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Curious-What are investors doing

since the stock market appears to be very manipulated. I am just learning about the market but even as an onlooker it appears obvious to me that this is not a natural flow. Maybe I am wrong which is very likely. I noticed things were not right when they kept saying inflation was at 2 percent. LOL I thought that was REALLY funny. Then when they stopped putting out reports that would have told how things were going. I only started learning about the market and observing in the last year or so. I am very curious about people who make their living trying to make investments knowing that someone is pulling the strings. How do investors feel about what is happening to the stock market? I had noticed a real push to invest global could this just be leading investors on to a plan to further the NWO. Has the market always been manipulated or was there ever a time when it was a matter of supply and demand? Thanks, for any insight you can give.
Peace

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buying puts on Brokerages...

short them all...they have gotten there last bailout from us. the federal reserve bailed them out and to pay for it the fed robbed our money's value by printing trillions more dollars.

time for the fall...

prying their office windows open

on Wall Street.

Sad but true.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Bad Day

I am a small time investor of my own money. I was never duped into putting money into an index fund. Do you remember the DOW was at 14000 in Oct. I am not sure when the DOW was this low, inflation adjusted. Sept 06 without inflation I do know.

I look for small companies under a dollar that are growing and offer something a little different than everyone else. But in a huge sector that needs new ideas.

Also look at junior mining companies. Many are scams out there claiming everything under the sun. Good ones are sitting on multimillion or billion properties. It is only a matter of time before they see real value in their ground.

REPLY to FreeRonPaul. Why people think we can save

wealth for a very long time like long enough to retire? This is my question. Don't you think it's strange? I think most things that we produce lose value over time. So, let's say if there was no money, how do you expect to produce a large quantity of something and save for a long time to retire? I would think it's impossible. You are especially screwed if you are a farmer or a fisherman because what they produce don't last for a long time.

But, with money, I think people automatically assume that you can save wealth for a long time. To me, this is very strange.

The way I look at this is that money is a claim check for a part of the economy as a system that continously produce wealth, therefore, by owning a part of the economy you might be able to preserve wealth. It's kind of like stock certificate. But, at the same time, owning a part of the economy is a nice way of saying taking the fruits of someone else's labor in the economic system, in my opinion.

To me, the only way to justify this is if you put in extra to the economy. Then, when you later take something out of the economy, you can argue that you are just taking the extra that you put in earlier, therefore, you aren't really taking the fruits of someone else's labor.

To me, this is the concept of saving wealth and I think it can be expanded to a concept of investing.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

I see your point...

I see what you mean, but I can't agree.
When you buy stock in company XYZ, you are doing it on the hope that the stock will rise. This is selfish.
When XYZ issued the stock, they did it because they wanted capital to expand their business and have someone else take on the risk. This is selfish as well.

The economy is mutualistic. Not altruistic.

Every time I see one of you economic posts, I notice you are at odds with many of the people on the board. I can't decide if this is because you are seeing further, or not seeing far enough.

Good perspective on the idea of retirement. In hunter-gatherer times, no one retired. They simply died at age 30 when they were no longer useful. Money helped solve that problem by generalizing all trade in terms of a common denominator (the money). The fact that this happened opened up a new type of market: capital markets.

If you worked your whole life and saved your income, you would be a net producer in the economy until the day you retired. You traded your life for this generalized thing we call money. Assume that this is real (IE, debt-free) money.

On retirement, you spend that money back into the economy. And the next generation saves it away (hopefully).

Earning a return on an investment isn't amoral. It's getting paid for risk and the use of resources that ordinarily wouldn't be available to XYZ. Interest isn't inherently bad. In the case of the US, it has become cancerous, but there is a place for it.

Maybe look at it this way: without interest, the economy couldn't grow without a prohibitive amount of deflation. If the money supply is constant, more players would have to share a fixed-pool of money. And this would cause its own strains.

My Shelfari page

In some sense, you are

In some sense, you are correct, our fiat money is essentially a "claim check" on the current and future economy. But REAL money, gold and silver, is no such thing --- it is wealth itself. That is partly why our current system is so unjust and morally bankrupt.

Thanks anyway.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

What a jerk.

You ask for input yet blow-off akak when he gives you good advice.

Do you only want advice from those who live in your "fiat", cash-is-king world?

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

To be honest with you, I

To be honest with you, I really am confused with the way you are wording your point of view. I'm sorry, but I can't address your comments... I simply don't understand what you're saying. Sorry, GiB.... Can anyone help me out here?

No problem. Thanks.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

Thanks, to all the respones

a lot to learn. These are some very interesting times that I think if we survive would be interesting reading 20 years from now.

What are investors doing?

>>What are investors doing?
It will fall on a spectrum between Leaping for joy and leaping out of windows. Depending on how far sighted you are.

