"The talk must stop." -- Is it my imagination or is there a lot more pro-Illegal immigrant junk being peddled on the forums?

There's nothing wrong with the basic idea of a fence.

A fence is massively cheaper than guarding the border with soldiers posted every half-mile. And saying that it won't work because some people may get through the fence is a lot like suggesting goats and cattle should be allowed to roam free and graze in whomever's yard they want to, because if you try to fence them in, "they'll just find ways to climb over or under them".

The only reason I don't like the idea of the fence is because I don't trust the federal government to do ANYTHING, and the federal government never does anything inexpensively or honestly. They'll run the cost of a fence up 100 times what it should be, and make it into some sort of high-tech FEMA/OHS Orwellian symbol intended to scare the hell out of people.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

Illegal immigration is only a problem because our economy is suffering and because of our welfare state. If we had a good economy then we would not be complaining about illegal immigrants and we would probably be welcoming them. Building a border is not going to do anything, plus I dont want USA to be like China. The only way to fix this problem is to stop offering them free services and take away the incentives for them to be here.

been on Daily Paul every day, at least the front page, for weeks and weeks.

today is the first day in some time that I've seen immigration come up as a main topic.

your post and someone posting an article by an ex-state-trooper.

I'm in total agreement with those points(that you posted). I'd like to add to that, and I know it's a separate topic, that the "no welfare for illegal immigrants", should be extended to "no welfare for nobody".

I think the states should have the power to police their borders as they see fit. They should not have to wait for the federal government.

I'm curious as to who "their" and "they" are...I guess I'll have to delve deeper into the forums, beyond the front page.

Only then can I tell if it's your imagination. ;-)

Fortune Favors the Bold

I see some sentiment towards "just deport all the illegals." This is not a realistic solution. Even if it were, it would entail a large scale military operation, whose cost in terms of liberty would surely outweigh its benefit. Furthermore, illegal immigration has become so intertwined with our economy that to simply remove them all would wreak havoc.
This problem didn't happen in one day, and there aren't any magic solutions.

Personally, besides ending the subsidization, i think the most helpful thing would be to repeal NAFTA. Notice how the illegal immigration flood started after NAFTA came into effect. The US and Mexico, like the US and China, are currently locked into a parasictic/symbiotic relationship. I describe it as such because it is of benefit to the elites of both countries, while at the expense of those countries' poor and middle class.

Also, try to keep in mind, the illegal immigrants are not evil. They are people acting in their own self interest and the interest of their families, like everyone else.

I think it is up to us to change the nature of the immigration debate. Rather then look it at from the perspective of the "evil" immigrants, we have to re-define it as a problem where both the people of America and Mexico suffer from their corrupt governments and the businesses that support their policies.

The inflation and crashing economy will stop most of the illegals coming over on its own. Maybe we should go to Mexico and find jobs once the dollar tanks lol. Maybe the peso will be worth more then lol doubtful but maybe.

http://www.youtube.com/wa...

A nation without borders is not a nation with enforceable laws.

A nation without enforceable laws is not a nation of Law, and is therefore not a republic.

We should never have open borders, regardless of the fate of the myriad deeply entrenched social welfare programs that feed off taxpayers like a parasitic host. Even if all social welfare spending was eliminated over time, open borders still would be a bad idea.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

http://www.surfthechannel...

and support Ron Paul's positions on illegal immigration.

He has the right answers.

From a libertarian standpoint there are two major problems with the border fence:

1. In order to construct the fence it will require massive amounts of money that comes from guess where? That's right our tax dollars. One can easily imagine the fiscal boondoggle that will take place if this comes to fruition. Guess who the real winners will be...again some corporation like Halliburton will get a no-bid contract and rape the taxpayers. Supporting the fence is, in essence, trusting government to actually be efficient.

2. In order to build the fence the government will have to take the land from private individuals who own it. The fence is not going to be built across national forest. Eminent Domain is already being used ruthlessly to build the sections that have been approved. The Kelo decision was bad and the border fence decision is a huge encroachment on the rights of individuals owning property. Property ownership is a cornerstone to our foundation, allowing government to usurp land owners rights will have negative results for freedom.

Libertarians see the real problem as a supply/demand problem. The welfare system creates a huge obstacle in the free market of labor. Libs. want to end the welfare system, put people to work, and then let the free market work itself out. Remember guys....the fence that can keep them out can keep us in. Think FEMA Camp!

I saw this episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit and they showed that it takes only a few seconds to cut through the fence or get over it. I think not giving them access social programs is a step in the right direction but they aren't coming here for the social programs. They want to work to make the big money. If Mexico would just allow more economic freedom in their country then they wouldn't want to come over here. That's the root of the problem.
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"We will never give up. We will never give in." - Dr. Ron Paul

It is time to start enforcing our laws, and stop pandering. We are the United States of America, We are NOT a third world country. If we stand united on this issue, and just enforce our countries laws I bet they will all start running home. No more welfare or jobs for any illegals period, we the American people are broke and so is our government. We have allowed Socialists in, and its time to clean house.

We have exported these fence jumpers back to the country of origin before, it is time to do it YET AGAIN...

