Harry Browne supported so-called "illegal" immigration
Posted July 17th, 2008 by atrickpay
output
"We never solve problems through government." - Harry Browne
Check out this excerpt from his appearance on Meet The Press during his 2000 campaign for the LP:
RUSSERT (interrupting): "So open up the borders to immigration completely?"
BROWNE: "The borders are open! Why is it so hard for people to understand that anyone who wants to get into this country today gets into this country?"
RUSSERT (interrupting again): "And anyone who is here illegally you would make a citizen?"
BROWNE: "I don't care whether or not they're citizens; what I care about is that, if we do have programs to close the borders, once again it will affect you more than it will affect the immigrants. They will make you carry an identity card. You will be stopped by policemen and asked to prove that you are a citizen. Your employer will be sanctioned for inadvertently letting an illegal immigrant go to work in your company. It will not keep the immigrants out, but it will be one more nail in the coffin of freedom in the United States for American citizens."
"The answer is to shut down the welfare state. Shut down the welfare state, and people will filter themselves out. They will only come here for the land of opportunity. If we leave the welfare state intact but close the borders, then we're going to have less freedoms in the United States, and we're still going to have a welfare state, and we're still going to have big government, and were still going to have government prying into every aspect of our lives, as we do now. The answer is to reduce government. We never solve problems through government. We haven't solved the education problem. We haven't solved the healthcare problem. We haven't solved the drug problem. We haven't solved the poverty problem. We haven't solved any of these problems. What makes anybody think that now we're going to close the borders and we're going to solve the immigration problem?"
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Right on Harry Browne!
I think even Alex Jones is starting to get this. On his website he showed the future ROBO COP on a Monterrail along the border.
Add this to the fact the govt wants 20% of the value of your assets if you try to give up your citizenship and leave the country. (Please correct that % if I am wrong).
Add this to the fact that Passports are becoming traceable all over the USA and even outside the USA.
Add this to the fact illegal immigrants are doing more for US inside the anti-big fascist government now... by making false documents, work for untraceable cash only, and they even pay taxes into the system. These check cashing places rip the illegals off when they must take their checks into get cashed because they do not have a social security number. If they get real social security numbers they are adding income claims to the real holders.
Most of all, what is never addressed is Americans right to Hire and fire who they please. It is not as if the whole American work force is one big Union.
Next, what bothers me and perhaps you too is the Mexican Nationalism. Now that is another thing altogether. Should the number of latin americans be allowed to live and work in the USA increase? Yes, and it should be equal to the number living and working in their countries. Should there be a process, a background check for security? Yes, absolutely.
China now has over 400 million people speaking English, that is more people than the 350 million people in the USA. China now has more living people with a genius IQ score than there is living in all of North and South America. Indeed, if we were wise, we would "break bread" with our poorer latin neighbors, because its a numbers game. With a billion plus Chinese, a billion plus Indians, we Americans would be wise to link up with our latin american brothers and sisters. Their countries may just be our savoir, economically. With more aging social security takers, and few young people to shoulder that burden, adding young hard working latin americans may just save us young ones from what the older generation has done to us..... and is doing to us.
I do see a problem with nationalistic illegals being loyal to Mexico. But their feet tell the truth, if given the chance, they would do what it took, be it learning English, paying fines, refusing welfare, all to become Americans as fast as lighting.
I supported Harry Browne back then and I support him now..... long live Harry Browne! May he rest in peace and may we still buy his books and "Find Freedom in an UnFree World".
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
I believe the two agree. I
I believe the two agree.
I too would be for open borders without gov't services to non citizens except I think we should have reciprocal agreements with other countries that would allow citizens to purchase land, hold jobs, own businesses, etc. Thus, if immigrants from Mexico, China, Turkey, Ireland, Indonesia, etc can do all these things in the U.S., then US immigrants to those countries can do the same there. Those countries that restrict such rights to Americans should not have those rights extended to their citizens in the U.S.
This is not that different that what Dr. Paul is saying...
