Where Does Your Allegiance Lie: With the Constitution, or the Bible?

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I don't have any particular use for the bible. I view its relationship with law as something akin to pre-Copernican astronomy's influence on modern science. Others are free to feel differently, of course.

Sam Marsh
Musician
http://www.myspace.com/sc...

If you are a strict constructionist of the Constitution, instead of a social-issues liberal, there's no conflict between the Constitution and the Bible.

I'm not saying "this is a Christian nation"--I'm saying "this is a nation with Freedom of Worship". You have a right to free exercise of your religion (whatever it is), and that includes on 'government property' as long as it doesn't involve establishment of a national Church.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

For I am the problem and the solution in my world.

And Jesus was my savior.

And Mohammed was a prophet from God.

Genuflect to Samuel/God to be judged and lament, but not to a Pharaoh, Pope, King or President.

I am unsure, but understanding of the Baba/Bau.

I believe Baha'u'llah/Bahai knows god's true name and Marko Rodin brought it to fame.

Gilgamesh is a mystery to me, but Sumer bloodlines are not.

I am a patriot, not a prostitute. I don't live my life to be remembered. I live it to be forgot.

And let live that live. But be nobody's fool. Subscribe to Choson Ninja on YouTube. A Revolution of Ninja's would be way cool! But those who would be evil, those who would oppose good. Via Cults of personality, televisions, or friends in the hood. If they were to try to harm me in any way. I'd hope hope to not kill them. So I can play them in chess with their nose someday.

"Walls are stronger than the men that defend them."

Ghengis Khan

Why would you ask such a question If not to cause dissent amongst us who love liberty. Your question is divisive. For me, however I would choose the constitution. I cannot expect for you to understand my religious beliefs nor do I wish to try and convince you otherwise. You are an atheist and it is your right to believe in what ever the hell you wish to believe in. I believe in liberty above all else. It is the perfect law. I believe in liberty so much, if you wanted to hang yourself I would ask you how much rope you wanted. It is your life do with it what you will, just don't screw with mine. Don't prick my heel or pick my pocket. I'm tired of seeing these religious threads on here trying to divide us, it is really quite sad. Instead of being a ignorant ass atheist maybe you should try and become an educated atheist and read the bible for what it is. And read it in the light of liberty especially the New Testament. I'm not against you, I'm with you, don't make me choose sides dam it, why can't you believe in liberty! Every Christian on this board believes as you, don't undermine our united spirit by your petty arguments on religion. WE KNOW WHAT LIBERTY MEANS, DO YOU! We must not become that which we are fighting. We were meant to be free. Take your personal agenda and move on, this is about liberty for you, for me, for all of us. Take your stupid ass game and shove it were the sun doesn't shine. This ain't no game.

and sat on the witness stand. They would instruct me to put my hand on the Bible and raise my other hand and swear to tell the truth. The courts are an arm of the Federal government, the Judicial System. The Judicial System decides if the bills that are passed by Congress are Constitutional.

Not sure what you are asking. There are a lot of faiths out there with lots of different biblical laws. Maybe, you need to come with an example where there would be a conflict.

Why can't Christianity and the Constitution co- exist, they have from the beginning?

I have no feeling on this one way or the other. You seem to feel that Christianity is tearing the country apart or upside down. Do I read this correctly? There are people who CALL themselves Christian but I think the real question is. ARE they? Ron Paul is a Christian. He practices his faith. There are people who talk the talk but their are few will walk the talk. Peace

First a personal observation: Once when visiting the Jefferson Memorial in D.C. at sunrise on a peaceful, beautiful, Saturday morning in spring, I was struck by the eternal and spiritual quality of the quotes inscribed on the interior walls of the dome. I concluded that the words had to be inspired by an eternal being... whom I believe to be God. I get the same sense when I read the Constitution.

Second, my life before including God and after are like two very different people. Before God I was always looking for the awesome thing or experience in life. After God, everyday - without fail - brings some awesome experience. An endless flow of grace, mercy, love, miracles, liberty, adventure, personal growth and prosperity.

To me the Bible and The Constitution are inseperable. If I deny either I deny both. But as important and seminal as they both are they are just 'things'. Their value, wisdom, power and 'life' come from God.

If they were both banned or taken from the earth I would be sustained by my relationship to God which cannot be destroyed because it's spiritual and transends all things - even death.

Just like the Bible, I believe, the Constitution was an inspired work. So I also believe they are written on the hearts of men who hunger for their principles.

