The European Liberty thread
Posted June 25th, 2008 by Brit4RonPaul
output
I have opened this thread at the suggestion of Colognepaulist. All "brass tacks" issues relating to how Europeans can organise effectively with a Libertarian platform are on-topic.
Some questions occur to me:
Should EU libertarians belong to existing political parties? If so, which ones?
Are new political parties required?
Should EU libertarians seek to uphold or amend their existing national constitution?
If your country does not possess a clearly defined constitution (e.g. Britain) how should you proceed?
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
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Have leaders emerged? Someone like Ron Paul perhaps?
just a thought.
in Canada we have Connie Fogal
leader of the Canadian Action Party
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...
They are marginalized
by the press and the political establishment.
Peter Gauweiler, the conservative German MP from Munich who challenges the EU treaty at the Federal Constitutional Court http://www.peter-gauweile... gets hardly any adequate press coverage. I too was surprised to find out that he, as the only conservative MP, voted recently against a federal Bill that forces internet providers to save up data on email-traffic up to six month for the prosecution service. And he is an outspoken critic of "interventionism", the deployment of German armed forces for "peacekeeping missions" or for the "war on terror". As a succesful lawyer and with a strong support in his constituency he is neither dependent on the goodwill of the party hacks nor on a political career at all.
Personally I watch him with growing sympathy.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
In Britain, I think the answer is "no"
For those who say "David Davis", check out his voting record and see if you can find out what are his actual policies are. Good luck with that ;-)
As for the rest of Europe, I don't know...
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
It's interesting to see that
It's interesting to see that David Icke is running against him even if you can't stand Icke. The reason he's running against Davis is to expose his lies.
PS I've always loved your signature line!
This
This is a great thread. It gives you a feeling of a "libertarian europe". Libertarian republics in Europe.
A bump for liberty
www.dvds4delegates.com the newest and possibly the greatest weapon the Revolution now possesses.
anywhere it wants to grow.
The best would be
to work within existing parties, say the "centre rightwing" and "libertarian parties" and work towards changing them from within. In the UK one can work within the Conservative, Liberal-Democrats and the Libertarian parties
(http://lpuk.org).
In Germany within the CDU and the FDP for instance etc etc.
If in the US they can managed to do away with the Fed and do away with a fiat currency, e.g. commodity backed currency, then the rest of the world will also follow in due course. One could also try it in smaller and effective countries and if the influence and performance is good, it wills et an example for other countries to copy. The EU countries are bound, but this initiative could come from a country like Russia or China or ME countries for instance.
why?
Why do you think "it would be best" to work within the existing parties? You can see that the libertarian party has existed for many years in the US and has remained very much a fringe movement. The Ron Paul movement within the Republican party shows every sign of being successfully marginalized as well. It has only done as well as it has due to the existence of a spectacular candidate---which historically speaking we can almost never count on.
In light of these honest evaluations of progress so far working within existing parties, the suggestion that the US might be able to adopt a sound currency is, I think, rather fantastic.
No one has responded to my posts below. Perhaps they find them to only offer fantasy as well. However, I will add a bit to them here. Another thing that should be rethought, in terms of new constitutions, is citizenship and voting. Probably birthright citizenship and universal suffrage are two things that should be set aside with some fairly restrictive requirements attached to those privileges (as opposed to rights). As far as the direction of those restrictions, something in the direction of having a definite connection to the land of the country, e.g., owning enough of it and successfully providing for ones family from it, is probably in the right direction.
Farmer,
I haven't responded to your posts yet, because you touch some real issues, that are not to be adressed casually. But I will come back to them.
Regarding working within existing parties I am basically of your opinion. But I'm of a different opinion concerning the Ron Paul movement within the GOP. It may be one of the rare opinions really to change politics by changing a political party (or as Ron Paul would say "restore the old values"). It seems to be not just Ron Paul, but many people that are now beginning to work within the party in the same direction. And that may really have an. Maybe I'am looking through rose coloured glasses from the other side of the ocean, but I guess thereis a lot in what Samuel Adams said:
“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds” So as an US-citizen I would really start to work within the GOP, support like-minded candidates, run for office, working on the party-platform ... Of course the establishment tries to marginalize the Ron Paul movement. But they are on the loosing side.
I think that's one of the rare occasions when it really makes sense to work within a political party.
But I don't see any opportunity like that in Europe or in Germany, though.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
We can hope.