Or, if you work in the newsrooms of a major media outlet, the answer is "hallucinogenic drugs".

My Shelfari page

from end of may till August...is the summer swoon...

big time investors remove big money from the market and go on summer vacation for 3 months. this is of course after they have pillaged everything and anything they can, and have bilked billions of dollars out of tax payers and consumers, for their own million dollar bonus'. so while all of you work in the heat of the summer, they will be off to alaska, or in Cancun/Cosmel...having the times of their lives.

anyway...because they will pull major money out, or secure their postions for the summer...things "should" retreat in the markets for a bit...or go sideways.

as they wave goodbye, saying,"have a good summer working...slaves."

A suggestion. Do some basic

A suggestion. Do some basic research into the way markets work, and keep in mind the lessons learned from "Human Action" by Ludwig Von Mises.

What do you mean the market is manipulated?

By who?

Are you saying that economic reports manipulate the market?

Not sure what you're saying here.

I've been in the securities business as a professional trader.

**********
Bob Barr Money Bombs July 2: www.BarrBomb.com and July 4 www.BobBarrMoneyBomb.com Help continue propagating the Revolutionary message of liberty. (9/11 "Truthers": Please don't support Barr. You'll hurt his public image and cost him support and votes, like you did to Dr. Paul).

The President's Working Group on Financial Markets

or the "Plunge Protection Team", that's who.

So you're talking about Federal Reserve intervention

Ok. Well, even then the market still acts on supply and demand. If more money is injected into the system, the market adjusts to that. To actually "manipulate" the market is not really possible except in the very short term. Supply and demand is always going to rule in the end. If you can accurately forecast what the intervention is going to be, you can make money, so it's not a problem for traders but an opportunity.

*****************
Bob Barr Money Bombs July 2: www.BarrBomb.com and July 4 www.BobBarrMoneyBomb.com Help continue propagating the Revolutionary message of liberty. (9/11 "Truthers": Please don't support Barr. You'll hurt his public image and cost him support and votes, like you did to Dr. Paul).

Intervention/Manipulation -- call it what you will.

It's not a "market" AND it's been manipulated, more or less, since 1989.

Go ahead and trade this "opportunity", Sport, I'll be watching from the sidelines as you go down in flames. Ouch!

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Go down in flames?

What do you mean? Why do you wish me to lose money?

Are you saying the market is going to go down? That's an opportunity too. A trader can make money when the market goes up or down.

And of course it's a market. Just because there's intervention it doesn't mean it's not a market. The market responds to intervention as markets do. They're still markets.

************
Bob Barr Money Bombs July 2: www.BarrBomb.com and July 4 www.BobBarrMoneyBomb.com Help continue propagating the Revolutionary message of liberty. (9/11 "Truthers": Please don't support Barr. You'll hurt his public image and cost him support and votes, like you did to Dr. Paul).

I don't wish you to lose money. You just will.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Lisa

Trading is an activity that requires expertise for success and that expertise must be...in trading...not banking, accounting, real estate appraisal, statistics, economics nor any other endeavor.

The expertise, and thus any success, comes from hours and hours of study and practice coupled with getting the shit kicked out of you a few times just to hammer home that rules need to be obeyed.

Direction means nothing to a trader as a true trader "goes to work" in the markets and never seeks to hit home runs. Truth be told, and as I am predominately an options trader, I make much more money in a down market than in an up as things move faster when fear takes hold.

So, I expect to reap a bundle over the next two years!

**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **

I have no doubt you will melgesman.

My problem isn't with traders. It's with the PPT and the whole farce of the exchanges being "bastions" of free markets.

Some might not care just as long as they are on the "right side" of the trade but most Americans worked their asses off to have something to invest. Yet, they will probably lose it all because the market is rigged.

I know exactly how options work. My concern isn't for the trader. It's for my family and friends.
___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Questions:

I don't mean to ask you personal questions, but how many years have you been trading successfully? I ask because I have never met a successfull trader. Also, more importantly, don't you feel guilty for taking money for nothing, in other words, without producing any value? I always felt that there is no such thing as something for nothing and I'm thinking this might be the reason why I have never met a successfull trader. I mean I've met several that told me that he or she made so much money, but they were always talking about only their successful trades, but on the net they were braking even at the best. So, I don't know any successfull trader, but I don't know many traders to begin with, so I'm interested in your story. By the way, I'm not planning on trading.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

Traders (not Traitors)

By "trader" I'd have to assume you meant "day trader" (as opposed to a stock broker)...

You might be hanging around with the wrong crowd "GREED". I've met/known several day traders. Sometimes up, sometimes down, but at least they are able to make a living, and a pretty good one at that.

As for your comment, "Also, more importantly, don't you feel guilty for taking money for nothing, in other words, without producing any value?"...