To answer the question: My allegiance lies with God, the creator of both. And as such, the Bible and the Constitution are instructions and designs to be obeyed.

"PunJab! Bring me my checkbook!"

I suggest you stop trying to stir things up for the wrong reasons. If you like mindless debates, go to MySpace.

--Cliff, Sioux City, Iowa

the word citizen was not in the constitution until the fourteenth amendment.
But the word Citizen was. You need to pay attention to this detail.
Citizen written with a capital "C" "Citizen" has a completely different legal definition than "citizen" written with the lower case "c".
This is very basic but very important. Because if you describe yourself as a citizen with a lower case "c" you have just given up your rights under the first ten amendments to the constitution.
What will it take for people to realize the devil is in the details.
The fourteenth amendment though never ratified but illegally adapted by the congress created a new type of citizen. A citizen with a lower case "c" with limited priviligis and subject to the whim and wishes of congress.
When you make a statement of what you are, you are in fact declaring yourself to be a legal definition which the powers that be will take as fact and hold you to. So if you say you are a citizen you come under a different legal jurisdiction then if you declare yourself to be a Citizen.

Our Constitution was written by men who revered the Bible. They wrote it for people who revered and followed the Bible. They even warned us that the Constitution was written for God fearing, Bible believing, basically moral citizens, and that the whole experiment would fail otherwise. (When you look around today I guess they were right about that) So my answer would be to follow one is to follow the other. The Constitution was written based upon Biblical priciples and I see no conflict there. The question is moot.

Don't go away mad or even go away at all, your dull sword makes our swords sharper.
If you want to deny God's existence that's your right, but when eternity comes you must let God have His right to deny your existence.
Good luck in the end you'll need it.
JonQ.Publik

Freedom is not FREE!!

Religon is an Individual thing.No one should have anything to say about someone elses beliefs. No matter what you believe it is the destiny of mankind to move FORWARD! This said I do not believe that anyone would have to choose, for the Constitution gives each of us to think and believe as we wish. There would never be a circumstance for choosing, because LIBERTY is what each is about.

Individuals must look within themselves to see what is right. A preacher, athesist, or whoremonger is wrong or right. Where we must each look is within and see what WE as individuals can do to help our fellow man. Not government! PEOPLE!!!

Churches serve a good purpose for the enlightenment of certain individuals. So does Gone with the Wind. So does a random act of kindness. Religon is a individual thing. I personally do not want your religion shoved down my throat. I would like YOU to think of the good I have in my heart for mankind and our COUNTRY.

I was raised Baptist with the Hellfire and Brimstone but came of age and realized that whatever you believe, It is all about LOVE our humankind is lost.

Just my $0.02.

Jim

And FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!!!

I would be content to see die. Vive la Constitution! The real thing, however, would not make me choose between the Constitution and it. The Bible itself commands me to uphold the law of the land as long as it does not force me to violate my conscience-so this question is really a counterfactual hypothetical.

BTW- I like you and your way of contrasting ideas.

Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips

I think the reason we were put on this planet is to develop into an advanced, sustainable, prosperous, and peaceful society.

The only way to get there is through self reliance and liberty.

Our constitution will allow us to do just that.

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The pursuit of liberty is addictive... Let's make it contagious.

The Bible. I want to be able to stone my wife and kids to death if they disobey me.
www.paulforronpaul.com

We are all in this together

Hey Phoobaar,

I'm making this post in an effort to get you (and all your atheist friends) to stay here at the dp.

Unfortunately, I have to start by saying I disagree with you about being persecuted and censored and what not. You all are just too sensitive. If you can't deal with the level of religiosity that appears here, quoting bible verses, etc., you need to just go away, suck your thumb in a corner for a while, and grow up.

Having said that, I would be happy to see Nystrom delete many a religious thread (or religious post) because it detracts from the mission of the site (not at all because I'm offended---in fact, maybe because *you* might be offended). It's a delicate line to determine and Nystrom has limited time for such nonsense. But it's clear that many of the religious threads (including your atheist ones) are not tending in any useful direction.

And this is the point. I'd like to see you stay, but if you can't get it through your head that the number of Christians who are actually going to persecute you in any significant way (beyond quoting bible verses and telling you they think you're wrong, when they think you are) is so small that they can almost be completely ignored in general---and certainly can be ignored here on the dp, then you're not really interested in the mission of this site, and I won't miss you if you leave, or lurk, or pout or whatever. Likewise, the Christians who are delusional to the point that they think their religion is going to effect any positive change in this country without the help of those who think it's a bunch of crap probably don't have much to contribute here. I'd like them to get off the evangelistic bandwagon and sensitivity wagons too.

