretty good
until the rude and boorish Barr people showed up.
THE PATRIOT ACT.
How many times do we have to say that Bob Barr voted in favor of the Patriot Act?................... THE PATRIOT ACT!
I agree. this would make evident who stood where,
and with 40% of the people discontent with their choices, we might gain quite a few more liberty-minded people who want an alternative to McCain-Obama.
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips
More accurately
We live under one party rule.
No, it's two parties. But a
No, it's two parties. But a single agenda.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Does somebody need a hug?
Our nation’s premier ailment from my standpoint (I formed these simple ideas at age 16. My thoughts on the matter, the same today at almost 47, include the following:
First and foremost, the United States, having been profoundly blessed by God, has pretty much forsaken God. I don’t think I need to expound on this topic too much—God’s plan is very simple: if you accept Him, He’ll embrace you.
Second, since our lazy Congress lives to conveniently make money dominating our lives, this lawless group of educated idiots makes darn sure we are not allowed to use tangible assets to buy and sell. I feel with my very being that if the Federal Reserve were denied its abominable currency brokerage cartel, we’d be on our way to what would seem a permanent economic boom (because a buck would be worth a buck instead of a few pennies. additionally, monetary value would follow the market; in other words, we'd continually gain buying power [imagine that!!!]). This economic outlook isn’t just a result of conjecture. After the United States gained independence from England, Washington wrote to Jefferson that prostitution; robbery; and other occupations of penury and/or depravity had all but vanished since each member of the public finally possessed something real.
Big obstacles stand before us: 1) CONTROL… Most members of government would probably not want to see the public use the currency of a free market’s choice, as pursuant to the United States Constitution. Allowance of bankers’ continual lowering of the value of Federal Reserve Notes (debt vouchers) means that the government can justify (in its pathetic group of small minds) keeping the masses in shackles. 2) MONEY… Congressmen and Senators certainly don’t want to give that up. (Those are but two of our republic’s main impediments within the area of effectual economics.)
In conclusion I’d like to say that understanding the economy is simple if you don’t view it through the mud-covered glasses cheerfully provided by bankers, college professors, and the press.. Begin here—since every note in curculation is backed by a minus balance, the value of a dollar goes down every single time the Fed does absolutely anything to supposedly make the US economy “stronger.”
--Cliff, Sioux City, Iowa
Yes, yes I do need a hug...and your point?
I've been reading this over and over trying figure out how to respond. While I am agreeable for the most part I think you need to read the OP again. This thread was dedicated to the short term focus on what to do next and try to end the in-fighting or come up with a solution to end the in-fighting.
But evidently people would rather fight and push this thread down off the front page.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
We can't do any of those
We can't do any of those things unless we are driving the bus. Are you a PCP? Were you a delegate? Are you running for any office? The strategy is clear if we want change.
Demanding the corrupt politicians change things is like pissing in the wind. It isn't going to accomplish anything except you needing a shower.
We can site here and argue over who to vote for or we can go to work and take over our local precincts districts and states. We proved the strategy works in Idaho last weekend. If we just had a hundred more patriots to stand with us we could have swept our convention.
It's time to get in the game, we know what works more patriots just need to find the courage to step up!
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I'm not sure if those are
I'm not sure if those are rhetorical questions or not since I have stated my involvement more than few times. So to answer your questions and bump my thread.
No, I'm not a PCO or PCP as they may be called in your state. I applied twice and was dissed twice, but I'm sure my application is still on file. I was an alternate delegate and precinct chair. I'm not sure I'm cut out for office but considering it none the less. What I am doing for the time being however is seeking potential candidates in my area.
In my state the local GOP has maneuvered to bar RP republicans from running the on the states republican ticket. They won't even let you on the bus much less drive it. The only way I can see to compete with them is to create a 3rd party. A state party from which we can infiltrate state politics and take over state offices.
To the folks in Idaho I am super proud of your accomplishments. Almost makes me want to move there. But alas there is work to be done right where I'm at.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Great Idea!