Are you kidding me? It's capitalism at it's finest! You cannot really be a Republican or a Ron Paul Republican, or for that matter a Libertarian, without believing in free markets. Day trading and stock ownership are pure expressions of the market in action.

Hum..okay, but I'll believe it when I actually meet someone.

As for taking money by trading, I don't care if you do, but I just don't want to take money in that way. When I look back my life in the future, I don't want to say, I made a living by taking advantage of other people's mistakes. That is just not kind of life that I want to live. But, what you want to do is not my business. I was just wondering if these people would feel guilty or not. Whenever I can, I rather give than take.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

GreedisBad, I have to at

GreedisBad, I have to at least partially agree with you on this --- what, really, are these traders doing for society? What are they producing? Don't get me wrong, I realize it is part of free-market capitalism (such as we experience it), but nothing is being produced, these traders are not really DOING anything, are they, in the most fundamental sense?

But then I can turn around and ask myself, am I much better, hoping to not just save my wealth, but maybe gain, by holding gold and silver? Am I going off half-cocked here, or does anyone else see my point?

A short answer is no, you are not much better, in my view.

You are simply a long term trader, in my view.

But, before you think about all this (gaining wealth), you need to think what "saving wealth" really means. I'm not saying saving wealth is bad. I'm just saying let's think about this.

Why do people expect to be able to save enough wealth to, for example, retire someday? If you produce milk, it'll go bad soon or later. How do you expect to save enough wealth for a long time when most of what people produce don't last for a very long time? What does "saving wealth" really mean?

I think saving wealth is to claim the fruits of other people's labor as your own. This is the only way saved wealth can last for a long time, in my opinion.

If so, then under what circumstances do you have the right to claim the fruits of other people's laber as your own?

I thought everyone should be able to keep the fruits of his or her own labor. If so, then why can you or I claim the fruits of someone's labor?

Let me know what you think. Keep in mind. I'm asking questions. I'm not saying if saving wealth is good or bad.

My opinion is this. You cannot claim the fruits of other people's labor as your own. But, wait. I think there is a way to save your own wealth without claiming the fruits of someone else's labor. How about this? You provide your wealth without a fee to people who cannot produce his or her own wealth, but in turn, you ask them to provide you with equal amount of their wealth when they became capable of producing wealth and when you are no longer capable of producing your own wealth. In this way, you have saved your own welath, in my opinion.

This is basically why I think giving is important. As for gaining wealth without producing, how is it different from stealing? I want to avoid gaining wealth without producing. But, maybe you have some reasonable logic that I don't know at this point. If you do, let me know.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

Personally, I don't

Personally, I don't understand what you are saying...

"My opinion is this. You cannot claim the fruits of other people's labor as your own."

It was explained to me best in this way. We live in a system of "exchange". You agree to provide your labor (time or service) in exchange for something else (money, pigs, gold... whatever).

In the case of a day trader or stockbroker, the exchange is risk. They provide capital to the markets and in exchange, they may or may not make money. The risks can be high, but so can the rewards as long as good research and even a bit of luck goes in their favor.

Without these infusions of capital into US markets, our country becomes non-competitive with other global businesses.

I will reply at the top. It's getting too narrow.

"first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property" -Thomas Jefferson

Why would I?

I made a shitload of money, then when the market started getting choppy I got out. I'm not trading right now. That's part of successful trading, knowing when to get out of the game and when to get back in. I may not be in for awhile, actually, since I'll be starting law school in the fall.

***********
Bob Barr Money Bombs July 2: www.BarrBomb.com and July 4 www.BobBarrMoneyBomb.com Help continue propagating the Revolutionary message of liberty. (9/11 "Truthers": Please don't support Barr. You'll hurt his public image and cost him support and votes, like you did to Dr. Paul).

JUST what his country needs

JUST what his country needs ... another lawyer..

as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD

yeah

no shit.

Uh Oh Lisa you responded.

Uh Oh Lisa you responded. Duck incoming bird sh**

LOL! Yea, i could tell by the "tone" of his post I was going to

step in "something".

Read this today from a man named Chris Powell,:

"There are no markets anymore, just interventions."

I'd agree with that.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

I have some mining juniors but, other than that,

been out of the stock market for a while and have been the better for it.

What I do isn't important, however, if I were Stateside I'd be looking at buying mobile home parks and turning buildings into boarding houses.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Mobile home parks have been

Mobile home parks have been an insider cash cow for years. I've never been able to get my hands on one. Boarding houses now there's a thought.

How about

old abandoned motels? Could come in handy with all the people on the streets nowa days (I try not to be country, but I just cant help it) YEEEE HAWWW.

There are small ones around the place but they are usually

away from job centers so I tend to be a bit wary of them even though, on paper, they are fantastic.