If you are not familiar with Operation WETBACK, then please google it and inform yourself.
mike

First and foremost, there is no such thing as "freedom of migration" in a natural order. People cannot move about as they please. Wherever a person moves, he moves on private property; and private ownership implies the owner’s right to include as well as to exclude others from his property.
http://www.lewrockwell.co...

:
Thank you for the post, spacehabitats

Hey all you bleeding heart libertarians...don't you agree with Dr. Paul's principle of ending the welfare/warfare state??

California and Los Angeles are in a serious budgetary crisis. Schwarzegger has cut down on library and school hours and closed parks to deal with our budget
crisis. Our Mayor Villaragoisa has cut staff, teachers, class and lab hours,
increased fines for parking tickets, impound fees, car registrations, given
us a new monthly 34. trash fee, included in our DWP bill (including renters).
Our schools are overcrowded, hospitals are closing, prisons overflowing,
and our traffic congestion is legendary...we have just been dubbed the most congested city in America.

Could this possibly be a part of our financial woes...

Tuesday, January 08, 2008
Illegal Aliens Cost Los Angeles County Over $1 Billion per Year

If you're on heart medication, take some before reading this:

LOS ANGELES COUNTY -- New statistics from the Department of Public Social Services reveal that illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $37 million in welfare and food stamp allocations in November 2007 – up $3 million dollars from September, announced Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.

Twenty five percent of the all welfare and food stamps benefits is going directly to the children of illegal aliens. Illegals collected over $20 million in welfare assistance for November 2007 and over $16 million in monthly food stamp allocations for a projected annual cost of $444 million.

“This new information shows an alarming increase in the devastating impact Illegal immigration continues to have on Los Angeles County taxpayers,” said Antonovich. “With $220 million for public safety, $400 million for healthcare, and $444 million in welfare allocations, the total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers far exceeds $1 billion a year – not including the millions of dollars for education.”

Posted by Mayor Sam at 1/08/2008 10:27:00 PM
Labels: illegal immigration, los angeles county, mike antonovich
________

http://www.gao.gov/new.it...
GAO Report on cost of educating illegal alien schoolchildren

In California, $6-7000 each student per year, according to this report.
I have now heard it is up to $10,000.

I am all for rounding them up, taking any money they have on them out of their pockets to pay for the fuel and border patrol payrolls, putting them on a bus without even so much as air conditioning to save fuel and American tax payer's money, and shipping them right back over the border. Not even a complimentary bottle of American water for the trip back. Only an application for American citizenship.... printed in ENGLISH ONLY!

The speech is from 2004

American Suicide

Last week there was an immigration overpopulation conference in Washington , DC , filled to capacity by many of America’s finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor by the name of Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, “Mexifornia,” explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California .. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America

The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, “If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let’s destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that ‘An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.’”

“Here is how they do it,” Lamm said:

-”First, to destroy America , turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way:’

The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories o f turmoil, tension, and tragedy.’ Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, Corsicans and Muslims.”

Lamm went on:

-”Second, to destroy America, invent ‘multiculturalism’ and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. Make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal; that there are no cultural differences. Make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

-”Third, we could make the United States an ‘Hispanic Quebec’ without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently:’

The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrism and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.’

Lamm said, “I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities.”

-”Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school.”

-”My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money.

I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of ‘Victim.’ I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority platoon.”

-”My sixth plan for America’s downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precepts. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks.

The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell.

“E. Pluribus Unum” — From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the ‘pluribus’ instead of the ‘Unum,’we will “Balkanize” America as surely as Kosovo.

“Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits. Make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of ‘diversity.’ I would find a word similar to ‘heretic’ in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobe’ halt discussion and debate.

Having made America a bilingual /bicultural country, having established multi-cultism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of ‘Victim,’ I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them.”

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said,

“Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis’s book ‘Mexifornia.’ His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don’t read that book.”
According to the email-this was the rest of the story (as I recvd it):

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness.

Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate ‘diversity.’ American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America Take note of California and other states. To date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell’s book “1984.” In that story, three slogans are engird in the Ministry of Truth building: “War is peace,” “Freedom is slavery,” and “Ignorance is strength.”

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don’t get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

(with long waits,endless paperwork,etc) and reward those who break the law, (with birthright citizenship for children, amnesty, and free medical care),what you get is more lawbreakers, and fewer who hold to the law. Ron Paul hit the bulls-eye here, as usual.

Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips

It has been and is an "invasion".

http://www.americanpatrol...

we need to get back to screening people BEFORE they come into the country. That has been our tradition. For health reasons and for backgrounds, they should all be screened. There also needs to be a cap on how many individuals can enter our borders like in the past. We need to get back to border laws that worked. Whether you take away entitlements or not, illegals will still come over the border if they think they can make money. And yes, employers should be held accountable for hiring illegals, they provide the incentive for immigrants to bypass the system. And no matter how good of a job the government does, there will always be illegals who slip through undetected.

Find a way to make the present policy proffitable, and the .gov or corporation (its all the same) will take care of it in a week.

BT

In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.
~Mark Twain

I favor getting rid of the welfare state that gives entitlements to illegal immigrants. I also favor punishing the employers who hire illegal immigrants. There are 2 groups of people who are in this mess now: the U.S. taxpayers and the illegal immigrants. We can't fight among ourselves and have the corporatists conquer us. But we must agree that the U.S. needs to secure its borders and protect its national sovereignty.