He's talking about not subsidizing immigration through free handouts and entitlements.
Like RP he realizes that a fence is a bad idea... just like the national ID card and police checkpoints and all that is a bad idea.
Stop the free medical care, free education, free money from the government, and enforce the current laws... punish the corporations that hire illegals and deport the illegals that get arrested...
And it will all end.
There are some things which
have always confused me a bit on this Harry Browne form of open borders.
Yes, I think that the elimination of the social programs is a very good step that would help a whole lot of things, beyond even this illegal immigration problem that is the topic on this thread.
But, what of the masses of people who are still illegally here?
I reject the notion that they will all "just go home". It think that's folly, and ignores basic facts.
Facts such as many of these illegals can't get home. They have spent all the money they had to get here, and they may not even any longer have any "home" in Mexico.
Many are living off social programs, and can't "go home" either. They don't have the money to "go home".
Etc.
When you have upwards of 40 million people here, many of which cannot or will not go home, you have a problem
Many of these people will turn to crime, in desperation, if not for other reasons. Many of them are already in street gangs, and criminal street gangs will swell dramatically.
Any way you slice it, it's still alot more profitable to rob rich people than to rob poor people.
The violent crime problem in this country would soar to unimaginable levels.
So, in my view, HB's concept is radically flawed, even at initial inspection, and I shudder to think what other flaws might show up on deeper inspection.
This needs to be looked at seriously.
Some of the ideas are good.
However, these aliens need to be booted out.
They committed crimes against the nation in coming here illegally, and they must pay the penalties for their infractions. They are not citizens, they are not guests, and they are not welcome.
If they want "in", then they can get in line and go thru the proper immigration channels. If they are here illegally, they get booted.
And some form of border barrier needs to be in place, a country without borders is not a country.
If you want world gov't without borders, then state that as your goal.
If you want a US country, then it needs secure borders.
Big T, I disagree....
You write, "If they want "in", then they can get in line and go thru the proper immigration channels."
As someone who has gone through and is still going through the "Legal" way to have my wife come to this country, I can tell you I have learned a lot.
1) There is no line. Coming in illegal is the only option.
Background for you: When the line was legally closed years ago the farmers went hopping mad. Many begged for "temporary harvesting visa" but congress denied it. Many have since found other ways to get their crops harvested, but many have sold and moved on. Just the other day I met a Pennsylvania peach and apple farmer who said, he can't get the help and now all the illegals are feeling unwanted and so are leaving. He and his sons are in a world of hurt. 1250 acres of fruit are sitting to be picked. He hasn't got a worker. Many here in Arizona have literally "picked up their farm", that is relocated themselves down in Mexico.
2) Citizenship is not always what people from other countries want.
Many Americans live for 5, 10, 15 years in Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong on "work visas". Very few ever wish to give up their citizenship. But their local wives and children happily are loyal and citizens of Taiwan, Singapore or Hong Kong. So Americans are no different, it usually takes one generation. In our own case, we have had "Grandma" come in from Colombia on a tourist visa twice. With 3 little boys to raise, she is a big help to mom and me. Each time she comes the agents at the border stamp her visa good for 6 months......so she stays with us 6 months, then flies back home for another 6 months taking care of grandkids there. Then 6 months later, we fly her here again. Well the INS agents apparently only let that happen twice....now they are saying they will deny here valid tourist visa and turn her back around should she enter this country again. Does that make you feel "Safe"? Are you delighted she has been comming and going "legally"? Well now since they have done this, what is our only other options? Now we must file for her to get a Green Card and then to become a USA citizen, that is the only way. Our attorneys told us so. But Grandma does not want to "be an American", she just wants to see her grandkids. So there is the problem, INS legal rules force you to do stuff we don't want to do.
3) As a white American, I found it very troubling and offensive that it was ME, the AMERICAN, who gets inspected by the INS during this "legal" process.