I used to buy cheap mobile homes (after sweet-talking the park manager) and sell them back to people on three-year contracts. I'd buy one for $4000 and sell it an hour later for $1000 and the rest over three years at 12-13% -- big returns. People loved me and I loved the income. Easiest money I ever made. I learned my technique from the great Lonnie Scruggs. His courses are online now, I believe. I highly recommend them -- he's an old country guy and he's honest.

The downside are the "clientele". They often lie about their backgrounds and income. Truth be told, I preferred to sell to Mexicans. They pay on time and are no trouble for the most part.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Besides having our stash of

Besides having our stash of metals, my husband and I trade currencies for a living. We trade for ourselves and a few close friends and family. The thing I like about the currency market is that whichever way the dollar goes I can make money and I can make a better ROI (return on investment) than other investments. for instance so far this month I have made 10%. while that sounds outrageously untrue, others who trade currencies will vouch this is a realistic percentage. My husband and I have been trading for over 4 years and are very conservative. As a matter of fact we are so conservative our fellow trader friends find our method boring. I am telling you this so if you know someone who is a currency trader and they will show you their results (that's what we do with our friends) then perhaps you can put a little aside for them to trade. Do you have yours investments all in an IRA? That should be no problem since we trade our friend's IRA's ( or portions of them).I do want to say daughter4liberty that I hope you can do something besides keeping your $ in stocks. I could go on and on but I'll only bore you further.

Foreign currency trading

If you trade in IRA's, are you trading ETF's like FXE, FXF, FXA, etc?

If you made 10% so far this month, it's probably occasionally betting on the dollar against the Euro, but with Forex futures instead of ETF's.

What about the risk here:

http://www.telegraph.co.u...

No I don't trade EFT's. I

No I don't trade EFT's. I trade the spot market so my money is not locked up it is more liquid. For instance in my account I can withdraw $ any time and it goes directly into my bank account. No penalties (just a small transfer fee). Speaking only for myself the only difficulty I have monetarily is the $ loosing it's value. But many of us are in this boat and my outlook is the more FRN's I can increase in these accounts the more they'll have when things shift. It may not be enough to help but it certainly will not hurt. Because I do something call correlation trading I am always trading with or against the dollar.

I actually don't have a whole lot invested...what I really need

is a job then I'll see about an IRA. Thanks for the advice though!

If you're a Nevada delegate or know someone who is, click here!!
http://nevadagopconventio...
Historic moment at WA State Convention at minute 4 here!!
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
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Instead of a job, why not start your own business (or two)?

Buying and selling second-hand clothing and shoes. Do you sew? Open up a clothing repair business, etc, etc.

Think about what people will need in hard times and what skills are lacking.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Excellent advice

Excellent advice

UH! You wouldn't want me sewing! 2 things I hate, needle and

sticking a thread through it! LOL Although, I must admit that's an interesting idea you have! I was thinking more along the lines of web design but am not sure I know enough about it to start something on my own.

If you're a Nevada delegate or know someone who is, click here!!
http://nevadagopconventio...
Historic moment at WA State Convention at minute 4 here!!
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Convert a delegate here! www.dvds4delegates.com

Out of work web designers will be a dime a dozen.

Your reaction to sewing is what I would expect -- most people can't these days. We haven't needed to learn. That's why if you learn to do it, people will pay you. Learn how to repair clothes and the people will come. You can barter, accept cash or take a pre-65 coin.

Put a little add in your local Penny Saver paper or something similar -- "I buy 2nd hand clothes. (XXX) XXX-XXXX)" and see what happens? Try it for seven weeks and let the people tell you how much they want for things. Never be the first with an amount.

There are probably some serious yard sale hounds on the Daily Paul who could give you an idea what to buy clothes for. Don't forget the shoes. Yucky shoes today might be someone's miracle in months/years to come.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

I thought it was 63 and down

on the coins? Am I wrong?

1964

was the last year the dime, quarter and half dollar were 90% silver. The half dollar continued to be 40% silver in 65 on through (I believe) 69. After that, all U.S. coins were base metal. I would recommend going through your change though and looking for these older coins as they do surface from time to time. I also keep all Jefferson nickels as current melt value exceeds the face value of the coin. The same is true for Lincoln pennies minted 1982 and earlier as they were still 95% copper and are worth far more than face value. Some 1982 pennies are 97.5% zinc, however, but this is easy to determine. Just take a pocket knife and nick the edge a little to see if the copper color continues or if it is zinc underneath a copper coating.

"Curious-What are investors doing"

Getting divorced, filing bankruptcy, getting forclosed on, thinking about working until they are 75, and likely suffering from ulcers and uncontrollable bowel movements by now if they haven't already become full blown alcoholics or comitted suicide. I think other than that, 4 or 5 are making some money.