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deflationary hurricanes to hit U.S and U.K

Deflationary Hurricanes to Hit U.S. and U.K.

Congratulations (of sorts) go to the UK as British household debt is highest in history.

British households are now more indebted than those of any other major country in recorded history, it has emerged.

Families in the UK now owe a record 173pc of their incomes in debts, official figures have shown. The ratio of debt to income is higher than any other country in the Group of Seven leading industrialised economies, and is sharply higher than the 129pc of incomes it was five years ago.

Michael Saunders of Citigroup warned that - at 173pc of household incomes - the debt burden is higher even than Japan's when it peaked in 1990, before more than a decade of deflation. Philip Shaw of Investec said: "Although we take the view that the economy will avoid a recession, our confidence is ebbing."
Avoid A Recession?

It will be hard for the US and UK to avoid a depression.

What started as a tropical storm called "Subprime" has intensified in magnitude to engulf Alt-A, HELOCs, credit cards, commercial real estate, municipal bonds, corporate bonds, and the stock market, just as baby boomers are headed for retirement.

If you prefer, you can think of this as Many Hurricanes, Many Eyes.

Barclays Warns Of Financial Storm

Most do not even understand the nature of the storm that is about to hit. Barclays is right at the top of the list. Please consider Barclays warns of a financial storm as Federal Reserve's credibility crumbles.

Barclays Capital has advised clients to batten down the hatches for a worldwide financial storm, warning that the US Federal Reserve has allowed the inflation genie out of the bottle and let its credibility fall "below zero".

"We're in a nasty environment," said Tim Bond, the bank's chief equity strategist. "There is an inflation shock underway. This is going to be very negative for financial assets. We are going into tortoise mood and are retreating into our shell. Investors will do well if they can preserve their wealth."

Barclays Capital said in its closely-watched Global Outlook that US headline inflation would hit 5.5pc by August and the Fed will have to raise interest rates six times by the end of next year to prevent a wage-spiral. If it hesitates, the bond markets will take matters into their own hands. "This is the first test for central banks in 30 years and they have fluffed it. They have zero credibility, and the Fed is negative if that's possible. It has lost all credibility," said Mr Bond.
No Wage Price Spiral

Wage price spirals happen when corporations get into bidding wars over employees, not when they are shoving them out the door by the hundreds of thousands. Mr. Bond must be reporting from Bizarro World. The odds of a wage price spiral in the US are essentially zero as credit is drying up and overcapacity is everywhere you look. Massive Government and Private Sector Job Cuts Are Coming.

This is not Bizarro World, nor it is 1970.

If Barclays is betting on six interest rates hikes in the US with its own money it will likely get carted out in a coffin. Property values are crashing, unemployment is rising, wages are falling, global wage arbitrage is king, and most importantly Peak Credit Has Arrived.

It is impossible to get inflation out of that mix. Berananke could cut interest rates to zero tomorrow and it would not cause inflation, at least as properly defined: a net expansion of money and credit. Banks are strapped for cash. They cannot lend. Businesses do not want to borrow. There is overcapacity everywhere. The Shopping Center Economic Model Is History.

I struggle to see how anyone can get inflation out of that mix. Last Thursday when the stock markets were in a freefall, I asked Is The Inflation Scare Over Yet? Well, I guess it's not.

Fed Has Lost Credibility

However, I will grant Mr. Bond one thing. "The Fed has lost all credibility." I discussed that idea in Things That Have Not Yet Happened in response to Bernanke's absurd claim "Danger of downturn appears to have waned."

Bernanke made that statement on June 9th. On June 26, Bernanke was openly soliciting private equity firms to invest in banks. I discussed this in Fed Looking To Bend Rules To Aid Banks.

Crack-Up Boom In Asia

Actually, I see another statement from Mr. Bond that I agree with, and it is an important one: "Inflation is out of control in Asia. Vietnam has already blown up."

Inflation is indeed out of control in Asia, notably China, India, and Vietnam. That inflation stems from Asia central bankers printing local currency to buy US dollars, in an attempt to keep their export machines going.

Bernanke foolishly calls this a savings glut. Printing money to buy dollars does not constitute savings. It is amazing that a Fed governor does not understand this simple truth.

Besides, it is virtually impossible to have "too much savings". The construct does not even exist!

Peak oil, in conjunction with a crack up inflationary boom in China is masking deflation in the US and pending deflation in the UK. Those focused on rising energy and food prices are missing the boat.

However, I suspect China is going to slam on the brakes after the Olympics. The Shanghai Stock Exchange Index sure acts as if something is coming down the pike.

$SSEC Weekly Chart

click on chart for sharper image

Who's In Control?

