*UPDATED* Critical Reading for "Truthers"
Posted June 24th, 2008 by phoobaar
output
The Pentagon was not hit by a rocket/missile/UFO/etc.
It seems that all too often, the "truth" movement is afraid of actual truth, because if their hypothesis falls apart then they'll need a new hobby. Sadly for them, the search for truth has a well-established process, which does not involve wild conjecture and fragmented hearsay.
As a gesture of good will, I'd like to present the "truth" movement with a reading list. If you will take a few minutes to read all of the following, in order, your eyes will be open to the wonders of actual truth ("http://" removed from links to avoid truncation; please copy/paste into your address bar; links are in bold):
- Understand the scientific method, so that you will be able to detect when it is and is not being used:
teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html - Understand what a proper logical argument looks like, so that you will be able to detect when an argument is either unsound, or not valid, or both:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundness - Study the various logical fallacies, so that you will know when one is being used:
fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html - Understand Occam's razor, so that you will know when someone injects superfluous information into a theory: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
- Understand Hanlon's razor, so that you will know when to chalk something up to mere incompetence:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor - And finally, examine the following thorough debunking of the rocket myth (note: you NEED all the previous material under your belt, to avoid dismissing reason and logic offhand, in typical "truther" fashion -- please do not skip ahead to this link!):
iangoddard.net/pentagon.htm
Feel free to ask questions about proper argumentation and application of the scientific method.
(Note: this is not an argument about whether or not the government was complicit in 9/11. This is about the proper way to ask those questions without making yourself look like an abject fool.)
*UPDATE* The following video should be considered mandatory viewing for anyone who claims to be in search of the truth about anything: http://video.google.com/v...
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I agree with ducky
Yes the, "The 9/11 Ccommission Report, Ommissions and Distortions" by David Ray Griffin. is excellent and his "Debunking 911 Debunking" is flawless.
I think even phoobar and treg may actually see the light if they werent too damned lazy to actually read anything seriously.
911
why don't y'all read THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT, OMISSIONS AND DISTORTIONS by David Ray Griffin.
Bump!
bump!
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Goddard contradicts himself far too many times
The only "true" answer would have come from an open investigation immediately following the crash.
The real conspiracy lies in which the speed of identifying the "perpetrators" from a "plane" that was blown to smithereens. Some of which are still alive to this day.
Goddard need to read expert testimony, such as the pilots for 911 truth and their theory of impossible flight paths.
In fact if he wants to get really empirical with his evidence, he should then question his eyewitness testimony as just because a plane has AA marked on it, does that really mean that it was an American Airlines Passenger jet.
Last but not least I recommend that everybody watch the Dragon movie link that was posted in order to watch the biggest bunch of BS and doublespeak I have ever heard or seen.
LOL, are you saying that
LOL, are you saying that those things are not modern-day dragons? About the only one I can remember that was questionable was Omega fish oil, which I believe has studies to back it up, although I may indeed be mistaken on that. Everything else, I think, was pure quackery. He did a masterful job of exposing it in simple terms that even someone who believes that a rocket hit the Pentagon can understand.
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Liberty for Dummies
OMG
poobar I would bet that you never actually watched, "911 Ripple Effect" or "Improbable Collapse" and that you have not even flipped a page of David Griffin's, "Debunking 911 Debunking".
You are talking to educated people here, people from all walks of life, professionals from many fields. It is just tedious to have to re-answer your silly questions because they have been asked and answered MANY times on similar threads.
You are like a chimpanzee in a class of physicists. Until you actually watch those videos and read some books by Griffin, Jones etc... you will have no ammunition. So, go and arm yourself and then come back and ask some serious questions.
:-D
Hehe!
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Liberty for Dummies
you and Treg
.....stirring up the truthers......funny.....
"The first thing a man will do for his ideals is lie"
-Joseph A. Schumpeter
They make it so easy!
They make it so easy! :-D
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Liberty for Dummies
This is a pretty good article
on the pentagon crash.
Oops, here ya go
For myself, I don't know what I believe.
Thanks for the
Thanks for the link.
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Liberty for Dummies
The End
The most significant question? One of the most!
Will this knowledge of truth come forth before "the end"? The end of what? The end! Awe..just wonderin'.
... ... ...
And, UFO's don't exist.
Laugh, this is funny:
"It seems that all too often, the "truth" movement is afraid of actual truth, because if their hypothesis falls apart then they'll need a new hobby."