Again, I'm not saying there are not Christians who want to convert or kill all atheists. There are relatively few of them, however. Likewise, I'm sure there are a few atheists who want to convert or kill all Christians. They're not about to take over either.

Secondly, if you're going to post, try to make useful posts. People like you have been repeatedly encouraged by others here with responses stroking your egos and telling you how clever you are and so forth AND that you should turn your energies toward some useful end. Why can't you produce any posts that that are useful to the mission of the site? What is the point of this silly thread for example? As several people have pointed out below, you just have your atheist agenda, and nothing else. How about what is more important to you atheism or liberty? If you were given the choice between giving up your atheism or your liberty, which would it be. To which do you have more allegiance. No doubt you think that is a stupid question. If so, maybe you can see how the other side views your question. Maybe you can grow up and work constructively toward freedom in this country.

You atheists don't need to convert all the Christians in the movement. You Christians don't need to convert all the atheists in the movement. I *shouldn't* need to convince everyone in the movement to become non-religious. If we need to do such things, then there is no hope.

to keep freedom of religion, and all other freedoms in tact. I guess it would depend on how badly I must betray it. God isn't going anywhere. He will be there the next day, to grant forgiveness. That is what he does is it not? The Constitution on the other hand, is fragile and without undivided attention and defense, may disappear into eternity, along with your freedom of religion, and right to send me junkmail about it. Besides, why not betray it, to maintain that which protects it? After all, no matter how devout you may claim to be, there is not a soul here that can say truthfully that they haven't betrayed their faith for far less. We are human, we are all born as sinners. It is our nature to sin.

Tough choice, but someone's gotta do it. I don't hide behind the Godshield and pretend that I am pure and make believe that I am not a sinner. God is not a shield for my political and social convenience, he is simply God.

My allegiance is to the teachings of the Bible. The freedom which concerns the US Constitution is about freedom from an overbearing central government. The freedom which concerns the Bible is freedom from the eternal consequences of my sin--forgiveness. It is also freedom to overcome my sin, resulting in loving my neighbor, loving my enemy. If everyone loved his neighbor as Jesus taught and commanded, we probably would not need any constitution.

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29

That NOT only applies to the government but to "Pastors" as well

In Christ,
Dave

www.lionandlambministry.c...

www.lionandlambtv.com

"I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine. "
Ayn Rand

This pretty much sums up my philosophy, and pretty much falls in line with Ron Paul's ideas of 'rational self-interest'.

So with that said, I would defend whatever document and institution that champions that mantra. Religion has always been the enemy of liberty, and therefore I reject it. The Constitution (as originally intended) comes closer to defending my beliefs than anything else out there, so my choice is obvious. Actually, I think the world would be much better off without any religion, especially Christianity.

"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN

and follow, by way of my oath, the principle that the Constitution exists in order bar me from those actions which it does not specifically set forth as being within my Constitutional "realm"; that is to say, duties and Constitutionally allowed capabilities.

As an individual, I do not recognize the Constitution as presenting any kind of bar or requiring any kind of loyalty from me. It grants me no rights. My rights as an individual exist because of my own existence as a human being and my "rights" are such as existed long antecedent to the organization of the state. They can only be taken away from me by the due process of law and any entity attempting to do so, even by due process of law, must bear the entire burden of showing that I should be stripped of one or more "rights".

Allegience to the bible, or some other such body of religious belief and dogma, is a personal choice made by each individual. The right to believe, or not believe, as one chooses is something I would regard as being absolute. The "right" or decision to engage in physical actions, or inactions, based upon allegience to this or that body of religious belief, is not absolute. For instance, I might choose to follow religious teachings that involve the "need" for human sacrifice, for whatever deeply and firmly held religious reason or reasons, but that does not give me any kind of "right" to actually engage in human sacrifice.

Best regards.

_________________________________________
"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."

I'm going to bump this and then go back into lurk mode, possibly forever this time, although I may come back after the election to add my voice to the "I wrote in Ron Paul" threads.

The site owner has made it clear that Daily Paul is friendly to theists but not to atheists, which really sours it for me. It's one thing dealing with regular members who try to deny us an equal voice, but when the ownership joins them, it has a rather chilling effect. If you have never been oppressed then you probably won't understand that feeling.

/recloak

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