It makes perfect sense to create a new third party directed towards individual states. This may solve everyone's main hang up of moral issues and religious beliefs. Trying to change the Republican Party is good, but we must have a second outlet when we are shut out. How about we call it "THE STATES RIGHTS PARTY?" We must face the facts that Americans have many differences of opinion, and states rights gives us the Freedom to choose Which state or states best fit our own personal beliefs. We need to de-federalize government and leave all regulations, public works, highways, and taxes up to each states own electorate. Each state will pay a flat tax of 2% to fund a strong non-interventionist national defense, house and senate, President. Their only job would be to make sure that each state and distric upholds the Constitution.
We can face facts all we
We can face facts all we want however if we do not consolidate our power and fractionalize into various groups we loose also. If we are being shut out somewhere it is because we don't have enough to stand together which means we have work to do in those areas. We need to adjust strategy be more stealth and recruit more people. I have to do this in my area. It is tempting to throw up my hands and go where I'll be accepted like the LP or CP but that does nothing to accomplish my goal.
I have simply resolved if they shut me out I will recruit enough people that they cannot do so eventually. I'll keep showing up to the meetings and be a thorn in their side and get to know people. I have already met folks on the committee who are allies but not known to the leadership as such.
If you get to know folks you will find some allies eventually. Just keep showing up and become a regular face don't make waves if you don't have to, pick your battles and work your way in but never give up.
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I find the American Patriot
I find the American Patriot Party to be a profound resource. But I do not think I want to start or join a chapter in my state. I admire them but they aren't very libertarian friendly IMHO and do not want to exclude them or there principles.
Without an outside goto if they win they expect you to follow suit. What is needed is a definite fall back. If we lose a contest in primary we can continue in general and they should know that. It is somewhat in line with an ultimatum and a "whip" if you will.
I've been turning ideas for a name too. Right now I'm liking "Bull Whip Party". The point is to whip any politician not doing what they are suppose to be doing. To endorse liberty candidates regardless of party affiliation. Though I don't really see endorsing a Democrat for any reason.
If there are small state 3rd parties functioning with the same agenda with the same platform then we can still have a coalition when called for. But really the only time you need to do that is for a presidential election which is far too late for a Bull Whip Party to be of any use right now anyway. So concentrate on the states. Your state, your party.
Now since you brought up national defense I found a little something for you.
James Madison who wrote the Constitution together the Bill of Rights:
Our stance is to increase the roll and preparedness of state organized State militias, County organized voluntary county militias and local citizen organized citizen militias in leadership and responsibility roles with the states; and joint roles in limited areas with the standing federal army.
This will reduce the federal burden and shift national protection role within the states, to the states and to the people.
This will not effect operations, as in international events the chain of command will be structured as it is now to protect the entire United States, but would place safeguards as to the intent which is to protect state powers.
To give an example, the state national guard (organized state and county militias) would return to control by each of the states as was first created for. It worked before, it will work again.
So our stance is to strengthen, not to weaken.
IDK about you, but I like it.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
The questions were
The questions were rhetorical. ;-)
You can run for office as a republican whether they like it or not. Precinct committee person or chair is usually an elected position also. Unless it's different in your state they can't prevent you from getting on the ballot for it or any other office.
This is exactly what they want for you to do is join a 3rd party debating club so they can continue to do as they please with no real opposition.
I was the lone guy standing often in my delegation on roll call votes at our convention and I lost my PCP race also, they were going to make me an alternate PCP but we'll see what happens now since they know exactly where I stand now.
We have to keep recruiting and expanding etc. I am no politician either however the alternative is to continue to let these bastards make decisions that effect our lives more and more and run our country and state into the ground. and I don't know about you but I am damn sick and tired of it.
By the way thanks for stepping up to the plate in your state too! We will win some and loose some but the more that step up the sooner we will win the war.
-----
Please Visit New Freelanders
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We are all sick of it or we
We are all sick of it or we wouldn't be here.