What you describe in the Republican party is certainly a possibility, and it will be an excellent first step. Without a broader based awakening, however, I find it difficult to envision a significant and lasting change. Many people at the beginning (well, beginning for me, which was really something like the middle of the Ron Paul presidential campaign) were hoping for a revolution of the type associated with Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. With all due respect, the results of that were rather meager. Reagan outspent his predecessors by a large margin, and while I would not criticize the apparent blow to communism/socialism, this borrowing/spending certainly set (or continued) an unacceptable precedent.
My impression is that, both in Europe and America, there are simply too few people who have any idea what self-reliance and true independence from government are all about. Now they just have no idea; the possibilities have never occurred to them. In the end, it could be that there will still be a large number of people who reject those ideals. I'm hoping, however, that the ideas can get out there and spark a true broad based appreciation for a different way of life. There is a chance, I think, because of the many practical advantages of this point of view coupled with an innate human affinity for freedom. If this happens through a party, then that's great. (And I do do some work through the Republican party here in the US---while holding my nose.)
For the long term, however, there must be some influential force that rises above party affinity. The founders recognized this. For example, they originally chose president and vice president without regard to party affiliation---the assumption being, I think, that if party affiliation became important enough that those in the executive branch had to be of one party, then party affinity would have encroached on the welfare of the republic. Of course, that is exactly what happened.
I'm probably rambling on too long, but let me say it another way. It was originally expected that the general population (and those in the government in particular) would have some higher values in common which superseded party . That didn't last very long, and those higher values were perhaps not exhaustively and definitively specified. Perhaps now is the time to contemplate what those values might be. We have become such a diverse population, that perhaps holding such common values is impossible. There are certainly obstacles before us. I find it encouraging, however, that many seem to be finding common ground in vague terms of liberty and also that I personally tend to be able to find common ground with many people who violently disagree with me---at least to the point that they can respect my point of view. When we can put a hundred or so Ron Pauls in the US congress, then I will become really optimistic!
A moral quest
Refering to, as you call it "common values", I agree that this "movement" is not only about politics, but may be even more about ethics and morality: How should the constitution of a society/nation be organized that it it ensured, I can life in this society as a moral person.
We are really hitting issues of ancient greek philosophy here. The socialist/welfare-state answer is: it is has to be taken care of the basic needs of every citizen, before one can expect them to act in an ethical way. This is the dominant view in Europe even in most conservative or liberal circles. Most people support this view in the best intentions, and one has to admit, that most European states have managed to get rid of wide-spread poverty by welfare-state measures. What is forgotten by those well-meaning people: not only that the government has to build up a tremendous bureaucracy and has to take more and more taxes from the people to keep up this system, the "moral hazard" is, that the people are more and more relying on the state for their everyday needs, while the tax burden frustrates their efforts to live of their own means. Simplified: instead of running a self-supporting family business they live as singles waiting for their benefits. Less and less people are able to build up a fortune doing by doing some business, so they may be able to support other people who are in need, instead they envy their neighbours who perhabs have a better life living from benefits.I agree that most people, maybe even morein Europe than in the US, have forgotten what self-reliance and independance from the government means. And without that a lot of the demand for personal liberty has a funny smack. I think there is some good reason for the government to demand from you to stop smoking or to fasten your seat-belts before driving a car, when you expect the goverment to look after you when you grow cancer or had a car accident.
Perhabs the coming economical crisis will make people understand this.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
What would the EU do
if they could no longer print money as they need it. Some say the Euro is backed by gold - but one cannot redeem it in gold. Little fuzzy there, isn't it. The big picture for me is that the citizens who had a vote said "NO" and the ones that had no vote at all the EU came crashing in on them, developed a lot of powers they cannot see themselves giving up at this point. The German people want their Deutch Mark back. The Masters want to rule them all - so far it has been rather easy for them to do that. Maybe David Davis will get a lot of attention as Dr. Paul has and wake everybody up. Maybe this financial crisis will do the EU in.
The Euro
is definetly not backed by gold. It's a fiat currency like the Dollar. The Deutsche Mark was too, but the monetary policy was traditionel more restrictive. That's why we had a relative stable currency.
I presume the Eurozone will break up under the stress of the monetary crisis. In the end no government wants to loose the national election for the sake of the Euro.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
I just found this posted on
www.jsmineset.com
http://www.telegraph.co.u...
U.S. and EU near deal on sharing data
More Big Brother updates:
http://www.iht.com/articl...
The United States and the European Union are nearing completion of an agreement that would allow law enforcement and security agencies to obtain private information - including credit card transactions, travel histories and Internet browsing habits
Bump
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
Parties to end all PARTIES
Now, hear me out because I think this is a really good, fun idea. Have you heard of rent parties? Well, how about throwing a party to end all PARTIES?