Ben Bernake at the Fed, Mervyn King at the Bank of England, and Jean-Claude Trichet at the ECB are not in control of what is about to happen. When it comes to commodity prices,peak oil and China's willingness to allow its economy to overheat are going to be the driving forces. Trichet can hike all he wants and it will not matter much to the price of oil. However, it may crush individual economies in the EU.

This does not mean hiking is wrong (although it likely is), it simply means that hiking to rein in gasoline and food prices, two rather inelastic needs, is beyond silly.

Implications of Peak Credit

When it comes to the collapse in credit, the above Central Banks are powerless to do a thing about it. This is to be expected now that we are on the backside of Peak Credit.

The saturation point has been reached. It took decades but we have finally arrived. None of the financial engineering jobs that fueled this credit boom will ever be needed again. SIVs, Conduits, Toggle Bonds, Covenant Lite loans are all dead for years, more likely decades to come. Add to that liar loans, Pay Option Arms, insane leverage, and numerous other ridiculous lending arrangements. And if those things are not coming back, we do not need Wall Street shills to securitize that garbage and pitch it to unsuspecting suckers.

In addition to financial engineering jobs, there was a boom in commercial real estate, home depots, remodeling companies, landscaping, furniture, appliances, plumbing, heating, air conditioning, restaurants, and even things like grass seed.

There is no source of jobs to replace what has been lost and what will be lost. Discretionary spending is dead. Boomers about to retire are about to get religion. Sadly, it's too late. Savings they thought they had in their house, have now vanished into thin air. It was all a mirage in the first place, but mountains of credit has been extended on the basis of that mirage. Trillions of dollars of imagined wealth has gone up in smoke. Trillions of dollars more are about to.

Deflation Has Set In

It is amusing that in the face of this carnage, many are still screaming inflation, stagflation, or even hyperinflation simply because food and energy prices are rising. Deflation is here and now in the US. Deflation is knocking on the door of the UK and Eurozone. And there is nothing that can be done about it.

Can The Fed Print Its Way Out?

Some will insist that I am wrong, that the Fed can print. Well the Fed can print, but the Fed cannot spend. In addition, the Fed cannot give money away, nor would the Fed even if it could. Finally, the Fed cannot force banks to lend or businesses or consumers to borrow.

Bank credit is contracting with the Fed Funds rate at 2%. Bank credit would not be going much of anywhere even at 0% in my estimation. The reason is simple: banks are insolvent!

The Fed is like the powerless man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. Once peak credit sets in, all the Fed can do is bluff. The notion of a helicopter drop is pure nonsense.

What About A Crack-Up Boom?

We had a crack-up-boom. What else can you call the financial engineering that went with SIVs, Conduits, Toggle Bonds, Covenant Lite loans, Pay Option ARMs, etc., etc? That crack-up-boom is over. And just like every credit boom in history, the backside, once the credit boom ends is deflation. Previous examples include Tulip Mania, the South Sea Bubble, John Law Mississippi scheme, the Great Depression, and the property bust in Japan.

Weimar Germany was not a credit boom, but an example of hyperinflation caused by massive printing to pay for war reparations. Zimbabwe is another example of hyperinflation caused by printing.

What About Congress?

Congress, unlike the Fed, can indeed spend money it does not have. They have already done so with an ill-advised stimulus package. There will indeed be more stimulus packages just as there was in Japan. However, nothing can match the sheer number of jobs created in the housing and commercial real estate booms. And nothing can replace the destruction of wealth that is now taking place in housing and the equity markets.

Attitudes Lead The Way

It took nearly 80 years for people to get as reckless as they did in 1929. 80 years! Few are still alive that went through the great depression. That is the nature of the game. People have to forget what a depression is like to bring about the conditions that cause them. And they did. And they made the same mistakes over again, except larger.

The madness of crowds, however, can only go so far. A significant reversal is now underway. The secular peak in consumption has been reached. A reversal in attitudes towards consumption started with houses, but it’s spreading to cars, boats, and even Starbucks coffee. It will take a long time for attitudes to get back to equilibrium. And attitudes, like pendulums, will not stop at equilibrium once they get there.

The odds of a significant bout of inflation now are about the same as they were in 1929. Next to none. History is about to repeat.

Mike "Mish" Shedlock

Mike "Mish" Shedlock

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as for me and my home, we shall accumulate U.S. dollars

not because I like the debt based money, but to survivie, in my opinion.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Hyperinflationary depression is an oxy-moron

Hyper-inflationary depression is an oxymoron.

SIERRAHPBT, I have read many of your posts and it reminds me of a Mark Twain quote: He said, " I hate to make predictions, especially on the future".