I had to give up 4 years tax returns -- what ever happened to the IRS being the only agency that could see your tax returns?. I had to prove income level, police criminal check (or I might be a sex offender preying on foriegn woman), I had to get photographed, stamped, indexed, and an FBI check. I had to send my fingerprints into the FBI. I had to fill out form after form, and pay fee after fee of hundreds of dollars. Then after the Federal government was done raping me thoroughly, they stamped the inside of my foriegn brides passport good for 3 months. Try popping the question and racing off to marriage after that living hell -- you get just 3 months to do it. Then comes the new name changes, the passport changes, the drivers license --- that was a good one. She had to get a Social Security Card and a Right to Work permit ($600 fee and 8 months wait to process) BEFORE she could get the Drivers License. Oh and don't think of taking your honeymoon back to your brides home country, her Travel Permit ($900) takes 18 months to process. Then comes the constant INS harassment, as in, Read THIS Sign and report to our Field offices at 10:30 Wednesday afternoon. If you have been to get your department of motor vehicles to get your drivers license, you know how it is just multiply by two. You can see how long you must wait for your "appointment" once you get there. Be prepared, bring the whole box of files in case they as for original this or that or proof of this or that.
4) Miguel Cruz and his team of workers do an excellent job on my lawn. Let me repeat that for you. MY LAWN.
As in my property. And with MY property I hire and fire who I dam well please. They do a dam good job, get it done inside an hour, and I pay them $50 cash. That is MY Cash, not YOUR CASH. YET....the State of Arizona, lead by female Democratic liberal Governor Happily signed a bill on immigration against BUSINESSES, --ie MY PROPERTY, that tells me Who I can Hire and Fire with MY OWN MONEY. Stupid neocon republicans loved it, so did those who are threatened by brown skin. If you cannot see by now, I highly resent this. And so should you as a Freedom Loving American. For who I hire and fire and spend my money on is not yours or anyone's business -- one bit! In fact, you and others like you, know nothing of my business, as I know nothing of yours. That is because real Freedom means also, real Privacy when property is respected. That is the way it should be. But with the INS and the IRS, they, Big Govt, gets into yours and into my business. I resent that. I resent they or anyone telling me who should mow my lawn, plant my flowers, or any such thing.
5) How many of us Americans every day break Federal laws, each and every day?
If you listen to Alex Jones, you might be breaking more laws everyday when Marshal Law comes. I find the hollow shrill scream of "Illegals!" as really just a bunch of Puritanical BS about "breaking the law". If you have driven on a federal freeway over the legal speed of 55 mph then you are also "broke the law". You got to work, "illegally".
6) Open borders does not mean, UNSAFE borders. There is no reason why a simple Blue Card could not be issued at the border once a person went through a criminal background check.
Other than that, Freedom is the Answer. I should be free to leave this country too. I resent the attempt by citizens around the world to close off and close up "their" country. The mistake is thinking it is some kind of property, which it is not. Its a "Legal jurisdiction" that is all. When you enter California and leave Arizona, you are leaving not one property to another, no. You are leaving One Legal Jurisdiction and entering another. Same is true when you fly to London from New York.... one legal jurisdiction and into another. If you and your friends all drove down through Mexico, and then down to Panama and across the canal and then to Colombia and over to Venezuela than all the way down to Brazil and finally stopping in Argentina, you would be traveling through many "Legal Jurisdictions", but one thing I as a libertarian contend, not one of those countries has a "RIGHT" to keep me out.
7) The minute we allow governments to put up walls, then you can bet its not going to get better for those INSIDE the wall.
Think of the Berlin Wall, the Iron Curtain, the wall right now that keeps all the Chinese in.
8) We need more Americans.
With a Billion Chinese, a Billion in India, a dying Europe.... we need more Americans. We need Open Borders, -- With Blue Card security checks-- that allows those who flee oppressive regimes a place to live, grow and multiply. We need an America with a 3.0 birth growth rate.
9) We don't have to agree to Multiculturalism to support Open Borders.