It really makes no difference what party people belong to now, as long as they don't talk about dismantling the Central Banks and handing sovereignty to the local government then they aren't for human rights ideals. So, why not celebrate the end of the Parties and raise funds for local candidates? Some of you might be thinking don't we have to choose sides? Well, no you don't. There is no "side" besides those that want your rights taken away and those that don't. My guess is the majority of candidates will come from your own ranks, but don't lose heart as I have found many patriots currently in politics fighting the good fight.
A celebration around the world for freedom would be a great resistance movement that wouldn't alienate anyone and would probably bring people along that you might have never known.
Really, if the world is being dragged toward another conflict-I would rather celebrate our sovereignty and peace.
Love it! jshowell- great idea!
I think it would be hugely successful!!! A Party to end PARTIES!!!
Great idea, jshowell
Though in many political systems, like in Germany, it is hard to bypass political parties. But such a party may also support certain political initiatives like promoting a referendum on the EU Treaty. I'am ready to get together with people from all parts of the political spectrum. People here too are really fed up with the political establishment, but most people are in apathy or preocupied by keeping up their standard of living. A real success for Ron Paul that couldn't be ignored by the MSM here might be a vital spark. But anyway, we are in for the long haul.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
Thanks for the encouragement
It gets kind of stupid after awhile, trying to sort through the different parties from each country. I'm in America, but I know european countries have all sorts of names for their different little movements. This is a BIG movement that transcends parties and nationalities. Basically its about freedom and basically its about time.
May I suggest using the name www.endallparties.com (I've checked and its free) and have a list of all the locations around europe where parties are happening. You can have a great, roving party scene to take down the establishment. I'd even book a flight if I knew there were spontaneous freedom parties across the continent.
Great idea (again) !
You are not afraid running out of ideas ? LOL
I will keep this in mind for a European Campaign for Liberty.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
Sound Money
Sorry, this was meant to be a response to "a crazy idea" by Brit4RonPaul!
To quote Che Guevara:
"Let`s be realistic, let`s try the impossible"...
I would not discard the idea. I think the logic of sound money is pretty easy and compelling. I have even turned my mother into something like a "gold bug", because once you explain the obvious fallacies of the Fiat Money system, people get it - if they are not brainwashed conventional economists or investment professionals or - worst of all - politicians.
In Germany, the fear of inflation is pretty deeply rooted. The only thing we have to overcome is the "it can`t be true, because all the experts do not talk about it"-mindset. But today you can read sound money arguments even in mainstream media outlets, if you look for it.
To stay with my mother: she once thought I was somehow crazy but well-intentioned. Now she cuts out newspaper-articles confirming "my" view and hands them out to me saying: "look, those people say the same thing as you do".
(Bill Bonner, Marc Faber, Peter Schiff and some rare german economists)
And there is a big unifying power in that. All you need to have in common, is love and longing for Liberty.
That`s a huge comparative advantage to the other establishment-political-movements or parties who always exclude one share of the population, because they all work along the "divide et conquer" principle (rich versus poor, left versus right, women versus men, foreigners versus "arborigines" etc.).
--------------------------------------
europe4ronpaul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)
I think a "sound money" platform is the way to go
But I'm starting to think that colognepaulist is right that Europeans should leave both new and existing political parties alone until we have a much larger movement.
In Britain, the government loves to screw with the inflation figures by removing essential items and cramming Chinese consumer electronics into the "basket of goods".
I wonder how Weimar Germany would have reacted to the slogan of "Sound Money"?
By the way, its funny that you also have a Che-related signature on your posts. I like the way you have substituted "Libertad" for "Victoria" in "Until Victory For Ever".
When I see people with Che T Shirts I want to grab them and say "He was right about US foreign policy, but he was wrong about socialism."
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
and another thing...
I was going to edit my comment below, but since the addition relates to the post above...which was apparently misplaced anyway, I'll add it here.
Something that is absolutely crucial in order to make progress in the almost impossible direction I advocate below is finding some level of humility and understanding among those who will stand with you in the struggle for this way of life. I think this is the biggest problem I see in the posts at the Daily Paul. People draw the circle so close to themselves and their own particular views, that they leave no room for the emergence of a broad consensus. Of course, I will be attacked for advocating "compromise" and a host of other unforgivable sins, but I'm really not doing so at all. The most obvious divide I see is in the realm of "social issues." Ron Paul has been fairly successful in personally advocating traditional value for human life and recognition of traditional family structure, responsibility with regard to drug use etc., while at the same time convincing people who violently disagree with him that he has no desire to impose his values on them. In a sense, I think he has been too successful, in that the masses of people who agree with him on social issues do not care to listen to his message because of his more radical following.