Truth is not a hobby moron, its a way of life and some would say, "the way of life".
For those who haven't considered it yet.
Shock and Awe started on Sept. 11, 2001.
Things are only impossible until they are not.
-- Jean Luc Picard
i like how
you guys get so defensive when someone even offers any idea which deviates from the whole "9/11 truth" conspiracy...haha, god forbid 9/11 truthers think i'm "not seeing the truth"...
how will i sleep at night...
I think....
phoobaar wants attention that he is getting from debating "9-II". If you want to stay asleep, stay asleep. I prefer to see and know the truth. Good night.
It doesn't matter if it was
It doesn't matter if it was a missle or a jet. The fact remains that the government won't let us see the dozens of video tapes that recorded the event. Ipso Facto! The Government was in on it.
Things are only impossible until they are not.
-- Jean Luc Picard
Ron Paul is down for another
Ron Paul is down for another investigation. That's all the truth movement wants. Get over yourself already.
I believe there
are enough questions surrounding 9-ll that there should be an investigation. I have no clue what happened that day so I have an open mind about it. I would not confirm or consider anything off the table. Our government has shown itself to be unworthy of our trust. If they blundered or caused 9-11 let's investigate because there are ???????????????????????????????????????????????????'s There are many theories to call anyone fools for their views is not only unkind but foolish. Until there is a true unbiased third party investigation I will remain a seeker of truth. Peace
Use Your Mind.. Just once...
2 Engines....6 Tonne each. Made of Titanium..
Just.. dissapear without any damage to not even one window ?
Or both fit perfectly behind each other going through a small hole ?
Sorry, but.. we deal with reality.
No 6 tonne engines hit the pentagon. That is patently clear with all the photo and video evidence. Not a scratch in the lawn.
Something hit the pentagon, but it wasn't a plane the size of a 767.
Please... use your mind.
Anyone interested in
Anyone interested in learning how to think critically (education which the majority of "truthers" are in desperate need of), should watch the video linked at the end of the original post.
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Liberty for Dummies
Ok, let's start (again) from the beginning...
... and use the method you're advocating.
Pretend that I'm new here, and I'll pretend that you're a clear spoken, forthright and honest fellow, "phoobaar".
Is there or is there not, a very large social controversy surrounding the most transformative event in modern history? In simple terms, such a question establishes whether or not you and I feel there is any purpose in bringing the scientific method to bear, AT ALL. If one of us does not FEEL that the subject is worthwhile for whatever reason... we shouldn't spend any effort on it. At least not you and I working together.
So, please answer with a simple "yes, there is a controversy" OR "no, there is not a controversy."
We'll continue after you and I establish each other's assessment of the significance of 9/11 in our current course of human interaction here on Earth.
I'll go first. I DO think that 9/11 is a horrendous controversy, and thus deserving of intensely scrupulous investigation.
Your turn.
I've made my position clear
I've made my position clear on numerous occasions. I find the official investigation to be reminiscent of Barney Fife or Roscoe P. Coltrane. It would be almost laughable, if it were not so serious.
That doesn't mean I believe that Bush fired a rocket at the Pentagon, no matter how perfect a do-over investigation could have been. It is simply, patently, absurd. And anyone suggesting it needs to be laughed out of the room if we are ever to have any hope of a deeper investigation.
Science does not suffer fools and kooks. The pseudo-science needs to be identified quickly and cast aside. The rocket-Pentagon myth is pseudo-science. Worse, it is simple hysteria.
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Liberty for Dummies
Why
...do you insist on ignoring sound logic and science and blindly swallowing the illogical and obvious bunk that the governments mainstream media propaganda machine spews out?
Come on phoobar, you keep bringing up the same BS but you have not done a spec of research. You are just being lazy. There are scores of scientists, physicists, architects, pilots, firemen, police, military personnel and many other intelligent people that have all but proven that the official story is bull shit. I don't know what evidence you need, I don't actually think you want to listen to, hear, or see anything that may disrupt your belief system. I know it is nice and cozy to believe in a benevolent mom and pop government but reality is much different and one hell of a lot meaner than that.
From your posts I know you are a pretty smart fella but you are also trapped in a make belief bubble that the MSM has created on behalf of the corporate controlled governments.
You do have a choice, remain asleep in dreamland with visions of sugar plums and other happy shit or wake up and smell the brimstone and sound the alarm.