10) Human's are not Zoo Animals, cursed to live inside of human made nation-state penitentiaries.
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Disagree
a) "If you want a US country, then it needs secure borders.".
Was it not a country when there were open borders back in the 19th century?
b) "They committed crimes against the nation in coming here illegally, and they must pay the penalties for their infractions."
They might have broke some laws according to the statist theory of law. But what naturals laws if any did they break here?
c) Yes, I'm skeptical that most would "just go home."
However, if the government people stopped making it a "crime" for them to be here, wouldn't they have a much easier time getting jobs (ie. low-paying manual labor)?
Okay
To your points:
a) "Open borders" was never a "policy" in this nation. Any lack of border enforcement was due to inability to manage the task. At least 2 wars of some magnitude resulted from border incursions, ie: Republic of Texas and the Alamo in the 19th century, and the Mexican War in the very early 20th.
b) Well, that's all very interesting. If we ever change our laws to that, then it would be a valid point to bring up.
c) I'm not so sure it would be "much easier" for them to get jobs if it stopped being a crime. After all, they are involved in "tilting the playing field" away from American citizens who must be paid under American law systems and taxes, and not on the black market. As such, it would actually benefit them to remain illegal workers because of the advantage that holds in the existing market vs "legal" workers.
Now, in a real-world "free economic system" with a level playing field, which doesn't exist, then the free market could have a chance to work. However, there is no "free market", so the rules don't apply. It's nice theory, but it has no basis in reality at this time.
Big T...wrote
"Now, in a real-world "free economic system" with a level playing field, which doesn't exist, then the free market could have a chance to work. However, there is no "free market", so the rules don't apply. It's nice theory, but it has no basis in reality at this time."
A free economic system does not assume nor does it need a level playing field to work. If you understood the Price System, then you would understand like Dr Paul does, that the Market cannot be denied. The free market always applies, no matter how much interference and disorder is caused by those that distort it and try to manipulate it. That is the beauty of the Free market. Indeed, if you do not understand how the free market is working everyday, then you are are not seeing "reality at this time".
If working for the black market becomes more attractive to legal workers like you and i, we will do turn to that to protect our assest. But if given half the chance, illegals turn to legal behavior. What is keeping the whole system in turmoil is the rising cost of Justice. For any court case today, anything under $100,000 is just not worth the courts time, or lawyers time. Settling out of court means justice not served. As the cost of justice increases over $100,000 both you and I will soon find it better to be in the black market ....and this is the "latinization of America" that we do not want. This is the REAL threat to America and it all has to do with our rediculus court system.
Lets not forget also that Natural Law underpins our Constitutional Civil Law. Let us also not forget the 3 Proper Roles for Government are Police, Courts, and Self Defense.
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
I think the bottom line is Browne's statement
that: "We never solve problems through government."
Also, in this situation, the government people and their policies are the root of the problem. Making immigration "illegal" is just attacking the branches...
Why should corporations be punished?
What happened to the right of contract?
amero
Harry Browne brought me to the liberty movement when i was a teenager.
steve kubby also made similar arguments many years ago.
harry's right for the most part but the illegals are not going back to the slums of south America even if you end the welfare state.
the NWO wants to destroy north American and their target is the middle class. they want a NAU and it's happening NOW!
----------------------------------------
Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we' e putting up with” Ron Paul
Hmmm, now I have to think about this matter
some more....thought I had it all worked out already...I had been of the thinking that it's ridiculous to fight a "war on terror" over there, when our borders are wide open...and I still feel the same way....
I had previously been of the mindset that with all the loss of jobs, why don't they just hire Americans to patrol the border...
I had already been of the mindset to NOT give illegal aliens welfare, benefits, etc....so that hasn't changed....
I just don't know.....perhaps if the entire article was shown, instead of an excerpt....
I don't know how it could be accomplished, but I still think illegal immigrants have to be deported, wait their turn...
Well now I have something to chew on for awhile...