While both you and jzneff have had what amounts to a parts measuring contest in regards to predicting the future of the markets, you now win the bozo contest with your "Hyper-inflationary depression" oxymoron comment.

If you could predict the markets with any accuracy at all, you would be in the billionaire's boys club. Your silly uninformed comments speak for themselves. Add to that the hypocrisy of your " as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD" tag line in every message, while promoting gambling, forgetting " The Golden Rule, and pulling twisted statistics out of your backside that have no basis other than your opinion; and you have proven yourself to be quite the comedy show. Do us all a favor and take your act on the road.

Ha!

"If you could predict the markets with any accuracy at all, you would be in the billionaire's boys club"

Lets say that accountant X just graduated with a MBA and is now working for a huge investment bank. Being top of his class, he was able to land a job making over $90,000 a year. Accountant X has a pretty good idea of what "the future of the markets" is going to be, and habitually makes wise investments with his personal finances. Unfortunately, accountant X is still $200,000 in debt from his student loans from the masters program, which are being paid off by his take home earnings and his profitable investments.

Is accountant X a billionare? No.
Does accountant X have any accuracy when it comes to predicting the markets? Yes.

Therefore, I think we can reasonably conclude that Sierra does not have to be a billionaire to have a somewhat refined knowledge of the market.

Also, are you seriously using Sierra's religious beliefs to discredit his/her ability to understand the financial system? Grow up.

As for me and my home, we

As for me and my home, we shall side with SIERRAHPBT.

Not so

We now have an inflationary recession - expanding money supply and rising prices simultaneous with rising unemployment and declines in business activity. So why not just more of the same but worse? It is what Ron Paul has predicted.

The idea that inflation cures depression is a Keynesian myth. While it is often the case that you have full employment with hyper-inflation, as in Weimar, you also have a drastically declining standard of living.

Please....

grow up! no one here knows everything and we all get our information from different sources. Is any piece of information really 100% fact? relax... this is just a blog and a bunch of people communicating ideas, thoughts and information.

We all have our own beliefs and opinions, just as you have yours. This is not the bible, just a forum. I have seen over 100 posts from Sierrahpbt and never once has he been disrespectful. Even with posts where people oppose his opinions. I think more would side with him here than your silly ass. Respect is key here and your last line makes me angry.

Sierra - I hope you don't let this guy get to you. :)

Hope everyone is having a great day!!!

In my opinion, we are headed

In my opinion, we are headed towards inflation of the currency and not deflation. The Federal Reserve and Government has already proven their willingness to step in and provide more liquidity. Also, consider all that they do to hide inflation's true colors. Over the years various pieces of the inflation index calculations have been removed (food, energy, housing) as well as M3 no longer being reported since 2006. They are doing whatever they can to make it as difficult as possible to see the truth about inflation.

My guess is that inflation has been the plan all along.

GREEDisBAD this is for you

WE HAVE INFLATION NOT DEFLATION
http://www.gold-eagle.com...
:)

You're a brave woman Lysa.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

I KNOW WE HAVE INFLATION TODAY AND I KNOW

GOLD AND SILVER HAVE BEEN IN BULL MARKET as far as I can see.

I'm NOT worried about today. I'M WORRIED ABOUT AFTER THE CRASH that I think will come around 2010 or could be sooner.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

I accept the proposition that a severe recession/depression

is certainly possible and even likely. I do not accept the proposition that the citizens of the U.S. are in for any kind of significant deflationary cycle, at least, not as a primary result of the inflationary cycle we have been experiencing for generations. The comparison with 1929 and the great depression period does not take into account that, although 25% in 1933 were without jobs, the remaining 75% were indeed enjoying the effects of falling prices, finding that they could purchase more goods and services.......with their specie-backed money.

Foreign countries hold nearly $8 Trillion in reserves against our puny $75 Billion worth of foreign currency reserves, so I would certainly agree with the proposition that there is no way for the U.S. Treasury to undertake a viable "defense" of the U.S. dollar with the use of those reserves. While there may indeed by a slowdown in terms of purchasing homes, cars, boats and gourmet coffee, I am afraid that such slowdowns will have little effect on the need of individuals to acquire food and those things that are most necessary to sustain their lives. I would suggest a close reading of Murray Rothbard's "America's Great Depression", if you really think that you're going to be in for falling prices. The historically consistent result of a long cycle of fiat money expansion (inflation) has been a collapse of the currency followed by the institution of a totalitarian regime. "Collapse" does not necessarily mean that the buying value of a currency must fall to absolute zero in order to qualify as a "collapse". The purchasing power of the dollar has been slowly collapsing for some time now. Surely it cannot be the case that people here have failed to notice it in their purchases. When the prices do start to climb to stratospheric levels, as in a period of hyper-inflation, you may not be willing to sell me a loaf of bread for a $1 Federal Reserve Note, but I'll bet you'd be happy to sell it to me for a single 1964 silver Washington quarter or, perhaps, even a 1964 FDR silver dime.