At my county convention they were basically comparing anybody wanting to run but was not part of the entrenched state GOP to the likes of David Duke and they did it careful word play. If you weren't prepared for this sort of thing before hand it would sound all good. I mean who wants David Duke coming in a running on your platform right?
Essentially what they were trying to say is that Ron Paul and any RP republicans should be comparable to David Duke. Even if you get on their ticket they will torpedo you here.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Aren't you in King County?
Aren't you in King County? (Not an aggressive question)
Yes, i am. American Patriot
Yes, i am.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
The best that I think we can
hope for is the large numbers of people who realize that we are in big trouble.
The first order of business is to work on getting open and honest elections. This is a huge undertaking that everyone needs to get behind because it doesn't matter what party you are for if your vote doesn't count. We also realized our civil liberties are in jeopardy, again it doesn't matter what party you are with if our civil liberties are taken from us. A commitment to BE INVOLVED that means ACTION. If we want honest government then it has to start with us, run for office or work and help get honest people elected. Don't be fooled by people who talk the talk but actions tell their true intent.
There has to be a movement to get the lobbyists out of government and any officials caught should get prison sentences. These Lobbyists have literally stolen our country and reduced us to slaves. I guess that would be enough to keep a busy for the first few weeks. LOL
Consistent Elections
I think that the only way to consistently get real conservatives elected is by taking over the Republican party. We need the casual voters to win elections. There is a large percentage of the population that are casual voters and will always be casual voters. I don't think that 3rd party candidates will win on any consistent basis. Forget about the Presidency for now and focus on US Congress, US Senate and State elections. We had decent showings in several caucus states already after less than a year and a half. In two more years, we could win many elections with Real conservatives running as Republicans. This is the best way to do it. Occasionally, there will be good enough Independent and 3rd party candidates that will have a good shot at winning, but the standard should be the Republican party. Once we vote in enough Real Conservatives, this will be the NORM and the followers will think that this is the type of candidate that is normal for the Republican party to elect.
If the GOP allows you to run on their ticket...
I fully endorse retaking the GOP however many many casual voters have been very turned off by the GOP and will not vote Republican for any reason. Instead they'll migrate to the Dems. We simply cannot allow that to happen. We need to provide a place for these people to be represented.
The GOP in some states has maneuvered to block RP republicans from running on their tickets. So a take over in these areas is highly unlikely without 3rd party intervention.
As I see it. All the 3rd parties have minor platform discrepancies that keep them from being major players. The lack of 3rd party recognition is our fault. If we don't pressure elected officials and running candidates to define representative government and change the way elections are run. They will continue to run roughshot over us for the rest of our natural lives
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Excellent Point
Well Stated
Elephant in the Room
Congress and state gov't will not allow it... Revolution! The French did it and we did it once before... here we go again.
aipac is the elephant
casa6969 zionist/dual citizens of u.s.and israel control our country and that is the elephant in the room
Seems to me just another
Seems to me just another reason for the creation of a political whip.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
NO WE DON'T
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
No we don't what?
Please transcend the 3 word vocabulary.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Suck.
I think she meant suck. As in right now. I agree.
************
"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains,
oh... never mind. The signature field is just too damned short to continue this...
Well i titled the thread
Well i titled the thread this way because the bickering does suck. But also it's hard to title a thread in such a way that it stays prevalent and people actually read it. Nothing I have said here is new this is just the first time I've started a thread with this subject matter post-CFL. To be quite honest I'm still not convinced she read the post. The link she provided is really great. But i could post several DP links to threads that totally suck and get more input than far superior threads.
If i had titled the thread something closer to what the thread is really about it would get no play. It's sad really, I don't want to be negative. But honey does not attract flies here.
...I'm sorry about your sig. It looks like it would be a really good one if you could get it all in there.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Well said
We really do need a way to get as many presidential candidates in the debates...Maybe a large petition to all the major news outlets demanding such??