There is not a full article
It's a transcript from a Meet the Press appearance. I pulled it from here: http://www.lewrockwell.co...
bump for any advocates of the war on "illegal" immigration
Check out Harry's argument. Do you agree with his reasoning?
Hmmmm
He makes a valid argument. It's gonna take more thought now.
Unfortunately....
A border secure enough to keep 'them' out is also secure enough to keep us in. Isn't that the definition of a prison?
Now that the conservatoids run the LP, expect the FREEDOM OF TRAVEL plank to be cut up and thrown on the nationalist bonfire..
THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost
I agree.
That's the same reasoning that Ventura used to magnificently refute the border fence while on Larry King in April!
I agree with you both on
I agree with you both on that, but as a matter of principle, it doesn't change the issues.
What you are saying is that you don't trust Uncle Sam any further than you can throw him. Any sane person would reach the same conclusion, so it's hard to get enthusiastic about a fence even though I agree with it in principle.
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I like Harry Browne and I
I like Harry Browne and I like Libertarians, or at least I used to until they became "The Conservatoid Party" in May 2008. In fact I used to be one for a long time until the rise of the Conservatoids.
But the Open Border position is still wrong.
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Really?
I think his take on immigration was brilliant. On what part of it do you disagree with him?
right on atrickpay!!!
His reasoning is spot on....and I also believe I heard Ron use those same words in Ft. Wayne.....
How I found Freedom in an Unfree World is a great book......
So is Why Government Doesn't Work.....
Rest in Peace Harry!!!!!!
Books
Harry is great. I think he has been the most libertarian LP presidential candidate so far in its existence...
I read "How I Found Freedom" several years back. I want to read it again, and I also what to read Why Government Doesn't Work." Didn't Michael use to have a link to the latter on the bottom right corner of the front page in this site's earlier days?
bump
/ voted for (and met) Harry Browne when he ran.
I have several points of
I have several points of disagreement with Open Borders. I don't disagree with the fundamental libertarian argument that we should cut off all forms of social welfare. We should be doing that regardless of whether we allow illegal immigration or not.
As a philosophical position, though, I don't think Browne's position is detestable. I just disagree with it, seeing its relative merits but seeing mistakes as well.
I do think the federal government's position on Immigration is detestable.
I: It's against the laws of the land. The state should not selectively enforce laws based on whether or not social fads or special interests agree with them. We have too many laws. We should enforce the ones that are worth having, and eliminate the vast majority of the rest.
Selective enforcement of a bewildering variety of laws is something Ayn Rand warned us about in Atlas Shrugged, as a path to slavery. A free man lives in a state with few laws, but fair and universal enforcement of the ones on the books.
II: Hiring illegals is a loophole for employers who want to skirt the bureaucracy of our senseless labor and tax laws. Browne doesn't go far enough proposing elimination of social welfare. We also need to repeal and nullify all Federal labor laws, most small business regulations, and the graduated Income Tax. Only then does a parity begin that takes the "sugar" out of hiring illegal aliens instead of American citizens.
III: It's a constitutional function of national defense to control Immigration.
IV. You can't have national autonomy without borders. A nation without borders is not a nation...it's a region on the map.
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Reply
i) I think that the only valid laws are those in the natural law theory. I only adhere to State laws that are in alignment with natural law--this "law" is not. Why? It often violates a person's right to movement.
ii) I commend those employers that are engaged in self-defense against the State's senseless labor and tax "laws."
iii) I disagree with this function--it often violates a person's right to movement.
iv) Browne isn't proposing no geographical borders--he just wanted no State restriction of general immigration over them.
I commend those employers
I commend those employers that are engaged in self-defense against the State's senseless labor and tax "laws."
I don't necessarily disagree. It's the government, and its senseless stupid laws, overregulation, and selective enforcement of laws where I have my biggest gripe.
I think this boils down to an argument between pure libertarianism and strict constructionist constitutionalism. Pure libertarianism is very desirable compared to the system we have now, but I still prefer the constitutional republic concept.
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