Nice post austrian.

I would be happy to take a pre-65 coin from you but I'm not interested in your real estate... yet.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

I have the book in my hand. Any particular chapter that

you recommend? It looks like I purchased this book in 2000. I probably used if for my own research, but I probably didn't read it cover to cover. To be honest, I don't remember anything about the book at this point. If I read it again, I might remember certain ideas or some data that I used in my analysis sometime in the past.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Question

I understand that 3/4 of the actual paper money of this country is in the hands of foreigners. What happens if it returns (is spent) here in large quantitites?

IT'S DOABLE

How much is there? About 3% of the total money supply?

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

about 700B dollars....

IT'S DOABLE

What is the total money supply?

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Looks to me to be about $70

Looks to me to be about $70 Trillion bucks if we hold only 3% of it and that is figured to be $700B...

Tim

I don't know what the total money supply is but it's quite

obvious to me that $700B is not even close to pay off America's total debt that was reaching $53 Trillion dollars in 2007 according to this web site.
http://mwhodges.home.att....

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

70 Trillion would purchase

70 Trillion would purchase every man, woman, child and acre of land in this country and central and south america.

Tim

So many variables, who knows?

Let's see if I've got this right. If I have $1000.00 in savings, inflation would hurt (decrease buying power) and deflation would help (increase buying power) or if I loaned $1000.00 then inflation would hurt (decrease value of payments received) and deflation would help (increase value of payments received)? But if I borrowed the $1000.00 then inflation would actually help (because I am paying at the original "cheaper" price) and deflation would hurt (because I am paying at the original "expensive" price) or if I am an investor then inflation would help (prices goes up) and deflation would hurt (prices goes down)?

If this is correct then I would think that having some savings and having some good investments should keep you covered either way. And stay out of debt if at all possible. We could be facing more than just inflation/deflation worries, in which case you should also have land and provisions. Prepare for the worst.

"The day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the wicked will be stubble"

Hyperinflationary

Hyperinflationary depression! higher prices for oil, gold , silver, coal, fertilizer, farmland etc..... lower prices for urban homes, equities , stockes , bonds commercial realestate...etc etc...

as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD

In a depression, I think that the demand for oil will decline

significantly, so I don't see how the price of oil would be higher once we go in to a depression.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

The dollar will continue to fall.

Keeping prices high for those holding US dollars.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

interesting

I guess I might confused the definition of deflation and inflation. To me deflation is a decrease in the money supply or price. Inflation is the opposite and we have evidence of this in our food and energy prices up. To someone who understands this... How does this guy define deflation and what is the evidence of this in our economy? Is it the fact that credit is going to become harder to come by? I get it to a certain point, but then I'm confused. Is it going to become impossible to get a loan here soon? Is that the deflationary part of this?

Personally, I worry about DEFLATION. I just

don't understand why so many people worry about hyper-inflation.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

GreedIsBad, it is simply

GreedIsBad, it is simply because governments have, time after time, spent their way out of debt via inflation or hyperinflation, whereas deflation is historically a rare occurence of which the danger to us today is all but zero. Some will point to Japan in the 1990's as an example of deflation, but they are WRONG --- that was just the popping of a real estate bubble, which is NOT the same thing as a general deflation.

Do you know if this government can print money? When

did we win the r3volution?

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Greed, I don't understand

Greed, I don't understand your question.

However, the physical printing of money is NOT the only route to inflation.

Then, maybe you want to watch Money Masters.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Inflation is a tax on the people.

Constitution party information, be sure they're on your state ballot:
http://www.constitutionpa...

do you listen to Ron

do you listen to Ron Paul..... monetization of the debt! do you know what that means? again you will have inflation in some areas, and deflation in some areas..

as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD

How does monetization of the debt create hyper-inflation?