For their part, I think the hippie, peacenik, postmodern element of his following has been extremely vocal, many even going to the point of criticizing RP himself for his traditional views---"he is just a tool for our movement, and we will cast him aside when we come to power" etc.. All in all, they are pretty unwelcoming of others with different views. In the mean time, they guarantee that they will remain a fringe movement. And the majority of so called "social conservatives" will continue the battle for control---since they see that as the only option. And the self-righteous "social liberals" will continue to fight for control. When both sides should unite around a different set of values altogether---to curb the wholesale loss of freedom that appears to be on the horizon.
This leads me to an additional point that maybe you Europeans can figure out (while you're figuring out a sure fire way to keep your citizenry capable of preserving the practical employment of your new constitutions). That is, you need to figure out a way to introduce something of the notion of responsibility into your common rallying points. We need to make it possible for people to abuse drugs while still recognizing that it is not in their interest to do so, so that they don't end up so screwed up that they have no option but falling back on the state to take care of them. Of course, they will have screwed up their family relations to the point that relying on them won't be an option. Again, I think this is easy for Ron Paul and I to envision. It is clear that family responsibility (stability) and other aspects of responsibility are crucial to the preservation of a reasonable contract between the government and the citizens. While such responsibility cannot come via government, I believe it must come from somewhere; and Ron Paul doesn't really talk about this much. I'll guess that he doesn't really know how to approach it either.
summary: (1) value of independence and freedom
(2) widespread responsible (personal) behavior and
(3) social stability
(4) humility
These aren't really directly related to politics and voting etc., because if we are to be successful, those things must be put back in their place---which must be one of little importance.
My personal view is that (3) social stability is most easily accomplished via some notion of "family" stability. In fact, all of them are probably most easily accomplished in the sphere of the family.
parties and such
I also think (with our founders) that parties are inherently bad, and especially so with the current obstacles to freedom.
I would suggest that you concentrate on broad based education programs. Concentrate on the children. Find a way to legalize homeschooling.
I think constitutions can be a rallying point as mentioned in Dr. Paul's book (originally an idea due to Jefferson). Also, ours is unique in its underlying principles, but you (in composing new ones for Europe) must keep in mind that ours failed, and perhaps, on that count alone, it merits some serious revision.
Unfortunately, I do not see at the present time a clear direction for revision. It seems that things fall back on the original hope and expectation of the founders that the citizens would have a love of freedom and be educated and informed to that end. It is in these things that the citizenry soon failed. And it is thus with these things (creating such a citizenry) that you should concentrate...if there is any hope at all.
Along these lines and in regard to supporting politicians as mentioned below, I think it must be your/our objective to create a citizenry independent, educated, and informed enough that the mainstream of politicians is first sympathetic to the ideals of liberty and second (and more importantly) not powerful enough to assail them.
ThinkNetwork and Media Outlet
I doubt that working within the parties would effeciently promote libertarian ideas.
I'd rather think an European CFL with an libertarian ThinkNetwork, Austrian Economics and possibly new creative media outlets would be the way to work it in Europe.
The idea of finding a Party to call for sound Euro pretty interesting. For which states would that be applicable?
Ron Paul 2008 - Truth is simple
Ron Paul Rally July 12th
Anyone in Sweden that want to try and get some Ron Paul people in Sweden together and rally outside the USA embassy or perhaps our own riksdagen (our equivalent of congress)??
mail me deus35@hotmail.com
Go, Sweden
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
European Libertarians
Party Politics - honestly from my own experience I 'am unenthusiastic about party politics. You may be succesful if you have a bunch of likewise liberty-minded people on different party levels. But that's unlikely to happen in the current political climate in Europe (correct me if I am wrong for one or the other country, but I am sure about that for Germany). I think it's even more hopeless to start new Libertarian.. or Freedom Parties. That just leads to LaRouche-like secterianism. No, I guess the future for a Liberty movement will be in building up a media-network, educating people, building up grassroots on a local or regional level, networking with like-minded groups in other countries and on a later point promoting certain politicians and initiatives. Think for instance on a campaign against the Lisbon treaty.
Constitution - Germany doesn't have a constitution but a "Basic Law". When it was enacted in 1949 for the territory occupied by the western allies, the "Founding Fathers" didn't want to use the word "constitution" for something they considered improvised until the day of reunification. Even most German's don't know that the last article still provides the "Basic Law" may be superseded by a constitution "passed in free resolution by the German people" Our politicians cowardly refrained after reunification to start a political discussion on a new constitution and the German sheeple in 1990 was more interested in the soccer world championship. I think this article is still a great opportunity for a constitutional campaign. The model for the current "basic law" is in large parts the American constititution, so it has a strong constitutional court you may compare to the Supreme Court and a Bill of Rights. Considering civil rights it's a pretty good constitution though that's threatend by the control freaks in our admininistration. In other parts its pretty corporatistic. For the time being the best thing to do IMHO is to defend the constitution against the growing power of the EU institutions, the haughtyness of the party politicians and the surveillance state envisioned by the government.