Show me all these experts
Show me all these experts and professionals who say a rocket hit the Pentagon.
Go ahead, I'm waiting.
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Liberty for Dummies
Meticulous planning.
Once again let me see if you can bend over and let me stick a 757 up your 16 foot hole with out shearing off the wings. Better yet let's see one real clear concise video that without a doubt shows a 757 hitting the pentagon.
Your telling me the best they can do is 5 clips from a fisheyed camera that show nothing more than a little object for a split second and a fire ball.
There were cameras all over the goddamn place 157 plus angles and in case you didn't get the memo it's the fucking pentagon were are talking about. One of the most highly guarded structures on the planet.
I would love to see some one fly a plane into it. Shit the missle defense system would blow you out of the sky before you got within 5 miles of the place.
Nice language. Annie's
Nice language. Annie's right, you do sound about 12 or 13.
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Liberty for Dummies
What...... do you think
an attempt to annoy me by calling me a child is really gonna make me mad? In case you haven't figured it out your attempts to stop me from opening peoples minds is pitiful at best. You act like this is all a game of who's smarter by how stupid you think people are. Wrong site to pull that malarke phoobar. I know what's up cutie. As well as everyone else who views your attempt to muddy up the fact that parts of our government were complicit in staging the biggest false flag event the world has ever seen.
Your arguments are poor. You are shown to be a disinfo troll. Period.
I've been critical of the
I've been critical of the FedGov longer than you, most likely. And I have plenty of opinions of my own that are pretty extreme. But what you can't grasp is that a rocket didn't hit the Pentagon, and when you say one did, you muddy the waters and make a serious investigation LESS likely, not more.
You do indeed need to grow up and understand how reality works. Wishing it were different changes nothing. You have to act. And until you control the system, you must work within it. We are not in control, they are. It's their system, so we must operate within it in order to bring it down.
Get clued in to those truths.
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Liberty for Dummies
Critical Thinking
Is that really your point?
Are you just fixated on making sure that everyone knows you think a "rocket" is out of the question for its laugh-ability... (laughably, you're one of the only people using the word "rocket" as your jump-to line when the official jet line is challenged) and thus you brilliantly impress the point that seeing as there is EQUALLY scant evidence for a jetliner, that I can laugh at you too if you try and say so. Right?
Your evidence
does not prove it was not a bunker buster missle, in fact it proves it was not a 757!! Where are the holes from the engine impact???
Yeah,
A jumbo jet smashed thru 5 layers of reinforced walls to the leave a hole all the way thru to the center of the pentagon. Yeah, and you call us conspiracy theorists? Please. Look up REAL crash sites. The noses on planes disintegrate during impact, not to mention that these planes were in the air for over an hour, when IT IS STANDARD PROTOCOL TO SEND MILITARY INTERVENTION WHEN A PLANE GOES OFF COURSE FOR MORE THAN 2 MINUTES. Doesn't the pentagon have it's own missile defense system? These planes were allowed to penetrate the MOST heavily gaurded air space in US history? Gosh, I feel so safe now. What a waste of billions of tax dollars on NORAD. Absurd you say? The devil is in the details, my friend, and I am sure you know the details right? Camera's confiscated from EVERY angle of the pentagon. Only four poor quality frames released to the public. All altered. What's to hide? Let's SEE the plane. Science you say? Where's the science? Please show me the reconstruction of the crash site at the pentagon, wait a minute...that's right there wasn't one... Conspiracy theorist? Please.
this
this
HA HA! So funny I'm cryin'!
I think you addressing the wrong crowd. Try offering this advice to "official conspiracy theory" crowd instead. The ones who believe in 19 hijackers etc. Time and time again it is the official story proponents who refuse any scientific or rational discussion of facts. Many accomplished scientists have laid out tremendous work in the 9/11 truth field and to date there are no scientists or academicians who step up and debate them using scientific method, because they can't. There is no reason or research behind their assumptions. Any and all scientific data only lends credence to a different story than the one sold to us for the cost of our freedoms and many of our lives.
Amen
I shut the crap off as soon as the guy mentioned he believed 9/11 was an inside job. I figured out the posters intent. Buddy you came to the WRONG website, 99% of us KNOW what IS GOING ON. Once enlightened and awakened from our slumber....always awake. Sorry. So pack it up and spread your garbage somewhere else.
Common Sense
There have been numerous false flags throughout the history of the world; 9/11 is just another false flag. There will be more in the future, to be sure.