Please, explain. I don't understand how.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

You have to think

of our monetary system in terms of double entry book keeping. That is what is meant by "debt based currency". For every dollar that is created, first a dollar of debt is created. The debt is generated by the Department of the Treasury. This is in the form of bonds, Treasury Notes and Bills. These treasuries are then sold at auction to banks, investment funds, individuals and foreign countries by the Federal Reserve. After they are sold, the FED then pays for these treasuries with FRNs that were printed by the Treasury and sold to the FED for cost of printing that the FED returns to the Treasury at full face value. This is where the national debt comes from and is an entire fiction based on this double entry bookkeeping scam. Now when there are not enough investors buying these treasuries, then they are purchased by the FED. This is the process of monetization of the debt whereby the FRNs are put into circulation without any backing whatsoever. There is little backing to start with, but with monetization, there is none. The best analogy I can come up with is two hermits getting rich by swapping rocks with each other in the desert. The end result of this monetization is inflation worse than normal.

Thank you for the explanation, but what makes you think

that the Fed will sacrifice themselves and their dollar without a limit to help the U.S. government?

Is the Fed some kind of non profit charity organization?

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

First - look at the falling dollar

the dollar is going to lose value rapidly on the international markets. Even as other currencies get into competitive devaluations and even as their currencies lose value, they will not lose value as fast as the dollar.
Second - look at where the US manufacturing infrastructure has gone. It is not in the US but in Mexico, China and other places.
Third - look at what is happening to food and fuel prices. Our agricultural production is all petrochemical based and food prices will continue to go up along with the cost of a barrel of oil.
We are far too dependent on imported fuel and manufactured goods. All of these will see prices steadily increase with an escalation in price that will move along a parabolic curve.
The amount of FRNs in circulation has not increased along with the money supply. Why? Because banks are in such a credit squeeze because of the loan loss provisions they must make and these provisions will also match that parabolic curve. Meanwhile, the FED will increase the monetary supply to the financial institutions as the FED allows them to pawn off their bad debt and the banks will hold the money so that circulation does not increase. The end result will be the consumer being squeezed by rising prices on any non domestically produced good and a lot of those goods domestically produced if they are dependent on petrochemicals.
In the end, the increase in monetary supply will break open and the nation will be flooded with FRNs that have all the value of a roll of charmin.
We are on the verge of a collapse of an asset bubble. The bubble is our currency.

YES

Fortune Favors the Bold

that is a very good explanation. Inflation of total liquidity with deflation of actual FRNs in circulation.

Makes no sense to me. If the

Makes no sense to me. If the Fed is printing paper money like there's no tomorrow, inflation is going to be the result.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

As far as I can see, the Fed is NOT PRINTING PAPER MONEY like

there's no tomorrow. I think that's your mistake right there. In my opinion, so many people are falsely assuming that we have a simple fiat money system that paper money is printed. In my opinion, this is a huge mistake. Please, check how much paper money is actually printed. We have a debt based money system and this is not a kind of fiat money system that you are probbly thinking about, in my opinion. In my opinion, this type of debt based money system will end in a catastrophic deflationary crash when the economy can no longer increase money supply. In my view, the Fed has been making it so easy to borrow money like the economy is no longer capable of increasing money supply (no longer capable of borrowing money). That's a huge red sign flassing, in my view.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

If the Fed isn't creating

If the Fed isn't creating all this new money, then what could be their reason for no longer reporting M3 since 2006?

I believe they are printing money, a lot of it, and they want to make it as difficult as possible for people to verify that as fact.

When Ron Paul says

Fortune Favors the Bold

they just "print the money out of thin air" he does not literally mean they are printing money. He uses this phrase because it is a simple illustration of an idea most people find very complex and confusing.

keep in mind

Fortune Favors the Bold

there is physical species-currency, hypothetical liquidity, and velocity of liquidity

Exactly john2k.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforlib...

Maybe

The private sector may stop borrowing money, but the government will not. In fact, the government will dramatically increase its borrowing from the Fed and may unltimately resort to just plain electronic creation of money. The government will have two choices: inflate or default. I predict that it will inflate. Hyper-inflate, actually

The Fed already creates

The Fed already creates money electronically. I forget the percentages, but I remember it being quite high.

Do you know the % of money supply that is created by the

government?

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

greed go to shadowstats.com

greed go to shadowstats.com m3 is exploding at over 16% and its not only in this country its world wide! china russia etc.... why do you think they quite publishing the m3 figure!

as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD

I think YOU ARE CONFUSING M3 WITH PAPER MONEY.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

We are facing unique economic circumstances

declining employment along with rising energy and food costs are causing deflation to many assets that are bought and held for a long term such as housing, vehicles and other durable goods. At the same time inflationary pressures continue to mount with commodities, food, fuel and other consumable goods. I believe this will build inflationary pressures on precious and base metals and many other commodities while deflationary pressure will continue on the durable goods, at least for the short term. A study of other economies from history that have gone through similar circumstance would indicate that the end result will be inflationary, but the game is still afoot and there are definitely going to be some interesting developments.