We need to devise some sort of plan...and need to be open to all ideas
Indeed and we need to stop
Indeed and we need to stop the in-house fighting and focus that energy on getting a grasp on media and force them to cover the 3rd parties. Remember it is about representative government and media misrepresentations are duly unpatriotic.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
You're forgetting about Independents
Ron Paul even wrote a bill trying to get Nader on the ballot and in the debates in 2004. He said political operatives from both gangster parties were hiring election lawers to stop Ralph from getting on ballots! C4L should not exclude those that believe third parties and Indies are the right way to go. It should be expanded and let those that wish to follow that path, do it. We need a plan B.
I meant 3rd parties to include Independants.
I know about the bill I recently posted the transcript of his address to the House on this issue.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Thank you!
I agree that this is exactly what we need. I'm tired of holding my nose and voting for the lesser of two or three evils, especially with the discontent in both major parties with their future nominees.
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips
Best post of the day.
I can't see that the Republicans or Democrats would be willing to let any competition into the political process, especially from candidates who are willing to answer questions honestly and debate tough issues. I believe the best we can hope for is a separate debate with the third party candidates. But would even that be televised for the uninformed voters?
Thank you
It matters not. We knew the revolution would not be televised. We have never had it so good with the infusion of the internet in the political arena. Is it enough? Well history isn't kind in that respect. At the end of the day the media just needs to know one thing and that is there is not representative government if they do not cover the issue.
Many television stations are privately owned, but have a national affiliate. Don't look to the major networks for coverage. Correspond directly to your local TV networks and keep adding pressure.
All we need is for one 3rd party candidate to make enough stink that they cannot be kept out of the spotlight long enough to get our point across. If they perpetrate marginalization we boycott bomb them like we have in the past.
The philosophic question of the day and every day until November is. What is representative government? They can't answer this question without addressing debate access, ballot access, and voter consent. This is the single issue we can corner both the mainstream candidates and the media on. It's not a partisan issue. It's not even a bi-partisan issue. It's a non partisan issue. It is a human issue. It's a patriotic issue. It is the issue.
They don't want this to get national coverage and that is why it needs to be. Keep pushing for debate access for everybody and everybody not entrenched with in the establishment will come to our banner.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
I agree
www.dvds4delegates.com the newest and possibly the greatest weapon the Revolution now possesses.
but how the hell are we gonna buy a news station? That is the only way, we need our own. Keep up the great work.
Do you know FreePress.net?
FreePress.net is a national, nonpartisan organization working to reform the media. Through education, organizing and advocacy, they promote diverse and independent media ownership, strong public media, and universal access to communications.
http://www.stopbigmedia.c...
http://www.stopbigmedia.c... is a link I found on Freepress.net
We need a consolidated list of media links and media tools. We need to grow these entities and help them help us.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
Tog2476, Did you miss or ignore the infowars money bomb?
There was a money for obtaining a dish network channel.
I couldn't agree more with you ninja. Although I am beginning to think that efforts toward secession might be more productive at this point
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"My role in the revolution is to wake up the lemmings of this country, who sit back and accept the pablum the media feeds them"
Jesse Ventura
Ventura/Paul 2008
http://www.gopetition.com...
I think I donated to it.
www.dvds4delegates.com the newest and possibly the greatest weapon the Revolution now possesses.
I don't remember. I have been sending out donations like it is my job. I cannot keep track anymore. Keep up the great work.
I'm certainly not against
I'm certainly not against planning secession as a contingency. But it should be written into our party platform when we reach that bridge. I wanted to start talking about the new party platform but shelved it for the time being in hopes of getting a consensus on this issue first.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...
IDK but that is a private
IDK but that is a private enterprise that know little about. There are people with in the movement who are in the media business or have media projects. We need to look to those people and promote their media projects. Only when those projects blossom do they seem to be a viable revenue earner to investors. With this demand comes leverage and with that leverage can we get a foot in the door of mainstream media.
American Patriot Party - http://www.oregonpatriotp...
Voters for none of the above - http://nota.org/
National Ballot Access - http://www.directdemocrac...