The Pentagon has recently admitted they engage in false flags:
http://www.newyorker.com/....
"The Pentagon consultant told me, “We’ve had wonderful results in the Horn of Africa with the use of surrogates and false flags."
Word search in the article to find the quote quickly.
Report on False Flags in America (must read!)
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
The "War on Terror" is a lie. Anyone with a brain knows that by now. The "War on The New World Order" is the war we should be fighting.
Watch this video if you are a late bloomer:
http://www.dailymotion.co...
This 9/11 video is NOT ALLOWED ON YOUTUBE. It has been repeatedly taken off and accounts have been closed.
My Position
"Somewhere within the grand cacophony of supposition and theory that swirls around us lies the truth. Sadly we are not destined to know it until such a time as a body of citizens, disconnected from the power structure and armed with punitive subpoena power is convened to investigate on our behalf. Until the day that our power is reclaimed from the vast self-serving bureaucracy that manipulates us, we will have to maneuver to protect ourselves from further machinations and subterfuge."
Melgesman
Interesting examination of footage:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **
Let's play see if you can find the 757
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Or better yet this.
http://www.pentagonstrike...
Hey poo poo bar. Pull ur head out ur ass. K. Thanks.
People and planes dont vaporize and leave behind unburnt books and office equipment.
And most importantly aluminum aircraft don't puncture three rings of the pentagon in a perfect punch hole.
Now a tomahawk missle well now that is another thing.
Critical thinking would involve me figuring out the most efficient way to pull your head out of your ass.
Hanlon's Razor
is nothing more than "pop philosophy", and has no foundation or bearing on anything scientific.
It's even referred to as an "adage".
Hanlon got the name for it attributed to him by submitting it in a contest for clever-sounding sayings.
I do not think it belongs on the OP's list for scientific method.
Regardless of its
Regardless of its background, I disagree with you as to its validity. It holds up exceptionally well. If two hypotheses both seem to explain an event, one suggesting a vastly complex and insidious plot, the other suggesting a series of clown-like blunders and ignorance, human history suggests quite strongly that the latter is more likely. The former does happen of course, but much more rarely, because it requires meticulous planning and flawless execution, whereas the latter actually requires a great deal of effort to avoid.
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Liberty for Dummies
Hey phoobaar
Let's see if you can bend over and let me stick 80 tons of aircraft up your 16 foot wide hole without shearing off the wings.
Now that would be some meticulous planning.
Oruval
Play nice with the kiddies....LOL.
Or blowing out the window
Or blowing out the window directly over hole.
I believe
that in your statement above about "complex plot vs clownlike blunders) you are mixing in Ockham's(Occam's) Razor, which refers to reducibility of complexity.
Hanlon's Razor is simply an attempt to apply a fallacious "rule of thumb" as to whether there is malicious motive or no motive(stupidity).
Determinable only by individual cases, as no sweeping generalizations of this sort are possible.
It would be utterly unscientific to just willy-nilly assign no motive in suspicion of criminal activity as a general "rule of thumb", simply because "ignorance and stupidity exist" so they therefore somehow "trump" any motive or likelihood thereof.
That's an absurdity.
I really can't agree with your take on this one.
.
You're entitled to that
You're entitled to that analysis, but you'd be wrong.
Read the razors again.
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Liberty for Dummies
No
I wouldn't be wrong.
Murphy's Law
BigT, that is in a similar vein with the near-universal misinterpretation of Murphy's Law, which states "If something can go wrong, it will". This is usually taken to mean that "if something can go wrong in any given situation, it will", when it really means "If something can go wrong, EVENTUALLY it will", but not necessarily every time.
I love it when people quote
I love it when people quote wikipedia. Because when I think truth, I think user edited, web-based encyclopedia.
I agree, actually. I'm a
I agree, actually. I'm a major critic of Wikipedia. But I figured those particular articles aren't likely to misrepresent anything, as the subjects are not controversial, but simply the structure of argumentation and two well-known Razors.
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Liberty for Dummies
Exactly where does Bush's testimony come in?
Him and Cheney had to testify together... "to see their body language... together" ...sounds pretty scientific!
Mike
"Fire Team for Freedom" and "Operation Daily Paul"
on revolutionbroadcasting.com
or visit www.mikeandjake.com
Here's an eyewitness account
scroll down to the last 4 paragraphs (although the first bit is funny).
http://www.lewrockwell.co...
For anyone *really interested*