No written constitution - I thing Great Britain is the only European country without a written constitution. I don't know if this is really a drawback. A constitution is just as strong as it is rooted in the political life of the people anyway. And as far as I know people in Britain had a strong sense for their liberties. But the Bliar government was pretty bad for that I suppose. The people were lulled by a false prosperity (like in the US) while the "Fight against Terrorism" served as a pretext for more and more surveillance and policing. I thing you first have to get rid of Murdoch and his minions. Somehow.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
This begs the question doesn't it?
You rise good questions
that can't be answered quickly.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
what a great post!
perhaps you could make this post an official headline on here?
A crazy idea occurs to me.
Please don't call me a troll if you hate it ;-) Just explain to me gently why it won't work...
Most (but not all) of the EU has the Euro as it fiat currency. Would a single party of the Eurozone, calling for the Euro become commodity money, be a workable plan?
As Dr Paul explains, commodity money itself would be the biggest restraint on Big Government.
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
I think this is a good idea
I think this is a good idea but bad timing. Who would listen today when Euro is beating dollar badly? There was a Euro anniversary few weeks ago and newpapers were full of articles blessing the Euro currency project.
Political it is an illusion
economical it may work.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
I think that "sound money"...
...would become a rallying cry if inflation approached alarming levels. In that instance, people would be more ready to listen. It is also possible that a resurgent USA - with sound money under President Paul (fingers crossed) - would once more become the envy of the world.
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
perhaps
Fortune Favors the Bold
But the EU would never stand for it. The EU is thoroughly controlled by the banking interests.
I agree that there are powerful vested interests opposed to us.
I think that is equally true of the Fed, European Central Bank, Bank of England or any other central bank right now.
While we are on the subject of powerful vested interests, let's not forget the military industrial complex. They are a particular worry for arms exporters like the US and UK. Then there are all the sinister government "security" agencies who would be extinct...
In Europe, as in the USA, the task of organising against these forces is pretty daunting ;-)
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
Here's a bump
to Freedom lover's world wide. I wonder if you can work within your current parties and steer them towards a more libertarian direction? It is very difficult to start a whole new party. Speak your ideas within the parties I would bet you would get a lot of support. The challenge will be getting heard if it is anything like our media. Maybe start your own website in your country like the DP build it and people will be drawn to the message. Peace
bump
for Liberty!
yes we have to exchange opinions on the matters of which this current this freedom loving river will flow....being a poet that is my way of saying things.
Bump
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
Should EU libertarians
Should EU libertarians belong to existing political parties? If so, which ones?
I don't know any libertarian party that is in EU parliament and I can vote for. The situation in Czech Rep. is that there is one libertarian party - it has 8 members (they don't accept new mem.) and got about 300 (out of approx 5 000 000) last election. Our government call themselves conservatives but they act as nacists (socialism & police state).
On the other side there are few institutions propagating libertarianism but they are split and not cooperating. And ignored, of course.
Are new political parties required?
hell yes :)
Should EU libertarians seek to uphold or amend their existing national constitution?
I vote for amend because our constitution is crap - it features things like mandatory health insurance or states that international law overrides the national one.
Answers
Great Thread!
>Should EU libertarians belong to existing political parties? If so, which ones?
It depends on the parties. I know of no acceptable european party.
>Are new political parties required?
Obviously. Unless until we expect to kill the beast from the outside.
>Should EU libertarians seek to uphold or amend their existing national >constitution?
Depends on the Constitution. The German one is not that much of a help, as a Libertarian. It is nothing compared to the US constitution (sometimes, I think you have to be a european to really FEEL what you lack, when you ain`t got no such thing as a proper constitution...).
>If your country does not possess a clearly defined constitution (e.g. >Britain) how should you proceed?
Rebel as much as you can, as creatively as you can, as peaceful as you can and without "exagerating", unless the situation really recquires it.
That`s my view on it.
Cheerio!
Fabio, Munich, Bavaria
(home of Lukas Podolski and Bastian Schweinsteiger ;-) )
--------------------------------------
europe4ronpaul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)
bump
for Liberty
Good Idea
to start a thread like this to focus our discussion on the DP. I will give my comments on your questions soon.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy